18 replies to this topic

[Inatu Elimor]

New development in MWO: the stealthfighter group that hit you in the back. This way we will end up all using stealthfighters excluding all others. Plz balance.

Edited by Inatu Elimor, 10 March 2024 - 09:30 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

So someone flanked you and shot you in the back? That’s good maneuvering on their part.

Does this happen often to you? That might indicate your choice of field position makes you a more vulnerable target, such as running a slow mech that gets left behind a lot.

[ambosen]

Speaking from actual experience, 95% of the time players mechs using stealth armor don't accomplish much of anything at all except significantly cutting down on how much they actually spend firing at mechs on the opposite team, getting lost, getting themselves killed, and a lot of times all three simultaneously. Iif you want to avoid being seen by the enemy team, regular ECM or just a good awareness of your surroundings and what's going on around you will do a helluva lot more to let you find those depressingly rare flanking oppertunities on relatively high priority but vulnerable from the rear mechs..

Part of this is just due to how horribly designed a lot of the newer or redesigned maps are for allowing mechs to effectively flank against even a marginally competent team that can manage moving as a group and a worryingly large amount of the ECM carrier mechs that can equip stealth armor being heavies or assaults like the Marauder and Atlas, which let's just be honest here doesn't really make any sense to begin with.

It doesn't help that a lot of people once equipping a stealth system for the first time or oft times long after the first time become convinced they're truly invisible or invulnerable and seem compelled to take the dumbest risks possible, either.

Edited by ambosen, 10 March 2024 - 03:34 PM.

[Ttly]

ambosen, on 10 March 2024 - 03:32 PM, said:

Speaking from actual experience, 95% of the time players mechs using stealth armor don't accomplish much of anything at all except significantly cutting down on how much they actually spend firing at mechs on the opposite team, getting lost, getting themselves killed, and a lot of times all three simultaneously. Iif you want to avoid being seen by the enemy team, regular ECM or just a good awareness of your surroundings and what's going on around you will do a helluva lot more to let you find those depressingly rare flanking oppertunities on relatively high priority but vulnerable from the rear mechs..

Part of this is just due to how horribly designed a lot of the newer or redesigned maps are for allowing mechs to effectively flank against even a marginally competent team that can manage moving as a group and a worryingly large amount of the ECM carrier mechs that can equip stealth armor being heavies or assaults like the Marauder and Atlas, which let's just be honest here doesn't really make any sense to begin with.

No, don't you see?
Or rather you can't see that giant pink Atlas because it's invisible!

Really though, I agree on your point that in most cases ECM/Stealth is a noob trap/crutch in most cases, but that doesn't make it any less effective against your average player and that the map designs doesn't really help.
The better question would be: Should new players have an counter against these?
Let's say, allow active probe to spot stealth mechs within the same range they allow locking onto powered down mechs.
Experienced players wouldn't need to do this as they can use their eyeballs/look at seismic and turn on NV/Thermal to shoot at the MG locust obnoxiously zipping around their legs and use that tonnage for a heat sink or more weapons instead but hey, you'd be giving new players the crutch choice of: "sacrifice tonnage for a probe so you'd notice that stealth mech".

Edited by Ttly, 10 March 2024 - 03:40 PM.

[Horseman]

Ttly, on 10 March 2024 - 03:35 PM, said:

The better question would be: Should new players have an counter against these?

Eyeball mark 1, any PPC type, TAG.

[1Exitar1]

Sounds to me like lack of situational awareness. Pay attention to your surroundings. Listen to all the sounds and not just the PEW PEW sounds. If they aren't getting close enough to make sounds you can hear, then you need to move out of their line of sight and torso twist.
I play a lot of stealth mechs, just ECM, not stealth armor, and I still get spotted like I am sporting that neon pink and I'm NARC'd, when I'm not. I find it amazing how easily I am spotted.

