39 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

The dire wolves lore speed is 54 kph yet in MWO it's 48.8 why can't we just give all the DWF models a 5% speed tweak quirk to get it up to at least 51?

[MechMaster059]

I support a +5% speed tweak to the DWF. I've been playing my new DWF-PRIME a lot recently and its slow speed is a major weakness, even with Speed Tweak 2 on it. (50.1 kph) I realize it's a 100 ton mech but my MAD-4HP, which is also 100 tons, moves at 59.3 kph with Speed Tweak 3.

I have lost rating in winning matches on my DWF-PRIME simply because I couldn't get into combat quickly enough on a shifting battlefield to use my weapons. It could badly use an additional +2.4 kph which wouldn't be imbalancing at all.


EDIT:
Another possibility is increasing the engine size from 300 --> 325 with +1 DHS. This is a net increase of 4.5 tons for the engine + DHS but would result in a base speed of ~52.6 kph which would be adequate. This mech is clearly under-engined and players can't do anything about it because it's an omni mech. If upping the engines size is too risky due to screwing up existing player builds then give the mech a +5% top speed quirk.

Edited by MechMaster059, 27 May 2024 - 01:18 PM.

[martian]

MechMaster059, on 27 May 2024 - 11:31 AM, said:

I support a +5% speed tweak to the DWF.

There is no reason why give Dire Wolf some preferential treatment before any other 100-tonner with 300-rated engine.

MechMaster059, on 27 May 2024 - 11:31 AM, said:

I have lost rating in winning matches on my DWF-PRIME simply because I couldn't get into combat quickly enough on a shifting battlefield to use my weapons. It could badly use an additional +2.4 kph which wouldn't be imbalancing at all.

You knew the Dire Wolf's exact speed 48.6 km/h when you were buying it. You also knew that OmniMechs have locked engines. Now it is too late to complain.

MechMaster059, on 27 May 2024 - 11:31 AM, said:

I've been playing my new DWF-PRIME a lot recently and its slow speed is a major weakness, even with Speed Tweak 2 on it. (50.1 kph) I realize it's a 100 ton mech but my MAD-4HP, which is also 100 tons, moves at 59.3 kph with Speed Tweak 3.

Dire Wolf with Speed Tweak 2 moves 50.1 km/h.

MAD-4HP with 300-rated engine (the same that Dire Wolf uses) and Speed Tweak 2 also moves 50.1 km/h.

etc.

Both Dire Wolf and MAD-4HP with 300-rated engine move exactly the same speed and Spead Tweak has exactly the same effect on them.

Your MAD-4HP moves 59.3 km/h because you put 350-rated engine in it and unlocked Spead Tweak 3.

It is not surprising that a 'Mech with 350-rated engine is faster than a 'Mech with 300-rated engine.

You "forgot" to mention the most important fact, when comparing your customized up-engined MAD-4HP with the Dire Wolf with its locked engine.

MechMaster059, on 27 May 2024 - 11:31 AM, said:

EDIT:
Another possibility is increasing the engine size from 300 --> 325 with +1 DHS. This is a net increase of 4.5 tons for the engine + DHS but would result in a base speed of ~52.6 kph which would be adequate. This mech is clearly under-engined and players can't do anything about it because it's an omni mech. If upping the engines size is too risky due to screwing up existing player builds then give the mech a +5% top speed quirk.

The 'Mech moves as fast (or slow) as any other Clan or IS 100-tonner with 300-rated engine. There is no reason why Dire Wolf should deserve some special speed quirk.

Edited by martian, 27 May 2024 - 10:40 PM.

[MechMaster059]

martian, on 27 May 2024 - 09:37 PM, said:

...
Dire Wolf with Speed Tweak 2 moves 50.1 km/h.

MAD-4HP with 300-rated engine (the same that Dire Wolf uses) and Speed Tweak 2 also moves 50.1 km/h.
...

I should have been clearer on the point I was making. The point was that just because a mech weighs 100 tons doesn't mean it should be stuck around 50 kph. I was using my MAD-4HP as an example of a 100 ton mech that through engine selection and skills I can get well past 50 kph.

martian, on 27 May 2024 - 09:37 PM, said:

...

