63 replies to this topic

[GreyNovember]

Slap the absolute largest engine you can on a 55 ton frame, that doesn't have lower arm actuators or jump capability, with it's top speed and acceleration dependent on MASC so you can't shoot accurately under full throttle.

The vast majority of your tonnage is tied into ground movement.

Give it Head ECM so you aren't instantly called out at 900m and lose 20% of your armor because the enemy team has the minimum competence to play the game.

You now have about the same level of sustainable firepower as an Arctic Cheetah with 6 CERML, a mech that's 25 tons lighter, but you now have the profile of a mech 25 tons BIGGER, making you easier to hit and counteracting the benefit of your added bulk. This isn't Tabletop where a bonus to TMM happens regardless of how BIG you actually are, unfortunately.

You can strip sinks and go all in on the small laser spam, so now you're kind of like a Nova, except you can't aim properly without Lower arm actuators, and run hotter without the appropriate cooling. Engine, remember?

So you can't really engage LIGHT mechs, which are harder to hit, pack the same amount of firepower on average, and don't have the limit of MASC stopping their aim.

You can't engage most MEDIUM mechs, who will probably out DPS you.

And anything above Medium is a non starter for obvious reasons.

A Shadowcat does "Mobile sniper mech" that you could do with PPCs or ERLL better.

A Viper has a higher base speed where it counts, can jump, and doesn't have to choose between ballistic or energy, even if it has the same "I'm a medium trying to be a light, which sucks because I'd be more effective 5 tons lighter" problem.

A Stormcrow is..., well it's a stormcrow.

You could play it as part of the deathball, but then why are you playing a mech that invests so much tonnage into it's engine only to not use it? Just play Huntsman or Veagle.

So the Lanner's most effective and common successful role is... punching down at people who can't aim and shoot, or play LRM boats with zero awareness and a team that can't see you, letting you sneak up on them as a massive 55 tonner?

Help me, please. The idea of it is cool, but it doesn't hold up in MWO.

[RockmachinE]

Sure, the Black Lanner is not a very good mech, but the nice thing about MWO is you can make almost anything work and have fun with suboptimal mechs too. Its good that not all mechs are equal. It provides a greater challenge and just a different way to play.

There's many things you could do with it. It has ECM and MASC and some of the quirks are quite decent. Join your pack of lights on a flanking adventure. Protect your assaults from light intrusions by engaging them and chasing them off with your speed. Stick to the main group and play it as a support mech, let others take the damage while you make precision strikes against enemy components and weak parts. Bolt on 4xSRM6s and play it as a striker or skirmisher. Slap on a couple of ER Larges and some mediums and play it as a longer range semi - sniper.

Use your speed to peak better. Use the same speed to reposition and attack an enemy mech or group from multiple angles.

GreyNovember, on 22 December 2024 - 03:41 AM, said:

So the Lanner's most effective and common successful role is... punching down at people who can't aim and shoot, or play LRM boats with zero awareness and a team that can't see you, letting you sneak up on them as a massive 55 tonner?
Help me, please. The idea of it is cool, but it doesn't hold up in MWO.

If you wanna play meta sweat and play for score you obviously won't take the BL, but there's lots of fun to be had with it if you get a little creative. At the end of the day not every mech suits every player so its ok to hate on it and just not play it.

[GreyNovember]

RockmachinE, on 22 December 2024 - 04:28 AM, said:

but there's lots of fun to be had with it if you get a little creative. At the end of the day not every mech suits every player so its ok to hate on it and just not play it.

Where is this fun?

I think i mentioned all the above things "you can do with it", and derided them as subpar compared to another chassis in the OP, while also highlighting how it's choice of locked components is so suboptimal compared to every other offering.

I suppose if you LIKE shooting yourself in the foot or running around in something objectively worse at the detriment of everyone who is stuck with you, that's... a kind of fun. But I'd like something the chassis can do BECAUSE of how it's designed, not in spite of it.

[Void Angel]

Your explanations in the OP show you're not thinking about the 'mech accurately. Show me a Nova that has MASC, for example. Its engine cap will limit it, but I've seen some Lanner pilots do strong work, using their ECM and MASC to maneuver for flanking shots safely - and being a somewhat agile firepower platform is what Mediums generally do well.

