35 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

I would rather they didn't try to make a Plasma Cannon and just directly make a clan LPPC in its place

I am not sure it would be worth it to introduce a wonky weapon when Clans would use the versatility of a LPPC considering their lack of PPC options

[Duke Falcon]

Plasma cannon is a bit disappointing now. A standard cER-PPC worth more than two plasmas...

But I had the wild guess Plasmas would be subject of "some" changes rather soon...

[Cyborne Elemental]

First initial thoughts on the new weapons.

1. Plasma cannon is just as I expected, its 1/2 of an ERPPC, but retains clan velocity with decent range.
The heat aspect is 100% not lore based on what the PLC was, being a low heat, ammo based Nerf Dart that melts stuff.

2. MAGSHOT / AP Gauss is nice, but only when boated, its basically a ultra light shortrange AC-2.

3.Beam Laser, a RAC-2 worth of damage with no ammo, and 3x heat
Capped at 2, with no other large laser pairing, it seems lackluster, and while it has range, its very hot, but no cooldown or duration means you can put some damage on anything you see for as long as you can see it.

3. Thunderbolt.. Lock-on Missiles have been given the Big old Nerf Hammer, LRM/SSRM/ATM really do not work in a fast paced arena deathmatch game where instant damage lasers and ballistics match ranges. Artillery support is only really useful on coordinated teams, and even then its hard to use.

4. PAC's are weird, they're very short range, but I guess we don't have Protomechs...
LAC's are good, especially because of podspace and sync for range/velocity with their big brother standards.
LAC-2 and AC-5, LAC-5 and AC-10.

[MechMaster059]

Cyborne Elemental, on 20 March 2024 - 12:18 PM, said:

...

1. ...
The heat aspect is 100% not lore based on what the PLC was, being a low heat, ammo based Nerf Dart that melts stuff.

...

This is totally incorrect.

In the lore, the Plasmas Cannon will instantly kill infantry (not relevant to MWO) and inflict 2D6 heat damage upon an enemy mech for a cost of 7 heat as can be seen here:
https://www.sarna.ne...i/Plasma_Cannon (weapon stats)
https://www.goonhamm...plasma-cannons/ (confirmation of 2D6 heat damage, 1st paragraph under "Good Plasma Cannon Usage")

7 heat is not "low heat" for a 3 Ton weapon. Inflicting 2D6 heat damage and 0 physical damage means heat damage is the primary threat and motivation to equip the weapon.

2D6 heat damage would be extremely dangerous in MWO and would put the weapon in "stun lock" territory. That's why I didn't advocate for it. 2.5 heat damage on a 3.5s cooldown is nowhere near "stun lock" territory and incomparable to a flamer. The firing mech is guaranteed to over-heat themselves faster firing the weapon than the target in 1v1. The advantage to the firing mech would be its ability to somewhat inhibit the return fire of the targeted mech which would likely result in them having to chain fire their weapons to prevent over heating. Targeted mechs built around machine guns or Gauss would be totally immune to this. Assault mechs with large numbers of heat sinks + heat capacity skills would be highly resistant to this effect. There's no need to panic folks.

The only danger of a "stun lock" comes from being ganged up on by 2+ mechs built around Plasma Cannons. Being ganged up on is almost always a losing situation anyway so one needs to be careful before claiming heat damage would be OP under such circumstances.

[Gasboy]

Quote

The only danger of a "stun lock" comes from being ganged up on by 2+ mechs built around Plasma Cannons. Being ganged up on is almost always a losing situation anyway so one needs to be careful before claiming heat damage would be OP under such circumstances.

It's not about geting ganged up on. It's about not being able to do anything about it. I can at least try to take someone with me if I'm being ganged up on, and I can accept dying in those circumstances. It's incredibly frustrating to be totally unable to shoot back in that circumstance.

[1Exitar1]

Can't you stun lock with flamers? I ask because I have never used them. I have seen videos of people getting shut down by them though and when they start back up, you, usually, can't fire and heat generating weapons because you will shut down again. If flamers can shut you down, why shouldn't plasma cannons?

I am not trying to be argumentative. I am just trying to understand.

