39 replies to this topic

[MechMaster059]

Void Angel, on 29 May 2024 - 05:38 PM, said:

...

So yes, the Dire Wolf's listed speed - in the tabletop rules where it didn't actually matter, was 54kph. And if anyone really cared about that, they'd be asking for the Atlas, Fafnir, Banshee, etc to be buffed as well.

..

I've read your post and believe you. The true speed of a DWF is 48.6 kph. Here's the problem, all those other mechs you listed HAVE A CHOICE in engine size. The Dire Wolf doesn't and I've play-tested the DWF enough in Tier 2 to know it's too slow. If players want to overload an Anni or Fafnir with weapons and take the associated risks in doing so, then that's there prerogative, but DWF pilots are stuck with a slow-azz engine. I'm of the mindset that ultimately, in-game balance trumps EVERYTING.

I think the optimal solution is to loosen up Omni-mech build choices but I realize that's too much work to be a realistic solution for this game and would be more appropriate to implement in MWO 2, therefore, I think the best solution is to give all variants of the DWF a +5% speed quirk.

[KursedVixen]

MechMaster059, on 29 May 2024 - 06:05 PM, said:

I've read your post and believe you. The true speed of a DWF is 48.6 kph. Here's the problem, all those other mechs you listed HAVE A CHOICE in engine size. The Dire Wolf doesn't and I've play-tested the DWF enough in Tier 2 to know it's too slow. If players want to overload an Anni or Fafnir with weapons and take the associated risks in doing so, then that's there prerogative, but DWF pilots are stuck with a slow-azz engine. I'm of the mindset that ultimately, in-game balance trumps EVERYTING.

I think the optimal solution is to loosen up Omni-mech build choices but I realize that's too much work to be a realistic solution for this game and would be more appropriate to implement in MWO 2, therefore, I think the best solution is to give all variants of the DWF a +5% speed quirk.

Besids what's ~3 more KPH?

Edited by KursedVixen, 29 May 2024 - 07:09 PM.

[Void Angel]

You tell me - after all, you want it. You just don't want to skill for it.

MechMaster059, on 29 May 2024 - 06:05 PM, said:

I've read your post and believe you. The true speed of a DWF is 48.6 kph. Here's the problem, all those other mechs you listed HAVE A CHOICE in engine size. The Dire Wolf doesn't and I've play-tested the DWF enough in Tier 2 to know it's too slow. If players want to overload an Anni or Fafnir with weapons and take the associated risks in doing so, then that's there prerogative, but DWF pilots are stuck with a slow-azz engine. I'm of the mindset that ultimately, in-game balance trumps EVERYTING.

In-game balance does trump lore! Which is my objection entirely. By the way, guess what the maximum engine rating of an Annihilator is? (As the question tells you, it's 300.) Now, you can go slower! But 48KPH is about the slowest viable speed on the battlefield - and it is viable. If you're having trouble, swap out some of those cooldown nodes for Speed Tweak, but you really can make that 48.6kph work; I've done it in Tier 1. I've had people (more than once) complain about their 54kph Atlases getting "left behind," back in the day, before the Clans or the Annihilator existed. And there I was, maining an Atlas brawler without issues. At least, not that issue.

The key is to keep moving: know where to go and how to get there efficiently. I lost track of how many times people in the original Caustic Valle map who would pilot slow Assaults, often start to pre-complain with "please don't leave Assaults behind," and then get shot at by a 20-50-ton 'mech with medium lasers from two grids away. And stop. And try to return fire, spamming "needs assistance," and then cry bitterly when they were destroyed in the open terrain where they tried to fight the entire enemy team. Meanwhile, I had driven my equally slow Atlas past them, spreading damage and telling them to keep moving (being ignored,) and reached safety with a bit of armor damage. Sure, sometimes you just get morons who won't stop circling the drain; but this is a tactical problem, not a build problem: you'd have exactly the same experience as the only 54kph 'mech on the field. I know I have. Generally, if you pick efficient routes you can avoid being left in the dust completely - and still be close enough to the team that some of your slower teammates will have stopped to try and kill the over-extended fast 'mechs who are chasing you.

