51 replies to this topic

[Skjoelsvold]

OK maybe the title needs work but this is mainly about how to counter the situation we have now with four mans rolling new players and driving them out of the game. Not that four mans are bad mind you.

So hello GLHF Everyone, you might know me if you play the game, if not you've probably seen me in the game, and maybe even killed me or been eliminated by me. Either way, I'm Skjoelsvold and I like to train up new players. I have a friend as well who likes to bring new players into the game and train them. We both regularly recommend this game to our friends and they get driven off by the problem I'm going to discuss. Suffice to say we've been having some challenges. Well my friend more so than me but I'll explain that in a bit.

We have been trying to bring in new people and teach them the basics of the game. The problem we've had is the four mans of really good players. I am friends with a lot of these players so I just typically wait for them to deploy so it's less of a problem for me but I also have less friends who play MW5 who want to migrate to MWO and here's the rub. It's hard to train new players if you keep running into groups of god tier 4 mans. So my friend has been getting really frustrated. We know others do the same and have the same results.

Some suggestions I'd make but of course this is a democracy so anybody can make some, is have another tier of play for the four mans. They win 5 in a row and get to bump up to just playing other 4 mans, in 4 v 4 until 6 groups make it into the tier and then just a round robin rotating groups so everybody plays everybody else. Then prizes for the best teams and best players. I mean like MC and Titles and Banners and all kinds of perks just so there's an incentive for them and a reward for making room for the less top end players to get some practice in. And for me and my friend to train people in.

These rewards would be season by season as well so the top teams would get further accolades and incentives. Honestly I think if you're good you should get rewarded for it and you should also have a chance to show off and even play against like skilled players to really hone your skills as well.

Now anybody else have some thoughts? I mean, I do run with a few regulars so I just might see you in this as well, no shade on good players but it's hard to teach new players the ropes when they keep getting hung. So yeah that's my thoughts.

Just a suggestion don't get upset if you think it's stupid just say you don't like the idea but if you think there's something here and room for improvement then chime in. So that's what I think and it'd be fun to have a 4 man go toe to toe with the best of the best for bragging rights and prizes on the nights my blood is up and it'd also be nice to have all those guys beating up on each other instead of the new players. Just a thought.

Anyway, if you made it this far thanks for reading if not, it's ok and you're not reading this anyway so stick a banana in your ear. Or not it's up to you. Hope we can come up with something to help because we need new people so this game can keep going and expand a little bit. With people playing MW5 and a new version of the Online game to come out someday we really need to bring in more players because after all the players are the content. No players no game no game sad Skjoelsvold. OK thanks bye.

[pattonesque]

very few four-mans are actually any good at the game. most are just four dudes grouping up to have a few drinks and occasionally click robots. the ones who are legit problems will not be running into new players on anything other than a rare basis

anyway if you just give your new folks the basics (twist, don't YOLO, use cover, maneuver to fire instead of maneuvering to hide, don't build your mech like a dolt) they'll be ahead of 90% of the playerbase already.

[Therax]

My real quick my three cents:


Player population is too low to separate groups from solos.


The tier system of matchmaking, while far from perfect, should be keeping new players separate from "god tier 4 mans" (unless if those new players are grouped up with other high tier players).

Max Quick Play group size should be reduced to three players, down from the current four.
Three friends cannot play together in a smaller group size than three, but four friends could still play together in two groups of two.

[LordNothing]

the nicheiness of the game, the established player base and the quasi-functional tier system. even when nobody is doing anything malicious its a very hostile environment for new players. other than maybe keeping a 4-man cadet queue open.

[1Exitar1]

pattonesque, on 04 April 2024 - 06:43 PM, said:

very few four-mans are actually any good at the game. most are just four dudes grouping up to have a few drinks and occasionally click robots. the ones who are legit problems will not be running into new players on anything other than a rare basis

Not true. One of my very first matches in the game I was grouped with Sean and his group. He had commented on having a cadet in the game and to keep close to them.
Then, now that I am in Tier 1, I get grouped into low Tier games all the time! Just today, most of my matches were with people I had never seen before. Because we have so few players, Tier 1's are now getting matched with Tier 5's and 4's far more often. I know it will happen more often with single players than with 4 man groups, but that is because there are far more singles than 4 mans.

@OP I think it is great that you and your friend are helping to train up new players. I wish there were far more of that happening! I really get tired of my team being wiped out because they wont take the high ground or are ignorant of UAVs, even when called out!

[blastedmast3R]

I have traversed the tiers. My expereiences span the width and depth of the bell curve. I've been curb stomped by 4-man premades. I've suffered at the hands of the bitter veterans who aren't willing or able to contribute to the calls for help. I sank all the way to tier 5, and just recently made it up the tier 1. Once I reached tier 5, I made a decision that I was going to learn and adapt and try to rank up. I wasn't satisfied with being tier 5, but I desperately wanted to get out of the middle tiers as well. Gameplay is much more consistent at either ends of the tier spectrum. Tier 3 is the most brutal due to the fact that you're constantly dealing with players from above and below you. That makes it impossible to develop a consistent play style. After each rank up in tier, I had to learn and adapt my play style all over again. It was really less about actual skill than recognizing what other players around me were doing and finding what worked in those new groups. My KDR is only 0.85 (abysmal), and my W/L ratio is 1.17. Very mediocre.