[Void Angel]

I mean, try this for starters. It has decent sustain and can pop in and out of cover to deliver its skirmishing shots, then relocate quickly to avoid being pinned down and keep the enemy guessing.

Edited by Void Angel, 22 December 2024 - 05:18 AM.

[RockmachinE]

GreyNovember, on 22 December 2024 - 04:58 AM, said:

But I'd like something the chassis can do BECAUSE of how it's designed, not in spite of it.

If you're looking for something the BL does better than other mechs you won't find it.

Why even go through the motion of writing a whole piece, posing your cynicism and criticism in the form of a disingenuous question, then shutting ideas down, if you already know the answer?

"I can't make a mech work, because I'm a rigid player so I'm just gonna complain about it on the forums" basically.

Edited by RockmachinE, 22 December 2024 - 05:30 AM.

[GreyNovember]

Void Angel, on 22 December 2024 - 05:17 AM, said:

I mean, try this for starters. It has decent sustain and can pop in and out of cover to deliver its skirmishing shots, then relocate quickly to avoid being pinned down and keep the enemy guessing.

I've run this as the most effective version I could think of.

It's still just a really big ACH that can't jump, and only runs at 120 without MASC, instead of 140 all the time.

About the same level of sustain in terms of cooling too.

RockmachinE, on 22 December 2024 - 05:24 AM, said:

If you're looking for something the BL does better than other mechs you won't find it.

If you wanna complain about it just do so. Why even go through the motion of writing a whole piece, posing your cynicism and criticism in the form of a disingenuous question, then shutting ideas down, if you already know the answer?

Presumably because someone who actually knows how to drive it will tell me something I don't know.

[RockmachinE]

GreyNovember, on 22 December 2024 - 05:25 AM, said:

Presumably because someone who actually knows how to drive it will tell me something I don't know.

I don't know what kinda magic answers you're looking for then, because there aren't any. If you can't figure it out after 12 years of MWO, it won't help you regardless.

Edited by RockmachinE, 22 December 2024 - 05:45 AM.

[Void Angel]

MASC isn't about overland speed - it's about burst mobility and acceleration. Now, go count up the total durability on an Arctic Cheeta and compare to the Black Lanner. To save you the math, the Lanner has about 41% more armor. It's also a larger 'mech, with a different movement archetype, and has a significant advantage in sustainment and damage (the ACH with 6 ERML only has 11 DHS, which in turn has an outsized impact on cooling, given its heat dissipation quirk.)

Just because something else runs the same loadout, that doesn't make them functionally identical 'mechs. The ACH is going to be less able to sustain damage, and more vulnerable to return fire, while the Lanner of course cannot jump but can reverse back into cover extremely fast. So the way you have to pilot each of those 'mechs is going to be different.

Look at it from your own argument's perspective: since the Lanner can mount the same ERML loadout as the ACH, is the ACH just a more fragile and hot Lanner without MASC? Of course not; the differences between the 'mechs give each one a unique flavor and unique challenges in piloting well - don't mistake sharing a build archetype with being an inferior (or superior) copy.

Edited by Void Angel, 22 December 2024 - 05:53 AM.

[Void Angel]

PS: realistically, the ACH is going to be running at 129kph for a lot of builds, including 5ERML.

[GreyNovember]

Void Angel, on 22 December 2024 - 05:52 AM, said:

MASC isn't about overland speed - it's about burst mobility and acceleration. Now, go count up the total durability on an Arctic Cheeta and compare to the Black Lanner. To save you the math, the Lanner has about 41% more armor. It's also a larger 'mech, with a different movement archetype, and has a significant advantage in sustainment and damage (the ACH with 6 ERML only has 11 DHS, which in turn has an outsized impact on cooling, given its heat dissipation quirk.)

Just because something else runs the same loadout, that doesn't make them functionally identical 'mechs. The ACH is going to be less able to sustain damage, and more vulnerable to return fire, while the Lanner of course cannot jump but can reverse back into cover extremely fast. So the way you have to pilot each of those 'mechs is going to be different.

Look at it from your own argument's perspective: since the Lanner can mount the same ERML loadout as the ACH, is the ACH just a more fragile and hot Lanner without MASC? Of course not; the differences between the 'mechs give each one a unique flavor and unique challenges in piloting well - don't mistake sharing a build archetype with being an inferior (or superior) copy.