The 'Mech is as "under-engined" as any other Clan or IS 100-tonner with 300-rated engine. There is no reason why Dire Wolf should deserve some special speed quirk.

I think the best solution is to up the engine to 325. DWF pilots always stack the mech with heat sinks anyway so putting 1 more heat sink in the engine will actually save space without increasing weight (just remove 1 heat sink from the body) so I was wrong to say the net effect of upping the engine would be +4.5 more tons. It would really be just +3.5 more tons. The problem with this solution is that it would break the current builds of a large number of players. Fixing their builds wouldn't be hard but I can see how PGI would be hesitant to potentially irritate a large number of its players.

Absent upping the built in engine size, I can give you a great reason why the DWF should be given a +5% speed quirk: Because players have no choice of engine size on it.

This doesn't matter on something like a Shadow Cat which is already very fast but the DWF's slow speed causes serious problems for it. I've recently broken back into tier 2 and the slow speed of the mech was a source of major problems against the much more skilled player base in tier 2+: Constantly being flanked, left behind, having to leave good firing positions if my team moved too much, being unable to capitalize on vulnerable opponents because I'm so friggin slow, etc. As of today I've decided to stop playing the mech after falling back into tier 3 for 1 match because of it.

I'd gladly dump some armor and maybe 1 heat sink to up the engine to 310. I might even dump 2xERML to up the engine further, but I DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. Giving the mech +2.4 kph isn't asking for much.

Edited by MechMaster059, 27 May 2024 - 10:51 PM.

[martian]

MechMaster059, on 27 May 2024 - 10:51 PM, said:

I should have been clearer on the point I was making. The point was that just because a mech weighs 100 tons doesn't mean it should be stuck around 50 kph. I was using my MAD-4HP as an example of a 100 ton mech that through engine selection and skills I can get well past 50 kph.

MechWarrior Online has some 30+ different Assault 'Mechs.

If you decided to buy exactly that one Mech that moves 48.6 km/h and comes with locked engine, it was your personal choice - especially since you knew this fact beforehand.

There are many other 100-tonners "without" locked engine: Behemoth, Fafnir, Kodiak, Annihilator (both IS and Clan variety), King Crab, etc.

MechMaster059, on 27 May 2024 - 10:51 PM, said:

Absent upping the built in engine size, I can give you a great reason why the DWF should be given a +5% speed quirk: Because players have no choice of engine size on it.

As I wrote above, players - you included - have always the choice: If you do not want something, do not buy it. There are many other assault-class 'Mechs in MechWarrior Online. If you do not want to own an OmniMech with locked engine, do not buy it. Buy some other assault BattleMech with adjustable engine instead.

MechMaster059, on 27 May 2024 - 10:51 PM, said:

This doesn't matter on something like a Shadow Cat which is already very fast but the DWF's slow speed causes serious problems for it. I've recently broken back into tier 2 and the slow speed of the mech was a source of major problems against the much more skilled player base in tier 2+: Constantly being flanked, left behind, having to leave good firing positions if my team moved too much, being unable to capitalize on vulnerable opponents because I'm so friggin slow, etc. As of today I've decided to stop playing the mech after falling back into tier 3 for 1 match because of it.

You knew the Dire Wolf's speed before you bought it. It is like buying Black Hawk and then complaining that it has locked jump jets.

MechMaster059, on 27 May 2024 - 10:51 PM, said:

I'd gladly dump some armor and maybe 1 heat sink to up the engine to 310. I might even dump 2xERML to up the engine further, but I DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. Giving the mech +2.4 kph isn't asking for much.

If you wanted a faster assault 'Mech with adjustable engine size, you should have bought it instead of a 'Mech with locked engine.

MechMaster059, on 27 May 2024 - 10:51 PM, said:

I think the best solution is to up the engine to 325. DWF pilots always stack the mech with heat sinks anyway so putting 1 more heat sink in the engine will actually save space without increasing weight (just remove 1 heat sink from the body) so I was wrong to say the net effect of upping the engine would be +4.5 more tons. It would really be just +3.5 more tons. The problem with this solution is that it would break the current builds of a large number of players. Fixing their builds wouldn't be hard but I can see how PGI would be hesitant to potentially irritate a large number of its players.