Here's my 2.5¢ worth - this is directed at no one in particular, it's just a list of things that helped me to rank up and have a better experience overall.

• The most important thing is to stay together as a team.
  
• Communicate with the team and support what the team is doing.
  
• Have a good attitude, and try not to blame other team members when there are holes in your own strategies. Focus on yourself and improve what you can there first. If you blame others for your own failings, you will never improve.
  
• Players who play with blinders on, zoomed in the entire match, are often more of a liability than anything else.Try not to do that. Mountain snipers are rarely the deciding factor in a game, and are most often just fodder for the lights.
  
• Learn to brawl effectively. The match is most often won or lost in the brawl.
  
• When you spot a group of flankers, call it out. Especially early in the match. The team will often redirect to squash the flankers. This puts your team at a numerical advantage, and it's always easier to win when you're up by 2 or 3.
  
• If you're in a light or a medium, be willing to respond immediately to a call for help. Often, one additional mech in a fight is enough to either kill or scare off the light ankle biter.
  
• If you don't have armor to share, communicate. You can still deal damage, just find someone who can tank a bit for you.
  
• If you're in an assault or heavy, don't rotate! Build a firing line instead. Recognize that the flankers need to flank. Some builds only work attacking back armor, and they need to get behind the group. If you can only move 80-90 kph, stay with the assaults and heavies. You're not a flanker.
  
• When using VOIP, don't say "don't do that". Instead keep your comms either concise and informational, or give a concise instruction. I.e. "Build a firing line at I9," or, "Focus bravo." Nothing kills team play faster than griping at someone. Keep it short, sweet, to the point, and in the affirmative.

There's probably more, but these are the things that I try to do. It's really helped my overall experience, as well as my enjoyability. I used to be prone to rage quitting and taking months-long breaks from MWO. That's a rare thing for me now.

Sorry, that turned into a book. Cheers, Mechwarriors. See you out there.

[v4skunk]

I stopped playing in 2016 and just come back 4 months ago with my tier reset back at 5 from 1 (was 95% on jarls in 2016).
Just grinded back into T2 and mm is brutal. 75% of my matches results in my team being steam rolled. It feels like i'm dropping with new T5 players and vs T1.
Jarls list a week and a bit ago said i dropped from 89% to 80% and that's just from getting into T2.
I get it that i'm probably getting carried away some times with positioning and getting caught out hard in some games though.
But yeah i'd argue MM is broken in T2/T1. I think a group drop rank is needed to try and keep things equal. Or limit groups to two people.

[pattonesque]

v4skunk, on 05 April 2024 - 09:05 AM, said:

But yeah i'd argue MM is broken in T2/T1. I think a group drop rank is needed to try and keep things equal. Or limit groups to two people.

so the issue here is that T1 is actually like three separate tiers. It's like:


Low T1 (decent players, big variability in game-to-game performance, usually not people who will carry but also aren't a detriment to the team)
High T1 (good to great players, some on comp teams, performance floor is higher than low T1, occasionally will carry)
Tier 0 (exceptional players, many on comp teams, performance floor would be the equivalent of a quality game from Low T1, will often carry)

and the problem is that all those tiers (T2 and the three T1s outlined above would be like the difference between Diamond/Masters/Grandmasters/Top 500 in Overwatch, just as an example) are all in the same bucket. And they have to be, because T1 as a whole is only like 10% of the playerbase.

Edited by pattonesque, 05 April 2024 - 09:47 AM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

and the rest of us should care about how fair it is for that 10 percent to wait longer... why exactly?

what's in this for us, again?

Please, explain why I should care.

[Ignatius Audene]

After them U will be the next 10%...

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Ignatius Audene, on 05 April 2024 - 10:41 AM, said:

After them U will be the next 10%...

Not really no. I waver so much on performance, have yet to figure out how to consistently perform and have gradually stopped giving a **** about appeasing higher ranks looking to win the MM pug lottery. I play less and less and even major lootbag events just aren't interesting enough.

Number of players from T2 down is much higher. The 10 percent rely on other, lower tiers to fill their matches, not the other way around. Especially T0 and high T1, they could vanish and it would likely fail to affect MM at all.

I have very little to lose here. This is not a slippery slope.

Any other reasons?

[torsie]

I think this is probably obvious, but learning how to work with your team is super important, super useful and super strong.
Reason why people do not like premades, is not because they are good, but because they work together.

I sometimes play with my one friend and I am not super good, but when we have similar mechs with similar role, we move together at similar speed with similar weapons, at any moment enemy appears in front of us, they are getting shot by 2 big mechs who will not let them go and focus only them.

I think if more people learn to stay together with others, to focus on same target, help each other with ECM, target locks and drones, watch map and move to help others, you will always win lot more games and survive more often.

Problem is not premade, problem is 4 people moving together playing against 12 teams of 1 player.