[MechMaster059]

Gasboy, on 20 March 2024 - 04:02 PM, said:

It's not about geting ganged up on. It's about not being able to do anything about it. I can at least try to take someone with me if I'm being ganged up on, and I can accept dying in those circumstances. It's incredibly frustrating to be totally unable to shoot back in that circumstance.

The weapon has a cooldown. If you're being spammed by Plasma Cannon heat then the players doing the spamming are also generating large amounts of heat on themselves. If the weapon hits an arm or a leg in does 1/3 less heat damage. Heat from external sources cannot push your mech beyond 90% of the heat bar.

If you're playing a heavy or an assault, you'll likely have a significant amount of heat dissipation to mitigate against the effect. If you're playing a light or medium then you likely can just run away or take cover.

This discussion is so silly. People are acting like it's a forgone conclusion that putting some heat damage onto Plasma Cannons would instantly wreck the game despite it not having even been tried.

1Exitar1, on 20 March 2024 - 05:37 PM, said:

If flamers can shut you down, why shouldn't plasma cannons?

...

I have used flamers. They're generally weak weapons that don't work well. That being said, they're extremely strong against certain builds like PPC heavy builds for example. Heat from external sources cannot bring an enemy mech's heat bar above 90%. Shutting down an enemy mech requires them to fire their weapons at 90% thus pushing themselves over the top into shut down. It's legit for flamers to be able to do this because of their point-blank range which guarantees the firing mech is putting themselves in danger along with the fact that they do a miniscule amount of physical damage.

I'm NOT advocating for Plasma Cannons being able to do this unless ganged up on by 3+ mechs. 2 mechs would be very debilitating, 1 mech would be a toss-up depending upon builds and other factors. If you're being ganged up on by 3+ mechs you're probably dead anyway so crying over heat damage is a moot point.

Edited by MechMaster059, 20 March 2024 - 05:43 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1Exitar1, on 20 March 2024 - 05:37 PM, said:

Can't you stun lock with flamers? I ask because I have never used them. I have seen videos of people getting shut down by them though and when they start back up, you, usually, can't fire and heat generating weapons because you will shut down again. If flamers can shut you down, why shouldn't plasma cannons?

I am not trying to be argumentative. I am just trying to understand.

Yes you can, which is why they got nerfed a long time ago and have such a short range. TBH, I hope flamers get reworked into energy versions of the AP Gauss (AP Plasma if you will) instead of how they function now since at least on the IS side, an energy machine gun pretty much already exists in the xpulse.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 20 March 2024 - 06:03 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 20 March 2024 - 05:37 PM, said:

I have used flamers. They're generally weak weapons that don't work well. That being said, they're extremely strong against certain builds like PPC heavy builds for example. Heat from external sources cannot bring an enemy mech's heat bar above 90%. Shutting down an enemy mech requires them to fire their weapons at 90% thus pushing themselves over the top into shut down. It's legit for flamers to be able to do this because of their point-blank range which guarantees the firing mech is putting themselves in danger along with the fact that they do a miniscule amount of physical damage.

They're useful in brawls where the range is less of a short coming, almost every build has to generate heat to damage thus why its considered a "stun-lock" mechanic because it can keep you at a point that you can't do anything (without paying the consequences). It doesn't matter that you can't shutdown a mech on your own, it matters that they can put you in that position in the first place such that you are pretty much forced to override. It's a gimmick and its why several people hate the idea of heat damage as a mechanic.

[MechMaster059]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 20 March 2024 - 06:10 PM, said:

They're useful in brawls where the range is less of a short coming, almost every build has to generate heat to damage thus why its considered a "stun-lock" mechanic because it can keep you at a point that you can't do anything (without paying the consequences). It doesn't matter that you can't shutdown a mech on your own, it matters that they can put you in that position in the first place such that you are pretty much forced to override. It's a gimmick and its why several people hate the idea of heat damage as a mechanic.