Yeah, all Omnimechs have hard-locked engines; it is a built-in limitation of that kind of 'mech. The Dire Wolf's engine size is part of the whole package - right along with its quirks and weapon hardpoint options - and the Dire Wolf is still a top-tier ranged combatant - it's very tough and still packs a lot of boomstick. Nobody wants to trade shots with a Dire Wolf. It's just not peerless any more; and the price you pay for being able to mix and match hardpoints to optimize your loadout is having that slow speed.

If we buff all the slow 'mechs in the game - say, make all of them go at least 54kph unless they drop engine rating, that will buff those 'mechs, but unevenly because of the increasing cost of higher engine rating. If the Dire Wolf wasn't a top-tier boomstick, maybe it'd be a good idea, but as things are, I just don't see it being worth the disruption in the game.

Edited by Void Angel, 30 May 2024 - 09:07 AM.

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 29 May 2024 - 06:01 PM, said:

since your not giving out the formula for speed i cannot say anymore than that.

I literally ran through that math. 30m hex, 10-second turn - if you're crossing one hex in ten seconds, that's 3m/s, 180m/min, 10800m/hr, which means it's 10.8kph per MP. MWO calculates top speed (running) exactly the same as tabletop Battletech; the difference from tabletop is that MWO can adhere to the formula in its game mechanics, but tabletop cannot (since it's using a hex map, it cannot have fractional MP.)

So! If you have a 3 walking MP, 3x1.5=4.5 hexes, which the game rounds up to 5 running MP. But if you pay the extra tonnage to bump up to 4MP (you had to buy engine rating in units of your 'mech's tonnage, to get a whole number as your walking MP,) you'd only get 6MP, an increase of just one to your max speed - while dropping down yields a drop of 2 MP to your max for losing 1 walking MP. It's messy, and MWO rightly did away with that by simply using tabletop's formula as-is and ignoring the artificial engine rating and rounding rules, which existed to match MPs with hex maps - neither of which exist here.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dire Wolf is fine, it doesn't need speed tweak to compete you just need to learn how to play it. Friendly reminder as well that the Annihilator is a battlemech and stuck with a 300 engine cap (Stone Crusher is the only one to have a higher one and it's only 325).

Now if we want to talk loosening omnimech restrictions that's a different topic completely. One that I'm for because omnimechs have hampered a number of chassis requiring gigaquirks. Not to mention the So8 quirks actively incentivizing players to play with stock hardpoints negating the benefit of omnipods on top of the nightmare that is balancing omnipods with their interchanging nature. But I've been for that for a long time because the Omnimech restrictions hid how powerful Clan tech was until we got solid battlemechs like the Hunchie IIC, Vapor Eagle, Incubus, and Stone Rhino.

Doesn't matter though, this late in the game it just ain't happening.

Also, for reference the speed formula is this:

16.2 * Engine Rating / Chassis Tonnage = Top Speed

Dire Wolf: 16.2 * 300 / 100 = 48.6kph (54kph in TT)
Timber Wolf: 16.2 * 375 / 75 = 81kph (86.4kph in TT)

Anything with an odd walking MP will have discrepancies between TT and MWO because of how TT rounds (ever mech with an odd walk MP has 5.4kph higher speed in TT than it realistically should). The 16.2 in the speed formula is also just the 10.8kph per MP times 1.5 since running speed is meant to be a 50% increase from walking speed since rating divided by tonnage is what determines the walk MP.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 30 May 2024 - 09:44 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Void Angel, on 29 May 2024 - 05:38 PM, said:

So yes, the Dire Wolf's listed speed - in the tabletop rules where it didn't actually matter, was 54kph. And if anyone really cared about that, they'd be asking for the Atlas, Fafnir, Banshee, etc to be buffed as well.

all of those listed mechs not only can change their engine but come with higher than 300 rated engine options avalible.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 30 May 2024 - 09:26 AM, said:

Now if we want to talk loosening omnimech restrictions that's a different topic completely. One that I'm for because omnimechs have hampered a number of chassis requiring gigaquirks. Not to mention the So8 quirks actively incentivizing players to play with stock hardpoints negating the benefit of omnipods on top of the nightmare that is balancing omnipods with their interchanging nature. But I've been for that for a long time because the Omnimech restrictions hid how powerful Clan tech was until we got solid battlemechs like the Hunchie IIC, Vapor Eagle, Incubus, and Stone Rhino.

I do think some omni restrictions should be removed specifically fixed components aside from the engine, structure and armor. and yes the set of 8 system needs revamped as it really does deter customizing omnipods...