No, you are wrong.

There are many popular Dire Wolf builds that do not "stack the mech with heat sinks", but they need tonnage.

There is no reason why to break their builds just because you willingly bought a slow 'Mech and now you are complaining that it is slow.

[MechMaster059]

martian, on 27 May 2024 - 11:31 PM, said:

MechWarrior Online has some 30+ different Assault 'Mechs.

blah blah blah making the same statement over and over completely missing the point...
...

The entire point of this thread is to fix a problem with the mech so players don't feel the need to avoid it and choose a different mech...

martian, on 27 May 2024 - 11:31 PM, said:

There are many popular Dire Wolf builds that do not "stack the mech with heat sinks"...

Not even 1 additional heat sink that can be moved from the body into a 325 engine? Can you please give me an example of one of these builds that doesn't add even 1 additional heat sink to the body and leaves the mech at 15 built-in heat sinks?

I suppose an easy fix for this then would be to move the DHS in the left leg into the 325 engine. Yes, that would be even better!

Edited by MechMaster059, 28 May 2024 - 12:25 AM.

[martian]

MechMaster059, on 28 May 2024 - 12:20 AM, said:

The entire point of this thread is to fix a problem with the mech so players don't feel the need to avoid it and choose a different mech...

Since players are using the 'Mech in the game, you can hardly say that they are avoiding it.

Players pick 'Mechs as they see fit: Who prefers firepower with the speed as a secondary concern, picks Dire Wolf. Who prefers speed, picks some other assault 'Mech and puts some large engine in it.

It is very simple, actually.

MechMaster059, on 28 May 2024 - 12:20 AM, said:

Not even 1 additional heat sink that can be moved from the body into a 325 engine? Can you please give me an example of one of these builds that doesn't add even 1 additional heat sink to the body and leaves the mech at 15 built-in heat sinks?

Stop moving goalposts.

You said that "DWF pilots always stack the mech with heat sinks anyway". Your key words were "always" and "stack the mech with heat sinks".

Now you are moving the goalposts towards "example of one of these builds" and "1 additional heat sink" and this is clearly not the same as "stack the mech with heat sinks".

But if you wish, I can tell you: "Ultraviolet" ballistic boat and many similar builds that do not need extra heat sinks, but need all tonnage they can get for guns and ammo.

[MechMaster059]

martian, on 28 May 2024 - 12:49 AM, said:

...
Players pick 'Mechs as they see fit: Who prefers firepower with the speed as a secondary concern, picks Dire Wolf. Who prefers speed, picks some other assault 'Mech and puts some large engine in it.
...

Giving the mech +2.4 kph would still make it slower that most other assault mechs, but at least brining it up to 51 kph would provide a good foundation to boost it further with skills and be a barely adequate speed w/o skills. You seem to be hyperventilating over a rather small potential buff.

martian, on 28 May 2024 - 12:49 AM, said:

Stop moving goalposts.

You said that "DWF pilots always stack the mech with heat sinks anyway". Your key words were "always" and "stack the mech with heat sinks".

Now you are moving the goalposts towards "example of one of these builds" and "1 additional heat sink" and this is clearly not the same as "stack the mech with heat sinks".

But if you wish, I can tell you: "Ultraviolet" ballistic boat and many similar builds that do not need extra heat sinks, but need all tonnage they can get for guns and ammo.

I'm not moving the goal posts. The question is how much additional weight would bumping the engine up to 325 add to the mech? The engine itself would be +3.5 tons, and the 3rd heat sink it has capacity for is another +1 ton BUT, if players always add +1 heat sink into the body anyway then that +1 heat sink built into the 325 could be compensated for by simply removing 1 DHS from the body.

You hysterically claimed there are builds without any additional player-added DHS and therefor this would mean upping the engine to 325 would add +4.5 tons for those players because now they have a 3rd DHS in the engine they don't want/need.

It's a moot point now because there's an easy solution to this potential problem, simply move the built-in DHS in the left leg into the 325 engine and now upping the engine is guaranteed to be no more than +3.5 tons for any build and would even free up leg slots to hold ammo.

