15 replies to this topic

[VanBurenPhilips]

... stay with just magshots and abundant ammo, or strip some and mount an extra weapon? What would you choose?

[martian]

VanBurenPhilips, on 24 April 2024 - 02:27 AM, said:

... stay with just magshots and abundant ammo, or strip some and mount an extra weapon? What would you choose?

Well, if you end your games with a lot of unused ammunition, you can discard some superfluous ammunition in favor of other equipment.

[Meep Meep]

The flea19 still doesn't have enough ammo. With ammo nodes and three tons its still shy of 1000 potential damage and you have to shave too much armor to get another half ton. But I get it, baby steps with mag/ap..

[VanBurenPhilips]

I had 3.5 tons before patch and would run out in a good game. Now I've tried 3 tons + ER small, and 2.5 tons + med laser. Range parity and better alpha with the med.

(2.5 tons now = slightly more than 3.5 tons before patch, somewhere around +50rnds w/ ammo skill)

Both perform better than pre-patch mags only, but both can still run out. I'm definitely keeping a laser, but undecided which one.

[Xetelian]

I feel comfy if mechdb tells me I have at least >1200 damage potential in my main weapon's ammo if I don't have backups

<1200 feels like I don't have wiggle room for any missed shots or lower damage shots to a dead component

[VanBurenPhilips]

Well, 3 tons gets you 498 shots (with ammo skills), so just 4pts shy of 1000dmg. If you drop the laser I'm carrying, you can have 1162 potential damage, I guess that's close enough. I'd call that the limit for this mech, I don't think scrounging another half ton from armour or engine would be worth it.

I don't think you need that much on this little guy though. It's really easy to play right now, I'm getting 3~500dmg on autopilot, up to 6~700 when I play well. If I get the chance to unload unseen at max ROF, the ammo will run out, but if it's more peek/alpha/hide it'll just about last the match.

[Meep Meep]

VanBurenPhilips, on 24 April 2024 - 03:57 AM, said:

I had 3.5 tons before patch and would run out in a good game. Now I've tried 3 tons + ER small, and 2.5 tons + med laser. Range parity and better alpha with the med.

(2.5 tons now = slightly more than 3.5 tons before patch, somewhere around +50rnds w/ ammo skill)

Both perform better than pre-patch mags only, but both can still run out. I'm definitely keeping a laser, but undecided which one.

If you are wanting to mix in energy wouldn't this be the better variant?

fle-fa

Having masc is a huge bonus to survivability in close range knife fights.

The fle19s schtick is that it can fit 8 magshots so it makes sense to built it around that. It needs 1200 potential minimum after ammo nodes to fully utilize it in a typical quick play match where you will often have to take out of optimal shots and not at the expense of shaving down what little armor you have.

[VanBurenPhilips]

Meep Meep, on 30 April 2024 - 01:35 PM, said:

It needs 1200 potential minimum

It really doesn't. Where is this coming from? Has this become MWO dogma while I was away? It's simply not true.

Quote

If you are wanting to mix in energy wouldn't (FA) be the better variant?

It might be! I don't have it. Thread is about the 19
As for shaving (torso) armour, you'd be surprised how little difference it makes. Looks bad on paper, makes ~zero difference in practice. Not really interested in theorycrafting on this, because I've done it (on this flea, and on a PB for years). You don't know until you've tried it.

[Meep Meep]

VanBurenPhilips, on 04 May 2024 - 08:12 AM, said:

It really doesn't. Where is this coming from? Has this become MWO dogma while I was away? It's simply not true.



It might be! I don't have it. Thread is about the 19
As for shaving (torso) armour, you'd be surprised how little difference it makes. Looks bad on paper, makes ~zero difference in practice. Not really interested in theorycrafting on this, because I've done it (on this flea, and on a PB for years). You don't know until you've tried it.

A good light pilot needs every point of armor to brush off laser sweeps and to survive a pin point hit. Shaving leg armor is a thing because many larger mechs have insane leg armor or the player is hoping no one notices he skipped leg day.

As to the 1200 potential this is for a single short ranged weapon system that is ammo based. If you mix in some energy then you don't need as much. But when all you have are the magshots with its short range then yeah you need a high potential damage number so you can take the out of optimal shots. Missile mechs work much the same way in that you often have to bring a few thousand damage worth of missiles to get in a few hundred damage due to misses and lost locks etc.