Edited by KursedVixen, 30 May 2024 - 04:44 PM.

[Void Angel]

Loosening restrictions on hard-locked components will help some chassis, but at the cost of helping already-functional chassis that don't need it. I'd be ok with some level of that conceptually, but we have to realize that it would necessitate yet another overhaul of Clan tech - and I don't see that happening at this stage of the game.

[Void Angel]

PS: On the subject of speed, it should be noted that my favorite Stone Rhino build goes just under 50kph with Speed Tweak. I have to account for that, but it's not a problem, per se.

[MechMaster059]

Void Angel, on 30 May 2024 - 09:06 AM, said:

By the way, guess what the maximum engine rating of an Annihilator is?
...

The maximum engine rating of an Awesome is 300 but since it weighs 80 tons its top speed is 60.8 kph. The Dire Wolf and Annihilator are the only mechs in the game stuck with a max speed of 48.6 kph. I didn't realize it was such a small number of mechs. That's a bad sign and is making me wonder if the Annihilator could use a speed quirk as well. I've never played an Annihilator so I don't know for sure but some things I've seen on the battlefield are starting to make more sense now.

I've played against Sneaky Snek in his Gausszilla many many times, probably over 3 dozen times. Now that I think about it, he always seems to position himself on a far flank trying to hide behind a rock formation and there he stays for most of the match extending outward a ~1,400m zone of control. Canyon Network and HIbernal Rift both have such rock formations on the flanks and Emerald Valley has the rock spires along the edges of the hills. I can't remember the last time I saw him move past his team's half of the map and he seldom even moves into the center of the map. It's probably too risky for him to do so in such a ponderous mech.

Void Angel, on 30 May 2024 - 09:06 AM, said:

But 48KPH is about the slowest viable speed on the battlefield - and it is viable.
...

Yeahhhhhh.... I'm not so sure about that anymore. This speed isn't a problem in Tier 5 - Tier 3 but the disadvantage in Tier 2 was noticeable to a degree that felt a little "off", as in, beyond typical mech design trade-offs. I say "was" in the past tense because I've decided I'm not going to play the DWF again until I get well into Tier 1 and don't need to worry about gaining rating anymore.

Void Angel, on 30 May 2024 - 09:06 AM, said:

The key is to keep moving: know where to go and how to get there efficiently.
...

I suspect this is the case but I'm simply not going to take the chance on any slow mech until I'm much father into Tier 2 at least. My MAD-IIC-D moves at 59.7 kph with Speed Tweak 3 and has an ECM so it's a much safer mech to pilot.

Void Angel, on 30 May 2024 - 09:06 AM, said:

Yeah, all Omnimechs have hard-locked engines; it is a built-in limitation of that kind of 'mech.
...

It would be VERY VERY BAD if this limitation was carried over into MWO 2 if PGI is thinking of making such a game. Modifying engines size is the easiest way to free up tonnage and many Omni-mechs have over-sized engines that screw up their design. This is something that would be worth PGI's effort to discuss with whoever owns or is responsible for Battletech licensing and have them introduce some kind of new expansion into the lore for more customizable Omni-mechs. (The year is 5,167 and some newly developed AWESOME TECH by Clan Wolf has made possible customizable Omni-mechs!!! blah blah blah....)

Void Angel, on 30 May 2024 - 09:06 AM, said:

Nobody wants to trade shots with a Dire Wolf.

I'm not trying to be a **** but is that a real build? It seems a little goofy with 3 different sizes of UAC and even if you take ½ ton of UAC20 ammo and shift it over to UAC5 ammo, the UAC5s and 10s would still be dangerously under-ammoed. A UAC cannon can easily rip through 1½ tons of ammo.

Void Angel, on 30 May 2024 - 09:06 AM, said:

If we buff all the slow 'mechs in the game - say, make all of them go at least 54kph unless they drop engine rating...

I would reiterate that KursedVixen is NOT advocating for a speed of 54 kph, nor am I in this thread. The request is merely for a +5% speed quirk which results in a new top speed of 51 kph, equivalent to a 95 ton mech with a 300 engine. That's it. Think of it as giving the DWF (and possibly the ANH) speed characteristics of a 95 ton mech instead of a 100 ton mech, not a big deal. They would both still likely be the slowest mechs on their team most of the time with such a quirk.