[martian]

MechMaster059, on 28 May 2024 - 01:27 AM, said:

Giving the mech +2.4 kph would still make it slower that most other assault mechs, but at least brining it up to 51 kph would provide a good foundation to boost it further with skills and be a barely adequate speed w/o skills. You seem to be hyperventilating over a rather small potential buff.

The basic fact still stands: If you do not want a slow 'Mech, do not buy it.

If you do not want an OmniMech with locked engine of a firmly set size, do not buy it.

MechMaster059, on 28 May 2024 - 01:27 AM, said:

I'm not moving the goal posts. The question is how much additional weight would bumping the engine up to 325 add to the mech? The engine itself would be +3.5 tons, and the 3rd heat sink it has capacity for is another +1 ton BUT, if players always add +1 heat sink into the body anyway then that +1 heat sink built into the 325 could be compensated for by simply removing 1 DHS from the body.

You hysterically claimed there are builds without any additional player-added DHS and therefor this would mean upping the engine to 325 would add +4.5 tons for those players because now they have a 3rd DHS in the engine they don't want/need.

It's a moot point now because there's an easy solution to this potential problem, simply move the built-in DHS in the left leg into the 325 engine and now upping the engine is guaranteed to be no more than +3.5 tons for any build and would even free up leg slots to hold ammo.

Heavier engine means less tons for weapons and ammo. It really does not matter if you gain empty slots, if you can not add weapons and ammo because you do not have tonnage for them in the first place.

MechMaster059, on 27 May 2024 - 10:51 PM, said:

Constantly being flanked, left behind, having to leave good firing positions if my team moved too much, being unable to capitalize on vulnerable opponents because I'm so friggin slow, etc. As of today I've decided to stop playing the mech after falling back into tier 3 for 1 match because of it.

Perhaps you should work on your gameplay, loadouts, tactics and situational awareness rather than blame the 'Mech that you have personally chosen and bought, while knowing its speed beforehand.

[KursedVixen]

on a similar note since they did remove the fixed flamer on the adder i don't think any individual components you can buy double heat sinks jump jets etc should be fixed at all on any omni. So structure slots and stuff like that should be the only 'fixed' component other than the engine structure and armor on an omnimech.

Edited by KursedVixen, 28 May 2024 - 05:32 AM.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 28 May 2024 - 05:17 AM, said:

on a similar note since they did remove the fixed flamer on the adder i don't think any individual components you can buy double heat sinks jump jets etc should be fixed at all on any omni. So structure slots and stuff like that should be the only 'fixed' component other than the engine structure and armor on an omnimech.

The IS has just one (1) OmniMech in MWO.

The Clan players have twenty-seven (27) OmniMechs in MWO.

What you are suggesting would be a huge and absolutely lopsided boost of the Clan side.

[MechMaster059]

martian, on 28 May 2024 - 01:48 AM, said:

...
Perhaps you should work on your gameplay, loadouts, tactics and situational awareness rather than blame the 'Mech that you have personally chosen and bought, while knowing its speed beforehand.

I'm open to the possibility of room for improvement in my play with the mech, I've seen multiple Tier 1 players using it. But after losing around 7 matches in a row and dropping back into Tier 3, I asked myself "Why even put up with this handicap?" so I switched back to my MAD-IIC-D "EZ Mode" mech with a 2HAG30 2ERLL build that I ripped off from BrioS and within 1 match was back into Tier 2 and have now won enough matches to have a nice little buffer.

KursedVixen, on 28 May 2024 - 05:17 AM, said:

...
So structure slots and stuff like that should be the only 'fixed' component other than the engine structure and armor on an omnimech.