[pattonesque]

Mechwarrior2342356, on 05 April 2024 - 10:34 AM, said:

and the rest of us should care about how fair it is for that 10 percent to wait longer... why exactly?

what's in this for us, again?

Please, explain why I should care.

this is a weirdly hostile response to what was, for me at least, a decidedly non-hostile post.

but I'll respond as if you were normal. I'm just explaining why matchmaking at the T2/T1 level in Mechwarrior Online in 2024 is more difficult than other games. If you make it so that 10% has to wait a significantly longer time, they'll straight-up quit. Meanwhile, I don't believe (and feel free to disagree here) the same thing will happen to players in T2/T3 who occasionally get matched up against higher-level T1 folks. The nature of how this game works means that stomps and steamrolls will happen even if everyone is completely evenly-matched, so I'm not sure it's even something that will be super noticeable.

A reasonable solution to this, IMO, would be to encourage lower-tiered players to simply try their best in matches where they might be going up against better players. A thing that's fascinating about MWO is that folks who've been playing for a long time and are in the middle tiers will audibly give up the moment they recognize a player on the other team they identify as slightly too good. If they tried ... not even their best, but just a normal amount, I guarantee they'd win more often and find the experience far more enjoyable. I'd put myself in the higher T1 bracket and when I notice someone who's more T0 on the other team it amps me up to play better. Playing my best against someone who knows their stuff makes me better at the game and is way more fun than going up against folks worse than I am.

So to the OP, I would add on that you should tell new players simply to try to their best to win and that'll immediately make them better players and better teammates than a significant percentage of the playerbase.

Edited by pattonesque, 05 April 2024 - 11:19 AM.

[BLXKNTRR]

Tell new players to find a good place to stand near team, and not over extend. support team, dont suicide to do it, but try to be opportunistic and brave at the same time.

Skill their mechs armor.

[Nine-Ball]

Tactics doesn't matter if they don't have the mentality for it.

Being brave and not scared, being willing to sacrifice armor for a better position; willingness to support a blind push or to lead a push when everyone else is being timid. Taking the risk to take up an exposed position to provide fire support to your team, or willing to be loose in formation so you cover more ground to scout in finding the enemy.

No risk no reward. Leadership through deed and action.

Beyond that you have to keep it basic and simple, because working on the basic and simple means everything else more complex that follows from that is easier to achieve.

[pattonesque]

Nine-Ball, on 05 April 2024 - 11:29 AM, said:

Tactics doesn't matter if they don't have the mentality for it.

Being brave and not scared, being willing to sacrifice armor for a better position; willingness to support a blind push or to lead a push when everyone else is being timid. Taking the risk to take up an exposed position to provide fire support to your team, or willing to be loose in formation so you cover more ground to scout in finding the enemy.

No risk no reward. Leadership through deed and action.

Beyond that you have to keep it basic and simple, because working on the basic and simple means everything else more complex that follows from that is easier to achieve.

yeah this is also good advice. a lot of players in this game, even those who've been playing for a decade, spend a lot of their time hiding and cowering. they maneuver to delay the inevitability of getting shot rather than maneuvering to get a better position to shoot. this is, imo, a big reason why newer or less skilled players like the HPG basement, because it allows them to kind of, ah, not play the game.

so yeah I'd tell them like, it's fine to maneuver, but it's usually better to stand and fight, especially if all of you are doing it at once

[East Indy]

pattonesque, on 05 April 2024 - 09:47 AM, said:

And they have to be, because T1 as a whole is only like 10% of the playerbase.

Your post is good but here it falls short, and I'm not sure why so many longtime players aren't seeing this.

High/Low T1 and T0 are completely mixed in with other tiers. There's no expectation for their own exclusive matches.

So why not identify them in the matchmaker, keep the "relief valves" loose to mitigate long queue times, and sprinkle them into match lobbies like they're being sprinkled every day -- only now, the game knows a T0 is a T0?

Edited by East Indy, 05 April 2024 - 11:56 AM.

[shockdiode]

pattonesque, on 05 April 2024 - 11:02 AM, said:

this is a weirdly hostile response to what was, for me at least, a decidedly non-hostile post.

but I'll respond as if you were normal.

Good on you. Some people are just {Richard Cameron}, end of story. I appreciate you being civil in spite of that.

[Meep Meep]

New players will take weeks or months to get to t3 and start to engage t1 groups. A large portion will never even get to t3. Grouping in lower tiers can be a negative because if your lance is a bunch of drunken laggards chuffing it up in chat and yoloing out to guffaws of laughter ending with a combined 328 damage for the lance then well.. There are ~lots~ of those types of lances. Even in t1 play.

[pattonesque]

Meep Meep, on 05 April 2024 - 01:42 PM, said:

New players will take weeks or months to get to t3 and start to engage t1 groups. A large portion will never even get to t3. Grouping in lower tiers can be a negative because if your lance is a bunch of drunken laggards chuffing it up in chat and yoloing out to guffaws of laughter ending with a combined 328 damage for the lance then well.. There are ~lots~ of those types of lances. Even in t1 play.

The worst thing you can hear (in terms of your chances of winning the match) upon loading in to the match is four chortling mechdads riffing on F-tier Borscht Belt material