I have both used flamers on my BKL-D and been a victim of flamers. I have very rarely been killed by them. They're usually just an annoyance. The flamer heat bar limits how long they can be used so if you can stay alive long enough for their flamer bar to get into the red they have to stop using them and then guess what? BAM, they're dead. Using up an energy hardpoint to mount them is a huge opportunity cost. That's what I learned from using them, never mount more than 1 on a mech. (I did see a nasty Heavy Gauss Fafnir build that used 3x flamers which was devastating but only because I wasn't expecting it)

This sort of thing simply would not be possible with Plasma Cannons due to the cooldown. Even if the enemy mech boats 4x of them. With my proposed change bringing the heat down to 6 and skills + quirks bring it down to roughly 5 that would be 20 heat generated by firing them to inflict 10 heat damage and now the PC boat has to wait 2.75s+, after skills + quirks, before they can fire again.

Edited by MechMaster059, 20 March 2024 - 06:19 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 20 March 2024 - 06:19 PM, said:

I have both used flamers on my BKL-D and been a victim of flamers. I have very rarely been killed by them. They're usually just an annoyance. The flamer heat bar limits how long they can be used so if you can stay alive long enough for their flamer bar to get into the red they have to stop using them and then guess what? BAM, they're dead. Using up an energy hardpoint to mount them is a huge opportunity cost. That's what I learned from using them, never mount more than 1 on a mech. (I did see a nasty Heavy Gauss Fafnir build that used 3x flamers which was devastating but only because I wasn't expecting it)

Again, they have been toned down since they were oppressive, either way it's still gimmicky. Do plasma cannons need them? No, they are mid range and happen to have a similar velocity to that of AP Gauss so clearly they are meant to be paired as well.

Sounds like there are already plans to tone down the heat the generate for the user since their DPH is pretty atrocious for all the trade-offs you make, we will see how much, hopefully it is to at least down to 6 if not more.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 20 March 2024 - 06:58 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

The Cauldron's decision was to make Plasma Cannons a lighter version of the CER-PPC, like inner sphere L-PPC's.

They don't have the resources to get it coded in for an ammo based energy ballistic flamer.

TT Plasma cannons are ballistic Nerf guns that are essentially fires massive foam superheated pellets that melt vehicles, infantry, but only inflict heat to heavy armor, not kinetic damage.

Which is silly, but its purpose was being ballistic long range Flamer, not a damage dealer, but more of a terror weapon, as heat was alot more vital and integrated into TT gameplay.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Cyborne Elemental, on 20 March 2024 - 06:58 PM, said:

TT Plasma cannons are ballistic Nerf guns that are essentially fires massive foam superheated pellets that melt vehicles, infantry, but only inflict heat to heavy armor, not kinetic damage.

Which is silly, but its purpose was being ballistic long range Flamer, not a damage dealer, but more of a terror weapon, as heat was alot more vital and integrated into TT gameplay.

Heat is vital in Mechwarrior too, it's just its different shutting down one of many units a player is using versus preventing the only unit a player is using from shooting things. Heat is a resource just like in TT, the implications are different though when a player can only control one unit at a time versus multiple. That's the real difference here.

[MechMaster059]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 20 March 2024 - 06:56 PM, said:

Again, they have been toned down since they were oppressive, either way it's still gimmicky. Do plasma cannons need them? No, ...

I assume you're asking if Plasma Cannons need a heat damage component and answering "No" to that question.

Then don't call them Plasma Cannons because their current design clearly flies completely in the face of what they are in TT.

Just call them Clan Light PPCs and change the color from green to light blue.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 20 March 2024 - 07:29 PM, said:

I assume you're asking if Plasma Cannons need a heat damage component and answering "No" to that question.

Then don't call them Plasma Cannons because their current design clearly flies completely in the face of what they are in TT.

Just call them Clan Light PPCs and change the color from green to light blue.

I mean if calling them Plasma Cannons is what it takes to get them in the game :shrug:, then I'm okay with how they did it. I mean it isn't like TT is really consistent with Plasma weapons anyway. They can all be heat weapons but how much of one varies wildly. I mean TT and consistency also don't really go well together anyway.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 20 March 2024 - 08:35 PM.

[Hawk819]

MECHWARRIOR GENERALS WARNING:

Do not under any circumstance place said Plasma Cannon Usage with Clan ER PPC. This'll cause your `Mech to shutdown. Even if Override is initiated. You have been warned!