I've been thinking about this very thing for a while now. I've played the game long enough and own enough mechs to have noticed that loading up Omni-mechs with all sort of fixed components seriously screws up some of them. Examples:

EXE-C: Has 2xClass 1 Jump Jets in each leg for a total of 8 tons in jump jets, a huge waste of tonnage and blocks putting ammo in the legs. The head and CT slots are blocked off. I own this mech and if its LT gets blown off later in a match I could be out of ammo because there is nowhere else to store it. (Ammo gets drawn from the RT first)

MLX-D: Mech is packed with 6xJump Jets eating up weight and space. I have two UAC builds for it: UAC5 2xMicro Laser / UAC2 2xERML. The UAC5 build has 4+ points of armor stripped off every component to save weight. The mech has a Heat Management rating of of 1.68 with UAC5 Micro Lasers and 1.45 with UAC2 ERML which is overkill but all mechs are required to have 10x heat sinks and the 3 DHS in the MLX-D's body are fixed so I can't remove them. These builds wouldn't even be possible without the massive +ammo quirks on the mech. This mech is bad and always will be bad because it can't pack enough firepower to be a threat due to all the fixed components/engine on it.

I don't own a Viper Scaleshot but I know it has massive +200% SRM ammo quirks. (LOL) When a mech needs huge ammo quirks to feed its weapons that indicates there's something constraining design choices for the mech. These sorts of ammo quirks are very common on Omni mechs because their builds are so rigid. 8x Jump Jets and a massive XL 320 engine on the Scaleshot alone. Would allowing the Scaleshot to remove 2 Jump jets and lower its engine size make it overpowered? Not if you reduce the absurd +ammo quirks it wouldn't. The fact that it has those +ammo quirks prove the mech is operating well outside normal build constraints and is therefore overpowered.

Possible solutions for Omni-mechs:
- Make 1 heat sink optional.
- Make 2 Jump Jets optional, prioritizing leg jump jets, 1 in each leg if present.
- Omni-Engines. Add an "Engine" category in the Omnipods section of the MechLab giving a narrow choice of 3-5 engine sizes. (Still very limited but not fixed, any heat sink slots are automatically filled with heat sinks)

martian, on 28 May 2024 - 07:44 AM, said:

...
What you are suggesting would be a huge and absolutely lopsided boost of the Clan side.

Not if the quirks that are given to them to compensate for their rigid build limitations are rescaled accordingly.

Edited by MechMaster059, 28 May 2024 - 03:46 PM.

[KursedVixen]

MechMaster059, on 28 May 2024 - 03:45 PM, said:

I'm open to the possibility of room for improvement in my play with the mech, I've seen multiple Tier 1 players using it. But after losing around 7 matches in a row and dropping back into Tier 3, I asked myself "Why even put up with this handicap?" so I switched back to my MAD-IIC-D "EZ Mode" mech with a 2HAG30 2ERLL build that I ripped off from BrioS and within 1 match was back into Tier 2 and have now won enough matches to have a nice little buffer.


I've been thinking about this very thing for a while now. I've played the game long enough and own enough mechs to have noticed that loading up Omni-mechs with all sort of fixed components seriously screws up some of them. Examples:

EXE-C: Has 2xClass 1 Jump Jets in each leg for a total of 8 tons in jump jets, a huge waste of tonnage and blocks putting ammo in the legs. The head and CT slots are blocked off. I own this mech and if its LT gets blown off later in a match I could be out of ammo because there is nowhere else to store it. (Ammo gets drawn from the RT first)

MLX-D: Mech is packed with 6xJump Jets eating up weight and space. I have two UAC builds for it: UAC5 2xMicro Laser / UAC2 2xERML. The UAC5 build has 4+ points of armor stripped off every component to save weight. The mech has a Heat Management rating of of 1.68 with UAC5 Micro Lasers and 1.45 with UAC2 ERML which is overkill but all mechs are required to have 10x heat sinks and the 3 DHS in the MLX-D's body are fixed so I can't remove them. These builds wouldn't even be possible without the massive +ammo quirks on the mech. This mech is bad and always will be bad because it can't pack enough firepower to be a threat due to all the fixed components/engine on it.

I don't own a Viper Scaleshot but I know it has massive +200% SRM ammo quirks. (LOL) When a mech needs huge ammo quirks to feed its weapons that indicates there's something constraining design choices for the mech. These sorts of ammo quirks are very common on Omni mechs because their builds are so rigid. 8x Jump Jets and a massive XL 320 engine on the Scaleshot alone. Would allowing the Scaleshot to remove 2 Jump jets and lower its engine size make it overpowered? Not if you reduce the absurd +ammo quirks it wouldn't. The fact that it has those +ammo quirks prove the mech is operating well outside normal build constraints and is therefore overpowered.