[VanBurenPhilips]

Sorry to sound like a broken record but

Quote

A good light pilot needs every point of armor

no they don't. This just isn't true. I don't blame you for assuming it, I did too, but until you test your assumptions you don't know if they're right. This one isn't. I know because I've been doing it for years. Some things don't play out the way you expect them to, this is one of them.

That's why I said no more theorycrafting. Try this mech with 20 across all front torsos (same as maxed arms), play well, report back. There's really no point debating back and forth when you can just test it and find out.

Edited by VanBurenPhilips, 10 May 2024 - 08:33 AM.

[Meep Meep]

VanBurenPhilips, on 10 May 2024 - 08:16 AM, said:

Sorry to sound like a broken record but

no they don't. This just isn't true. I don't blame you for assuming it, I did too, but until you test your assumptions you don't know if they're right. This one isn't. I know because I've been doing it for years. Some things don't play out the way you expect them to, this is one of them.

That's why I said no more theorycrafting. Try this mech with 20 across all front torsos (same as maxed arms), play well, report back. There's really no point debating back and forth when you can just test it and find out.

Lmao you are accusing me of theory crafting on how to play lights? Ahahaha..

You have 18% light play over your history vs my close to 99% of light play since beta. Who has more experience in their well to dip from?

[VanBurenPhilips]

You are theorycrafting on this issue, because you haven't tested it. I have. I have more experience on this issue because I've tested it extensively. You haven't.

It's not an insult mate, that's just what the words mean. Not interested in ad hominem pettiness. I'm out.

[Meep Meep]

VanBurenPhilips, on 10 May 2024 - 11:13 PM, said:

You are theorycrafting on this issue, because you haven't tested it. I have. I have more experience on this issue because I've tested it extensively. You haven't.

It's not an insult mate, that's just what the words mean. Not interested in ad hominem pettiness. I'm out.

Ad hominem attacks mean someone arbitrarily insults you in a way completely unrelated to the topic. Saying that your brief 18% stints in lights isn't nearly as deep a well of experience as 99% light play since beta is just the facts.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Meep Meep, on 11 May 2024 - 01:53 AM, said:

Ad hominem attacks mean someone arbitrarily insults you in a way completely unrelated to the topic.

The original (or actual) definition of "argumentum ad hominem" has nothing to do with insults but instead dismissing an opponents argument based on an arbitrarly chosen trait of said person. In this case you're indeed on the verge of going "ad hominem" by the plain fact that you dismiss him based on the perceieved lack of gameplay experience with Light mechs while also trying the argue with an "appeal to authority" - in this case your own - which you base on your 99% Light play.

Side note: Unfortunately people have missused the term "ad hominem" so much by now that even insults are considered "ad hominem" instead of what they actually are: friggin insults.

Meep Meep, on 11 May 2024 - 01:53 AM, said:

Saying that your brief 18% stints in lights isn't nearly as deep a well of experience as 99% light play since beta is just the facts.

A fact that indeed becomes an argumentum ad hominem in a situation where you want to dismiss his arguments based on said fact.

=> You have just as much earned yourself this as you want to hand it out to him.

[Meep Meep]

Der Geisterbaer, on 11 May 2024 - 02:59 AM, said:

The original (or actual) definition of "argumentum ad hominem" has nothing to do with insults but instead dismissing an opponents argument based on an arbitrarly chosen trait of said person. In this case you're indeed on the verge of going "ad hominem" by the plain fact that you dismiss him based on the perceieved lack of gameplay experience with Light mechs while also trying the argue with an "appeal to authority" - in this case your own - which you base on your 99% Light play.

Side note: Unfortunately people have missused the term "ad hominem" so much by now that even insults are considered "ad hominem" instead of what they actually are: friggin insults.



A fact that indeed becomes an argumentum ad hominem in a situation where you want to dismiss his arguments based on said fact.

=> You have just as much earned yourself this as you want to hand it out to him.

He made the contention that shaving armor off of lights is no big deal and won't matter in any circumstance and that running 20 on everything is just dandy. No. It's not. I can't recall the times having max armor along with max armor and structure nodes has saved my bacon when getting hit with ppfld or the various types of vomit. I might be left with red structure but I'm alive and can still shoot. This is my own years of experience at play. He also made the contention that I somehow lacked experience in lights when again a quick perusal of jarls shows exactly the opposite especially when you toss in my alts. Now if he wants to roll around in shaved lights more power to him but thats his personal choice and not one I would recommend.

[RockmachinE]

Definitely ammo!