[Inatu Elimor]

A little mech fairy tale

The rabbits had a rather good life in their bubble. They agreed upon everything; after all, they were the chosen ones, the impressive tier "1" family, the best ones, the ones in the the know! That family was superior to all rabbit families... They had no mercy for the lesser families that suffered from famine. That was just their own stupid fault !The advise they gave to them was not really meant to relieve their brothers from pain and suffering but rather to pat each other on the back. That was a really good feel.
Also: they got food from the butcher everyday; they considered him a very good guy.

One day one of the tier 1 rabbits was slaughtered. The rabbits were amazed and shocked. Hoe could that happen ?? They were ashamed also... Those things only happened to the ignorant stupid tier 4 and 5 families.

To tell the truth: a rabbit from a lesser family had earlier on warned them... But the very cockyness of the superiors prohibited them to listen, after all, thet were in the right until eternity !

The rabit from the lesser decided to get his family together. He explained to them that using the same tactics from the enemy could at least end up in a stalemate; with some luck probably a win? So they did some training and... guess what...?
No more famine anymore !!

End good, all good !

[Ttly]

Horseman, on 11 March 2024 - 01:46 PM, said:

Eyeball mark 1, any PPC type, TAG.

Whoa!
Those same new/bad players that died to stealth mechs can actually notice them, hit them with a PPC/keep TAG on top of them to counter stealth?! I am shocked!
Clearly stealth doesn't need any counter whatsoever in that case if those t5-t4 players can hit that zipply stealth light with those weapons and other ones just fine.

Edited by Ttly, 14 March 2024 - 01:18 AM.

[Curccu]

Ttly, on 14 March 2024 - 01:03 AM, said:

Whoa!
Those same new/bad players that died to stealth mechs can actually notice them, hit them with a PPC/keep TAG on top of them to counter stealth?! I am shocked!
Clearly stealth doesn't need any counter whatsoever in that case if those t5-t4 players can hit that zipply stealth light with those weapons and other ones just fine.

If those potatoes cannot hit stealth lights with TAG or PPC they cannot hit them with lazors either so stealth part is irrelevant? (Yes I know streaks but locking them is harder than hitting light with hitscan weapon.)

[Ttly]

Curccu, on 14 March 2024 - 01:41 AM, said:

If those potatoes cannot hit stealth lights with TAG or PPC they cannot hit them with lazors either so stealth part is irrelevant? (Yes I know streaks but locking them is harder than hitting light with hitscan weapon.)

Yeah, probably not.
But at least they'd feel better that they have a "counter" if they could detect/spot with red icon if active probes lets them to if only as a crutch option which was my original argument.

[PsionicMantis]

Im gonna suggest the much hated seismic sensor node, the one trick stealth mechs hate. Although it only works within a certain range and if you are standing still.

[TravelingMaster]

1Exitar1, on 12 March 2024 - 07:51 PM, said:

Sounds to me like lack of situational awareness. Pay attention to your surroundings. Listen to all the sounds and not just the PEW PEW sounds. If they aren't getting close enough to make sounds you can hear, then you need to move out of their line of sight and torso twist.
I play a lot of stealth mechs, just ECM, not stealth armor, and I still get spotted like I am sporting that neon pink and I'm NARC'd, when I'm not. I find it amazing how easily I am spotted.

Do keep in mind not everyone can hear all the game sounds, even a slight hearing impairment could result in you not being able to hear someone walking behind you.

The other stuff applies, of course, just wanted to point that out.

[ScrapIron Prime]

PsionicMantis, on 14 March 2024 - 07:08 AM, said:

Im gonna suggest the much hated seismic sensor node, the one trick stealth mechs hate. Although it only works within a certain range and if you are standing still.

Right, but you don't have to stand still for very long. Peek out, fire, reverse, back to cover, stop... you get seismic working every time you stop or reverse. You've at least got micro laser range covered, and most of small laser range as well.

[Horseman]

Ttly, on 14 March 2024 - 01:03 AM, said:

Those same new/bad players that died to stealth mechs can actually notice them,

They have eyes, right?

Quote

hit them with a PPC/keep TAG on top of them to counter stealth?!