Possible solutions for Omni-mechs:
- Make 1 heat sink optional.
- Make 2 Jump Jets optional, prioritizing leg jump jets, 1 in each leg if present.
- Omni-Engines. Add an "Engine" category in the Omnipods section of the MechLab giving a narrow choice of 3-5 engine sizes. (Still very limited but not fixed, any heat sink slots are automatically filled with heat sinks)


Not if the quirks that are given to them to compensate for their rigid build limitations are rescaled accordingly.

back when the clans were introduced jump jets were modular i had a kit fox with a bunch of modular jump jets then i come back online and the mech was invalid for having 'too many jumpjets' which the only way to remove was rebuilding the mech entirely as the modular jump jets were now hidden under the fixed jump
jets.I think jump jets should be hardpoints like weapons on ominmechs. almost everything else is a hard point ECM weapons... the only thing that isn't and fairly so is probes ammo and heat sinks.

Edited by KursedVixen, 28 May 2024 - 04:24 PM.

[MechMaster059]

KursedVixen, on 28 May 2024 - 04:23 PM, said:

back when the clans were introduced jump jets were modular i had a kit fox with a bunch of modular jump jets then i come back online and the mech was invalid for having 'too many jumpjets' which the only way to remove was rebuilding the mech entirely as the modular jump jets were now hidden under the fixed jump

Doh! Well at least that show's PGI is willing to make their player base rework their mechs if a change is worth making.

KursedVixen, on 28 May 2024 - 04:23 PM, said:

jets.I think jump jets should be hardpoints like weapons on ominmechs. almost everything else is a hard point ECM weapons... the only thing that isn't and fairly so is probes ammo and heat sinks.

I can see many of the components being fixed if the goal is to insure a certain feel for an Omni-mech. For example keeping a MASC fixed and keeping most of the JJs fixed. The problem is keeping EVERYTHING fixed except the weapons. Omni-mechs need a little breathing room, that's all.

Edited by MechMaster059, 28 May 2024 - 05:57 PM.

[KursedVixen]

MechMaster059, on 28 May 2024 - 05:56 PM, said:

Not if the quirks that are given to them to compensate for their rigid build limitations are rescaled accordingly.

Very few omnis on the clan side have good quirks to begin with many aren't even kept together. I still don't understand the set of 8 thing i mean the point of the omni is flexibility of parts but the whole set of 8 thing messes that up and some set of 8 aren't even worth it. and the legs almost never have quirks...

But back on topic considering that the dire has a fixed engine and only a 300 and the fact it goes 54 kph in lore it should get a 5% speed tweak quirk on all the DWF chanssis put on the CT or something. but no more or less than 5% which would get it up to 51 kph so still not lore speed but defintly faster than it is.

Edited by KursedVixen, 29 May 2024 - 03:53 PM.

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 22 May 2024 - 10:22 AM, said:

The dire wolves lore speed is 54 kph

No, it isn't. It never has been - the Dire Wolf has a 300XL in tabletop, and always has.

Now, Clan 'mechs often have fewer quirks because of their omnipod flexibility. If you can swap out hardpoints to get the configuration (or quirks) that you need, quirks are less needed. My Blood Asp uses non-stock omnipods to achieve a 4xballistic build while still fielding ECM. It's quite brutal. Conversely Set-of-8 bonuses are there to balance that flexibility out by rewarding stock pods. All of my Huntsmen including the Pakhet, and my Linebacker Prime, all use the Set-of-8 bonuses in their builds. On the Inner Sphere side, the Set-of-8 bonuses coincide with the stock pods, with the O rewarding stock pods with modest durability quirks, and the OX boosting Medium Laser builds - even as many emerging Grim-Mechs builds ignore those bonuses in favor of better omnipods or simply alternate weapon configurations.

[MechMaster059]

Void Angel, on 29 May 2024 - 01:32 PM, said:

No, it isn't. It never has been - the Dire Wolf has a 300XL in tabletop, and always has.