I'm running (https://mwo.nav-alph...ac7e7fbf_ACH-SH) on the ACH, with speed quirks on the skill tree. For practical purposes, they feel like they have the same number of alphas before they need to squirrel away. 36 Alpha on a clan mech feels like a charger, but without the superquirks it has on it's small lasers.

I've honestly found the size difference of the Lanner so much of a detriment compared to the Cheetah, that the additional armor doesn't really factor in. You take so many more hits because of the size.

[Ttly]

It's basically the Ice Ferret but with more weapon tonnage.
The MASC really lets it have a lot more weapon tonnage while being just as fast/even more agile (Ice Ferret's bad decel stat for its speed makes it kind of slippery to play if you want to test drive it for comparison), albeit at the cost of having higher skill floor as unless you know how to use it, well it sucks. I recommend binding the MASC toggle key to somewhere more easily reachable like left-alt or Q or something.

Really, the difference is like between Gargoyle-Executioner, or Viper-Shadow Cat, if anything you should be complaining about how bad the non-MASC alternative is, some people could argue something like "Well they're the crutch easy-to-play alternative! They should suck over the MASC one that takes more skill because MASC micro is hard!" but you ask me, the performance gap is just ridiculous, still it's not like the MASC chassis doesn't have a lot of bad variants either that also could use some buffs.

Edited by Ttly, 22 December 2024 - 08:56 AM.

[simon1812]

without all those cons they would be op, and a lot of ppl would be complaining (except those who develop skills), food for thought: in my opinion the mechs should have negative quirks into the mix to offset the "advantages" and truly preventing a mech (or weapon) from being too good.

releasing each month or so patches that make anything a little better and a little worst? really? little adjustment to the rate of fire here, damage there, heat generation, weapon spread, etc, etc. for the sake of a broken idea of "balance"...this game has been around for 10 years... you know right?

that being said.....every mechs has a purpose, or was designed (lore wise) with a specific function in mind) one thing I did (for better or for worst) was read the fluff on each mech I picked (if there is a blackpants legion youtube video on it even better, bigred 40 and mechanical frog are good too) you are not supposed to like every mech mind you!!! I mean I love the timberwolf, very iconic ...also very terrible mech, bad hitpoints, I blame those on bad game design though, like seriously, if an opponent shoot at the LRM pods which are "not located" inside the shoulders but rather, sitting on top of them....why would the whole shoulder go? hm?? oh but if the body patterns of the mech come into play that would be either OP or a NERF or just downright wrong..ok Im ranting now... sorry.

the game gets a lot better when folks play while being mindful that they are part of a team (or at the very least a lance) and what they do and how they do it matters, and load their mech according to the role they want to fulfil.

seriously as you get better at the game, you will see that MWO does has its moment when it is actually fun and exciting...but they are few and far in between...probably because PGI designed the game to cattle towards casuals, who typically rank low when it comes to loyalty ehem...will eventually find a game they like better and simply go.

again sorry for the ranting...hope it helped.

piece of advice: for a while...and I know it is tough...pick a mech (not a light those are hardcore) play without putting any skill point into armor, just everywhere else.

[GreyNovember]

If there ARE people who actually run the Black Lanner in a 6CERML build, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how to actually pilot the damn thing in a way that doesn't feel like how the Cicada is a really big expensive Locust.

Locusts, ironically, absolutely murder me in a BL if they find me.

I'm too slow to escape without MASC constantly being enagaged. And because it's MASC, I can't keep it up forever.

My weapons burn longer, and I lack the torso twist & pitch to keep up with their circling even if I was packing weapons that would threaten them more than they threaten me.

I'm larger, and my legs are easier to hit and immobilize.

I'm sure SOMEONE out there is better than me and I'm OBVIOUSLY just bad, but hey, chime in if you're that guy.

[Ttly]

GreyNovember, on 22 December 2024 - 04:03 PM, said:

-snip-

Well for starters you can just not go walk around on your own (probably because you used the MASC to overextend) and have some teammates around because volume of fire is always a great way to deter lights if accuracy isn't possible for whatever reason. And from that Locust's perspective getting hit at all means losing a lot of percentage of its HP. And well yeah, what else is that Locust supposed to do? Go walk into the rest of your team instead? No, it made the right play to go for an isolated guy like some overextended Black Lanner.
I'd say something like "turn your arm-lock off" but the BKL doesn't have lower arm actuators though, so there's that too I guess.

