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He Is Dead Jim (Fp)


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#21 LordNothing

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Posted 10 May 2024 - 07:09 PM

View PostQuicksilver Aberration, on 10 May 2024 - 05:45 PM, said:

Faction play being solo queue only would've killed the queue faster than the bad modes themselves did...


i think current qp group rules would have been the appropriate compromise. id have even upped the limit to 6 players per group. no limit on number of groups however, but i would have removed the prioritization of groups over solos. make time-in-queue the deciding factor instead. nothing is more demoralizing than spending two hours in queue to get passed up several times.

Edited by LordNothing, 10 May 2024 - 07:23 PM.


#22 Davegt27

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Posted 10 May 2024 - 08:48 PM

when I see Boreal vault I want to kill myself

that is how many times I have seen that map (starting with day 1 first drop of CW)

#23 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 10 May 2024 - 10:12 PM

View PostLordNothing, on 10 May 2024 - 07:09 PM, said:


i think current qp group rules would have been the appropriate compromise. id have even upped the limit to 6 players per group. no limit on number of groups however, but i would have removed the prioritization of groups over solos. make time-in-queue the deciding factor instead. nothing is more demoralizing than spending two hours in queue to get passed up several times.

I said something similar because I was reminded of alliance battles from Guild Wars when they initially announced the CW plans/design. Alliance battles were 12v12 but was limited to 4-man groups. Ironically CW/FW/FP ended up similar to alliance battles in being a ghost town of sorts.

That said, the idea that it would be the main way to play was always an unreasonable goal.

#24 Gasboy

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Posted 11 May 2024 - 05:09 AM

View PostfeeWAIVER, on 10 May 2024 - 07:04 PM, said:


yeah okay, doesn't matter. It's dead.


No, just on life support.

#25 Davegt27

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Posted 11 May 2024 - 07:55 AM

View PostGasboy, on 10 May 2024 - 06:38 PM, said:


Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

Factions are made up of units, not individuals. FP was meant for organized play, not as a giant, messy QP queue.


the problem is it did not work

so we need to come up something new

or in other words how do add 5,000 players ??

#26 Curccu

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Posted 11 May 2024 - 09:37 AM

View PostfeeWAIVER, on 10 May 2024 - 04:48 PM, said:

They never should have allowed teams in FP.
It's Faction Play, Community Warfare, not Unit Play.

It was teams like Evil and Zmom that killed Fp.

Back when they had a critical mass of players, they should have made FP solo drop only, while still allowing full teams in Quickplay for Team vs Team.

This would have killed FP faster than it died. It is the team experience in MWO.
Matchmaker would have helped though

View PostDavegt27, on 11 May 2024 - 07:55 AM, said:

the problem is it did not work
so we need to come up something new
or in other words how do add 5,000 players ??


Well it kinda did... MWO numbers overall have dwindled to almost nothing and russ/paul with bad decisions in FP drove away most playerbase.

#27 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 11 May 2024 - 09:50 AM

View PostDavegt27, on 11 May 2024 - 07:55 AM, said:

the problem is it did not work

so we need to come up something new

or in other words how do add 5,000 players ??


I would say that the reason it didn't work was due to PGI untimeliness of handling things, from not adding CW/FP sooner, taking way too long to make actual changes to the starting "placeholder", MC generation when holding a planet that lead to a tax, an increasing bracket based on the number of players in the unit. Then said units started dropping occasional players (friends/family/associates) to reduce their "tax" load when adding new players, followed by the MC ownership revenue being removed but units still had those tax brackets, then LongTom fiasco which chased off the regular units while being kept in the game too long. Even with events, etc, the need to actually change Houses/Factions to drop in FP game, with the current setup for different level of Faction side was the route to go.

With the some of the previous discussion prior to the merge of QP queues into the Soup Queue, and with a non-existent MM Posted Image teams could have been limited to 8-man, with Solo/2-man filling the slots. The other part would have been the high-end units reining themselves in. High level units had players whose attendance dropped because they stopped enjoying the stomps that occurred. With a 12-man, one way to rein things in would have been to hit the Reds with smaller, which for many would have fit when they were dropping on the Clan side. Going forward with 9-man instead of all 12-man, and make it 5 waves instead of 4 waves, i.e. to challenge themselves. They could even announce it, but if a few of the Reds travelled and fired on that 3-man waiting for the 2nd wave to drop, all bets were off.

