10 replies to this topic

[TELEFORCE]

Is there a reason why the Thunderbolt missiles aren't single missiles with enough HP to get past some AMS? I'm not sure it was written in some many pages somewhere and I didn't see it.

Right now they seem to be like guided MRMs with more damage per missile, but fly a lot slower as a trade-off for guidance. IMO to make them more attractive and different to use, make them single missiles like canon BattleTech and treat them either like the Inner Sphere single-shot ACs, or give them splash damage like the snub-nose PPC or the Clan ER PPCs. In their current form I find them somewhat boring and hard to use with their low HP vs AMS. After all, the SRMs and ATMs do the higher damage-per-missile thing already and do it well.

I've also seen some opinion about making Thunderbolts like ATMs. I don't think this is the way to go as it displaces another canon Inner Sphere missile system that isn't implemented yet - the MML. I hope we see those soon!

Edited by TELEFORCE, 22 March 2024 - 05:18 AM.

[MrTBSC]

imho including them like that was the right choice ... think about it TBM 15 or god forbid TBM 20 guided near guaranteed dmg to one single location like side or centertorso is quite frightening ... assaultmechs and slower heavy mechs would have a difficult time ... even if you were to have the larger calibre missiles be slower if there ain´t ams around you would be in for pain ... TBM 20 being single projectile would make it the most damaging PPFLD weapon with the longest range, where weapons like the heavy gaussrifle and AC 20 only have effective damage over short range any other weapon with equal or more range has either less damage or trades dmg and/or range for any kind of splash ...

[LordNothing]

ive seen missiles land through light ams screens. lobbing them over a kitfox or a corsair 7a is just a waste of ammo. players using guided weapons need to look for ams and take steps to be able to land missiles. change targets or switch to auxiliary direct fire weapons. this is another reason i like to bring ppcs on my lerm boats, other than that they can break ecm, they can also break mechs, including troublesome mechs that shoot down all your missiles.

[Novakaine]

PPC's tend to make ECM/AMS mech move and not camp.
Like Lord Nothing says it breaks mechs also.
It ain't much, but it's something.

[martian]

MrTBSC, on 22 March 2024 - 08:04 AM, said:

imho including them like that was the right choice ... think about it TBM 15 or god forbid TBM 20 guided near guaranteed dmg to one single location like side or centertorso is quite frightening ... assaultmechs and slower heavy mechs would have a difficult time ... even if you were to have the larger calibre missiles be slower if there ain´t ams around you would be in for pain ... TBM 20 being single projectile would make it the most damaging PPFLD weapon with the longest range, where weapons like the heavy gaussrifle and AC 20 only have effective damage over short range any other weapon with equal or more range has either less damage or trades dmg and/or range for any kind of splash ...

Ever heard about Heavy PPC?

It actually delivers "frightening" 15-point hits "to one single location like side or centertorso" and it has comparable range. Unlike TB15 Heavy PPC also never runs out of ammo - actually, it needs no explosive ammo at all which explosion would kill your 'Mech.
Its shots are invulnerable to enemy AMS. It does not care about locks and enemy ECM.

The fun fact is that Heavy PPC needs 4 slots and weighs 10 tons.
TB15 needs 3 slots and weighs 11 tons, but since you need at least 1 ton of missile ammo (actually, you would need more ammo), you will end up with 4 slots and 12 tons.

[MrTBSC]

martian, on 22 March 2024 - 11:15 PM, said:

Ever heard about Heavy PPC?

It actually delivers "frightening" 15-point hits "to one single location like side or centertorso" and it has comparable range. Unlike TB15 Heavy PPC also never runs out of ammo - actually, it needs no explosive ammo at all which explosion would kill your 'Mech.
Its shots are invulnerable to enemy AMS. It does not care about locks and enemy ECM.

The fun fact is that Heavy PPC needs 4 slots and weighs 10 tons.
TB15 needs 3 slots and weighs 11 tons, but since you need at least 1 ton of missile ammo (actually, you would need more ammo), you will end up with 4 slots and 12 tons.