...

Well according to the SARNA page you linked, you're both right LOL. That page shows a 300XL engine AND a speed of 54 kph. (To make things even more confusing, the text in the description states a speed of 32.4 kph !?)



Does PGI need to update their algorithm for determining mech speed because according to that SARNA page, 300 XL = 54 kph on a 100 tonner.

Edited by MechMaster059, 29 May 2024 - 05:07 PM.

[KursedVixen]

MechMaster059, on 29 May 2024 - 04:24 PM, said:

Well according to the SARNA page you linked, you're both right LOL. That page shows a 300XL engine AND a speed of 54 kph. (To make things even more confusing, the text in the description states a speed of 32.4 kph !?)

32 is it's walking/cruising speed 54 is it's maximium speed Aka run speed.
200 rated engine is correct
Annihilator

Oddly the 400 gives the right speed
Kodiak

so why doesn't the 300? what is it about the 300 that screws everything up?

somehow the stone rhino goes 54 with a 300 as well
Stone Rhino
Imp
Amarok

and on the inner sphere side
Archangel
Marauder II
Fafnir

ancient design still goes 54 with a 300
Mackie

so far the only thing i've seen that goes slow with a 300 is an industrial mech or quad are you seriously telling me a DIre wolf a front line clan omni has an industrial mech engine?

DIomede
Great Turtle

I guess instead of giving the dire a speed tweak quirk the 300 engines needs fixed

Edited by KursedVixen, 29 May 2024 - 05:48 PM.

[Void Angel]

Ergh, you're right - that's kind of an error, but now I see the confusion. A 300-rated engine yields 3 walking MP which means a top speed fo 48KPH. Sarna lists the same top speed for the Atlas, with the same engine rating, but lists a variant with a 400 engine rating as having a max speed of 64kph. The problem is, that top speed, while technically canonical, breaks the tabletop game's physics.

To break down the math, a hex is 30 meters, and a turn is ten seconds (in tabletop, where the movement speeds are derived.) So that works out to 3m/s, or 10800m/h - or 10.8kph. So, 3 walking MP (300XL/100Tons) is 32.4 - and since running MP is 1.5 times, the correct top speed is 48.6kph.

But tabletop doesn't really deal in kph - it deals in movement points. And since movement has to be in whole units of MP, they round the Atlas (and Dire Wolf) to 3/5 MP. This is a necessary fudge to satisfy the game's engine, but it throws engine balance out of whack. Because a 'mech with 2 walking MP will have a mere 3 running MP - if you express that as a ratio, their walking speed is 67% of their running speed. But a 'mech with a 3 walking speed would have a 60% ratio; if the walking speed was 7, the ratio would be 64%. It jacks everything up and allows some 'mechs to be faster than the actual 'mech construction rules say they should be. It was a necessary fudge in tabletop Battletech, it's not necessary in MWO.

So yes, the Dire Wolf's listed speed - in the tabletop rules where it didn't actually matter, was 54kph. And if anyone really cared about that, they'd be asking for the Atlas, Fafnir, Banshee, etc to be buffed as well.

So no, PGI's algorithm is correct - tabletop's listed speeds are in error because of a rounding process made necessary by its map tiles and movement system.

[KursedVixen]

Void Angel, on 29 May 2024 - 05:38 PM, said:

So yes, the Dire Wolf's listed speed - in the tabletop rules where it didn't actually matter, was 54kph. And if anyone really cared about that, they'd be asking for the Atlas, Fafnir, Banshee, etc to be buffed as well.

Kinda just did indirectly but in a more fair manner by buffing the 300 rated engine.

KursedVixen, on 29 May 2024 - 05:24 PM, said:

I guess instead of giving the dire a speed tweak quirk the 300 engines needs fixed so give the

also it seems to me that MWO uses the running speed and not walking/cruising speed.

so why does the 200 and 400 rate engine list correctly while the 300 does not? even if it was a rounding error that would only translated to 53 instead of 54 at most.

since your not giving out the formula for speed i cannot say anymore than that.

i still think the 300 rated engine needs a slight buff.

Edited by KursedVixen, 29 May 2024 - 06:32 PM.