But no, many high caliber unit leaders played like as if they wanted to punish any pugs/low end units that faced them, to end the match as quickly as possible. On both sides unit memberships started to drop, units loss critical mass, the community as a whole suffered.

Could FP make a comeback, or have more activity than it currently does? Unknown but PGI would need to make some actual game changes, including potentially adding a visible Unit queue waiting for another unit to drop against. Though with their mostly off-hand approach except for Events, it would take players/unit leaders to work together, aiming primarily for Weekend events, like Kesmai had with the House Leaders during the MBPT Solaris and the Succession Wars, first on AOL then Gamestorm. Essentially, give the players something to look forward to while Units manage their drops, such as not dropping as a full 12-man.

/smack.. wait.. was I dreaming? !!!??? /ugghh...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 11 May 2024 - 09:52 AM.


#28 LordNothing

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Posted 11 May 2024 - 03:19 PM

and here we are where the best course of action is to do nothing.

#29 VeeOt Dragon

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Posted 11 May 2024 - 05:54 PM

FP was going down hill fast even when i first started. i mostly think that it was the big Units that killed it. tried dropping solo but then i had a huge wait only to get stomped by some 12 man full unit. tried to do join a unit but of the 5 units i joined only one wasn't full of a bunch of ******** that think only 4 mechs with the same 4 builds are ever worth playing. only the one unit was half friendly and gave a few good pointers but in the end that unit was small and soon fell apart.

it wasn't uncommon to find all the top Units on the same faction (more often than not Clans). it seemed as soon as one of these "elite" units faced another "elite" unit slightly better they would change faction so as not to go against them again.

#30 martian

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Posted 12 May 2024 - 09:16 PM

View PostVeeOt Dragon, on 11 May 2024 - 05:54 PM, said:

FP was going down hill fast even when i first started. i mostly think that it was the big Units that killed it. tried dropping solo but then i had a huge wait only to get stomped by some 12 man full unit. tried to do join a unit but of the 5 units i joined only one wasn't full of a bunch of ******** that think only 4 mechs with the same 4 builds are ever worth playing. only the one unit was half friendly and gave a few good pointers but in the end that unit was small and soon fell apart.

it wasn't uncommon to find all the top Units on the same faction (more often than not Clans). it seemed as soon as one of these "elite" units faced another "elite" unit slightly better they would change faction so as not to go against them again.
Pretty much similar to my experience.

#31 LordNothing

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Posted 13 May 2024 - 06:11 AM

there was definitely gerrymandering of the queue. but i think the real disruption was the megaunits. ms for example was not a spectacular unit skill wise, but they could flood the queue and almost every game would be against ms. which is perfect for farming pugs. you just have to be slightly better than a smattering of random average players. it was possible to defeat them of course unlike some of the more exclusive elite units that just won through pure skill. they made the excuse of wanting to be a merc unit before merc was implemented, but that was more an excuse to switch to the winning side at the drop of a hat. thing is they didn't really break any rules. they just figured out a subtle system to game the queue (and frankly im not even sure they were aware of it). you can blame them for the recruitment tax we got later on that turned out to kill off units.

early fp had good momentum. everyone was in units. not every unit was good though and you still got long losing streaks. its known that if players cannot win at least a third of the time they will stop playing the game. the inability to come up with a match maker quickly also kind of doomed the mode. if they spent as much effort on mm than they did on that stupid counter attack mode they might have done better. it also took too long for the bucket reduction to come into play. you just didnt have enough players to fill 10 factions. lots of situations where you had plenty of people who wanted to play the game but divided up so that was impossible.

#32 RockmachinE

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Posted 13 May 2024 - 07:07 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 13 May 2024 - 06:11 AM, said:

thing is they didn't really break any rules. they just figured out a subtle system to game the queue (and frankly im not even sure they were aware of it).


How did they game the queue?

#33 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 13 May 2024 - 09:07 AM

FP sadly never lived up to what it was intended to be, and hot take, I think part of that is tied to the abandonment of the 3 pillars of design they had put into place initially, primarily sensor gameplay being heavily overlooked, and not handled even close to how it really should have been.