TBM = guided
ppc and about any other PPFLD ballistic = unguided, thus more likely to miss shots

also Heavy PPCs are quite hot, so that means you are very likely to take up double heatsinks which add 3 more slots if you don´t have a high rated engine to pack them in there, otherwise you lose out on DPS ... TBMs not so much as even the TBM 20 has only a third of the heat generation the HPPC has

so imo there is a good reason to take a TBM 15 over a HPPC both do 15 damage, are in about the same rangebracket with the TBM outranging the HPPC a bit ... the TBM 15 despite being heavier is still more compact even with adding say 2 tons of ammo
compared to the HPPC with 2 DHS outside the engine

the primary thing that speaks for the HPPC is that it is a ppfld weapon with good projectilevelocity where as the TBM has much less projectile velocity (like any missile launcher and in fact the TBM is right now the slowest projectileweapon in the game even compared to NARC and streak SRMs) and splashes but it still splashes less than any other launcher ... like seriously i went into traininggrounds with LRMs, artemis LRMs and MRMs even if they deal more dmg per ton the TBM is more consistent to where you want the damage to hit ...

[Weeny Machine]

MrTBSC, on 22 March 2024 - 08:04 AM, said:

imho including them like that was the right choice ... think about it TBM 15 or god forbid TBM 20 guided near guaranteed dmg to one single location like side or centertorso is quite frightening ... assaultmechs and slower heavy mechs would have a difficult time ... even if you were to have the larger calibre missiles be slower if there ain´t ams around you would be in for pain ... TBM 20 being single projectile would make it the most damaging PPFLD weapon with the longest range, where weapons like the heavy gaussrifle and AC 20 only have effective damage over short range any other weapon with equal or more range has either less damage or trades dmg and/or range for any kind of splash ...

You forget...
1. slow speed
2. lock on time
3. ECM

An AC20 is more reliable

[martian]

MrTBSC, on 23 March 2024 - 06:32 AM, said:

TBM = guided
ppc and about any other PPFLD ballistic = unguided, thus more likely to miss shots

Seriously?

I have seen many times how various guided missiles such as TBMs and LRMs lost their locks midair and missed their intended targets completely.

MrTBSC, on 23 March 2024 - 06:32 AM, said:

also Heavy PPCs are quite hot, so that means you are very likely to take up double heatsinks which add 3 more slots if you don´t have a high rated engine to pack them in there, otherwise you lose out on DPS ... TBMs not so much as even the TBM 20 has only a third of the heat generation the HPPC has

so imo there is a good reason to take a TBM 15 over a HPPC both do 15 damage, are in about the same rangebracket with the TBM outranging the HPPC a bit ... the TBM 15 despite being heavier is still more compact even with adding say 2 tons of ammo
compared to the HPPC with 2 DHS outside the engine

the primary thing that speaks for the HPPC is that it is a ppfld weapon with good projectilevelocity where as the TBM has much less projectile velocity (like any missile launcher and in fact the TBM is right now the slowest projectileweapon in the game even compared to NARC and streak SRMs) and splashes but it still splashes less than any other launcher ... like seriously i went into traininggrounds with LRMs, artemis LRMs and MRMs even if they deal more dmg per ton the TBM is more consistent to where you want the damage to hit ...

How many times have you used Thunderbolt Missiles in the live game since their introduction? I am not talking about Training Grounds, but about the real Quick Play game against the team of twelve human players?

[Sjorpha]

I feel like lock-on weapons in MWO have long been kept underpowered by design, making them competitive with other weapons doesn't seem to be a clearly stated balancing goal.

Until that changes I feel like it's really hard to have balance conversations about them. If we are talking about the "correct" level of underpoweredness for some arbitraty notion of "fun" or whatever, then that's not the kind of balancing I care about.

[Vonbach]

TELEFORCE, on 22 March 2024 - 05:18 AM, said:

Is there a reason why the Thunderbolt missiles aren't single missiles with enough HP to get past some AMS? I'm not sure it was written in some many pages somewhere and I didn't see it.

Because they hate any guided missile system and want to make them as useless as possible.

[Meep Meep]

I've had success with thunderbolts on mechs with good missile quirks but they are total meh on anything without a beefy velocity quirk at minimum so you can more easily penetrate ams. Range then cooldown would be the second most important. Heat isn't much of an issue. Also found out the min range isn't a damage stop but becomes a static 50% reduction in damage so lights trying to face tank you get a nice surprise. I like them so far but like with all indirect fire lockons they are completely map and team dependent. Roll polar highlands and farm like a boss. Get solaris and cry like a beeaatch.