Edited by Ttly, 22 December 2024 - 04:17 PM.

[RockmachinE]

GreyNovember, on 22 December 2024 - 04:03 PM, said:

If there ARE people who actually run the Black Lanner in a 6CERML build, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how to actually pilot the damn thing in a way that doesn't feel like how the Cicada is a really big expensive Locust.

Locusts, ironically, absolutely murder me in a BL if they find me.

I'm too slow to escape without MASC constantly being enagaged. And because it's MASC, I can't keep it up forever.

My weapons burn longer, and I lack the torso twist & pitch to keep up with their circling even if I was packing weapons that would threaten them more than they threaten me.

I'm larger, and my legs are easier to hit and immobilize.

I'm sure SOMEONE out there is better than me and I'm OBVIOUSLY just bad, but hey, chime in if you're that guy.

just don't play a lanner

[GreyNovember]

Ttly, on 22 December 2024 - 04:14 PM, said:

Well for starters you can just not go walk around on your own (probably because you used the MASC to overextend) and have some teammates around because volume of fire is always a great way to deter lights if accuracy isn't possible for whatever reason. And from that Locust's perspective getting hit at all means losing a lot of percentage of its HP. And well yeah, what else is that Locust supposed to do? Go walk into the rest of your team instead? No, it made the right play to go for an isolated guy like some overextended Black Lanner.
I'd say something like "turn your arm-lock off" but the BKL doesn't have lower arm actuators though, so there's that too I guess.

My expectation is that a skirmisher that's twice it's weight and almost it's speed going out to find targets should have about parity to threaten the lighter mech, and not be the equivalent of an LRM boat left behind.

But yes, you're correct. The Locust engaged correctly, and I was out of position.

[Void Angel]

GreyNovember, on 22 December 2024 - 04:03 PM, said:

I'm sure SOMEONE out there is better than me and I'm OBVIOUSLY just bad, but hey, chime in if you're that guy.

You asked for advice; come one, man. It's not about judging your skillset; it's about explaining TTPs and best practices. It's also about analyzing data; before skills, that ACH you linked has 2.3 AtO; the Lanner has 3.6. That's a big difference, and it's why the Lanner has almost 50% more sustained DPS in MechDB; the Lanner is cooling faster than the ACH, even with the ACH's 10% dissipation quirk. That difference is going to tell, if you can position yourself to coordinate with your team.

As for that Locust: cERML can be hard matchup against any fast 'mech, purely because of their burn time, as you've noticed. But you can still drive that Locust off or kill him, because you have half again his armor, three times his structure (4x on most components) - and MASC. Use MASC to snap around to face him, and hammer him with your 36-point alpha. I guarantee he will not like it; and if he still feels like fighting, you can keep on blasting him. Walk backwards, then swap turn directions with torso and feed, triggering MASC to keep him in your front arc as much as possible. He will not enjoy his day.

I'm not God's gift to Battlemechs, or anything... but I did get my Ace of Spades on a Spider 5D; I'm pretty decent at piloting Lights, and while I can harass a Lanner with your build, I would not want to go toe to toe with you in a death circle. If a Light is just circling you to death, there are TTPs to deal with that; it's often insanely risky against a MASC-equipped enemy.

If you feel the need to escape, you should be close enough to your team to do that; Mediums can range far out from the team with certain builds, but it's often better to stay close-in and just work the flanks. That will also help you take less return fire as well; your MASC burst speed means you can pop out of cover just after someone else on your team exposes themselves to trade, and be back in cover before the people that shot at your teammate can effectively retarget onto you - and your high base speed with MASC allows you to reposition quickly and unpredictably if someone starts trying to put you down.

Edited by Void Angel, 22 December 2024 - 05:38 PM.

[GreyNovember]

Ah, that wasn't directed at anyone in particular.

I'm used to preemptively nipping "Git gud" in the bud as a response to anything that could be remotely interpreted as whining.

I didn't consider interrupting the death turn by changing directions. That was informative, thank you.

[Meep Meep]

This is how I ran mine when I got one for free from an event ages ago. It's meant to trade not sustain and the masc/ecm combo works a treat for ridge poking. Dump all your points into the heat skills along with hard braking then parcel out the rest as you see fit.

bkl-a

Are there better mechs for this? Sure. But half the fun is making sub optimal mechs 'work'.