As a matter of fact, weapon systems are not gated by your tier...

Quote

Clearly stealth doesn't need any counter whatsoever in that case if those t5-t4 players can hit that zipply stealth light with those weapons and other ones just fine.

Stealth already has counters that the complainers are dismissing.
Also, if you can't hit the stealth light with your weapons, what do you plan to use even if you somehow could force it out of stealth at will? Harsh language?

[Cyborne Elemental]

With ECM nerfed, and Stealth being a huge investment in podspace vs tonnage its fairly well balanced.

True, stealth Flea, Locust, can be pests, but they're alot bigger threats when they use that tonnage for weapons, speed, or heat sinks.

There are only 2-3 big mechs that can really make use of stealth for positioning.
Besides many maps make or break the usefulness of stealth vs just regular ECM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

The one that always gets me is how many people decline to take SA on their RVN-3L 2x ERLL or CDA-3M 3x ERLL sniper builds, it's pretty much the perfect tool for gaining advantage in long-range trades and relocating without being followed. But then the people who play those builds are usually spuds who sit in the same spot for 10 minutes doing chip damage at 1200m.

That's the real secret counter to SA: 90%+ of people who play with it don't understand how to use it, they just act like it's an invisibility cloak that'll allow them to walk straight up to the enemy without being seen. I can't count how many times I've seen a Locust or Flea just standing still in the open shooting at someone like they think nobody will notice the lasers.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Alexander of Macedon, on 15 March 2024 - 08:38 AM, said:

The one that always gets me is how many people decline to take SA on their RVN-3L 2x ERLL or CDA-3M 3x ERLL sniper builds, it's pretty much the perfect tool for gaining advantage in long-range trades and relocating without being followed. But then the people who play those builds are usually spuds who sit in the same spot for 10 minutes doing chip damage at 1200m.

I don't use Stealth armor on that Raven because I use it to escort an assault mech. Pair up with another sniper, shoot what they shoot, provide them ECM and Seismic Sensors with a 400m range! Force mulitplier and early warning system.

Of course if I pick a potato of a sniper to team up with I die a hideous death, but hey, them's the breaks of playing a team build in the solo queue!

[v4skunk]

Ttly, on 10 March 2024 - 03:35 PM, said:

No, don't you see?
Or rather you can't see that giant pink Atlas because it's invisible!

Really though, I agree on your point that in most cases ECM/Stealth is a noob trap/crutch in most cases, but that doesn't make it any less effective against your average player and that the map designs doesn't really help.
The better question would be: Should new players have an counter against these?
Let's say, allow active probe to spot stealth mechs within the same range they allow locking onto powered down mechs.
Experienced players wouldn't need to do this as they can use their eyeballs/look at seismic and turn on NV/Thermal to shoot at the MG locust obnoxiously zipping around their legs and use that tonnage for a heat sink or more weapons instead but hey, you'd be giving new players the crutch choice of: "sacrifice tonnage for a probe so you'd notice that stealth mech".

Stealth armour doesn't show up on thermal vision.
Stealth also works best at sniping or brawling at close range.

[ambosen]

Honestly, I think a major part of the reason why there's so many people complaining about stealth armor and ECM all the time is because they cannot differentiate between a mech having these systems, and a player who can operate a mech in a relatively stealthy manner.

This may come as a shock to some people, but these are not the same thing at all. Even before ECM and stealth armor was in the game, players finding unexpected routes to attack from, timing enemy mech movements to pick off vulnerable targets at the back, taking advantage of mechs already engaged and laser focused on one target to the detriment they were actually being engaged by several was already a thing. It will continue to be a thing even if such systems are somehow removed entirely.

I legitimately have a hard time in this game finding people who can seemingly understand the mere concept that stealth involves a concious choice to play in a very different manner then most players, regardless of relative skill level are attuned to. And that it's not just an equipment piece or skill perk point. Yes, these thiings can potentally help, but they're functionally useless to someone who plays like they think this is Team Frotress circa 2009, and WM1 pyro was ever actually a thing.