It's a shame, that FP never ended up what it should have been... it could have been an interesting hardcore mode of the game with a deeper economy and all, but it just never shook out the way it should have... the hope was for recapturing the magic of the era of stuff like Multiplayer BattleTech... instead we got... whatever FP was trying to be here.

#34 LordNothing

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Posted 13 May 2024 - 04:53 PM

View PostRockmachinE, on 13 May 2024 - 07:07 AM, said:


How did they game the queue?


by flooding it. multiple 12 mans going simultaneously. pugs usually go for the less populated side to get games faster. so they essentially lined up to get farmed. you could pug the more populous side but your wait times would be abysmal. it was never the skill gap that killed the mode for me, it was always the wait times.

also at a time where you had a ton of buckets flooding one conflict zone deprived other zones of players necessary for drops, very disruptive to the intended design of the mode circa phase one. it killed the map game.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 May 2024 - 05:05 PM.


#35 Davegt27

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Posted 14 May 2024 - 08:46 AM

Quote

How did they game the queue?


the CW/FW/FP queue evolved over time based on players knowledge of how to game worked</div>
the ability to take advantage of the system had to be learned.</div>

at first people and teams where loyal to either the IS or Clan side</div>

I had to buy a Raven to have enough mechs to drop IS (not that it mattered to me I just went with the Mechs I had)

there was a ton of units
FP

I searched for awhile and found this (first day of CW)
you will see a lot of tactical mistakes



Edited by Davegt27, 14 May 2024 - 08:49 AM.


#36 KursedVixen

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Posted 14 May 2024 - 08:52 AM

Cauldron killed FP it's dead has been dead... it's a dead mode that needs to be removed Honestly

#37 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 14 May 2024 - 09:30 AM

View PostKursedVixen, on 14 May 2024 - 08:52 AM, said:

Cauldron killed FP it's dead has been dead... it's a dead mode that needs to be removed Honestly

Not sure why you are pinning it on the Cauldron, pretty sure FP/FW/CW was dead well before they even got the keys. Kinda hard to kill something PGI killed themselves with just bad design. Then again, CW/FW/FP was such a lofty goal to begin with that it was doomed to failed since the beginning. I think they failed to learn from the most successful games of both old and modern times especially as a not AAA studio and let the community fill in the gaps for you. Hell even content can be done (albeit for a good bit of cash, like CSGO/CS2 skins/maps are "bought" from the community). That includes third party leagues/ladders/etc whihc can include planetary leagues as existed all the way back in the MW3/4 days.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 14 May 2024 - 09:37 AM.


#38 martian

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Posted 14 May 2024 - 09:47 AM

View PostKursedVixen, on 14 May 2024 - 08:52 AM, said:

Cauldron killed FP
The Faction Play died long before the Cauldron has begun their MWO balancing work.

#39 LordNothing

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Posted 14 May 2024 - 06:01 PM

View PostQuicksilver Aberration, on 14 May 2024 - 09:30 AM, said:

Not sure why you are pinning it on the Cauldron, pretty sure FP/FW/CW was dead well before they even got the keys. Kinda hard to kill something PGI killed themselves with just bad design. Then again, CW/FW/FP was such a lofty goal to begin with that it was doomed to failed since the beginning. I think they failed to learn from the most successful games of both old and modern times especially as a not AAA studio and let the community fill in the gaps for you. Hell even content can be done (albeit for a good bit of cash, like CSGO/CS2 skins/maps are "bought" from the community). That includes third party leagues/ladders/etc whihc can include planetary leagues as existed all the way back in the MW3/4 days.


totally would like to see community mapping efforts. then you can start porting mwll maps. though its probibly a licensing issue where you cant distribute their version of the cryengine editor. nor can you encourage community development of 3rd party mapping tools because the specs to the format are proprietary. not sure if you could do a clean room reverse-engineering there. but you would need to find coders willing to do this that have nothing to do with the mechwarrior/battletech community, microsoft, crytek, etc. specs must be generated by a 3rd party to be legal, thats why reactos is still not to beta yet.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 May 2024 - 06:08 PM.






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