Void Angel, on 30 May 2024 - 04:42 PM, said:

PS: On the subject of speed, it should be noted that my favorite Stone Rhino build ...

Bro, how do you not run out of ammo on something like that? I realize the more weapons a mech packs the more even the ammo draw and each additional weapon eases the ammo burden of the other weapons but 1½ tons of ammo / UAC? No way you can keeps those guns ammoed up if you survive into the end game.

=====

Quicksilver Aberration, on 30 May 2024 - 09:26 AM, said:

...
Friendly reminder as well that the Annihilator is a battlemech and stuck with a 300 engine cap
...

As I said to Void Angel, it's a bad sign that only 2 mechs in the game are restricted to a max speed of 48.6 kph and shows what a significant handicap it is.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 30 May 2024 - 09:26 AM, said:

...
Doesn't matter though, this late in the game it just ain't happening.

Understood. I was thinking about Omnipod changes more for MWO 2 if PGI ever makes it.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 30 May 2024 - 09:26 AM, said:

Also, for reference the speed formula is this:

16.2 * Engine Rating / Chassis Tonnage = Top Speed
...

Thanks for this info.

Edited by MechMaster059, 30 May 2024 - 05:57 PM.

[Void Angel]

MechMaster059, on 30 May 2024 - 05:42 PM, said:

I'm not trying to be a **** but is that a real build? It seems a little goofy with 3 different sizes of UAC and even if you take ½ ton of UAC20 ammo and shift it over to UAC5 ammo, the UAC5s and 10s would still be dangerously under-ammoed. A UAC cannon can easily rip through 1½ tons of ammo.

Bro, how do you not run out of ammo on something like that? I realize the more weapons a mech packs the more even the ammo draw and each additional weapon eases the ammo burden of the other weapons but 1½ tons of ammo / UAC? No way you can keeps those guns ammoed up if you survive into the end game.

Those aren't UACs.

That 'mech carries 1,980 damage in ammunition, before ammo skills. I'm not pumping out UAC bursts, thus burning through it at a steady rate, so assuming I hit only half my shots, and blow through all that ammo, I'm still going to be doing a lot of damage - even if some of my shots are taken outside optimal range. It's plenty of ammo, and I can hold down my triggers for nearly 20 seconds before I start to take overheat damage. At 24.8 dps before skills, if you underestimate the fact that 54% of his weight is pure autocannon, Stumbles will wreck you.

Don't be mean to Stumbles; many before you have fooled around and found out. =)

Edited by Void Angel, 30 May 2024 - 06:30 PM.

[MechMaster059]

Void Angel, on 30 May 2024 - 06:12 PM, said:

Those aren't UACs.

...

Ah yes, that explains it... LOL. Your DWF build was UACs and I saw the C-ACx on the SR and at a glace assumed they were UACs.

[Void Angel]

You're not the first, actually. UACs have so much better burst damage, and the c-ACs were sub-par for so long, they're kind of below people's radar.

UACs of this caliber would fit, by the way - but would be unusably hot, all for a 3.8dps increase and 4/7ths of the AtO without accounting for heat scale penalties. Now that I math it out, it's still got 1,950 damage, but it would be unsustainable in practice.

Edited by Void Angel, 30 May 2024 - 07:01 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechMaster059, on 30 May 2024 - 05:42 PM, said:

As I said to Void Angel, it's a bad sign that only 2 mechs in the game are restricted to a max speed of 48.6 kph and shows what a significant handicap it is.

The reason for it is less sinister than you seem to suppose. Used to be the formula for max engine for battlemechs was something like 1.2 * stock engine rating. Annihilator got a special pass because of how slow a 240 rated engine would've been because its stock is only a 200 engine. If there were more stock 200 rated engine 100 ton assaults, you would see more mechs capped at that speed.

Regardless, the Whale is still the worst thing to pick from this conversation because it's had its days in the sun and is still on the stronger end of assaults. If you wanted to pick omnimechs that are hampered by their stock engine all you needed to do was look at 3 Clan lights that need serious quirks to be relevant.

[KursedVixen]

MechMaster059, on 30 May 2024 - 05:42 PM, said:

I would reiterate that KursedVixen is NOT advocating for a speed of 54 kph, nor am I in this thread. The request is merely for a +5% speed quirk which results in a new top speed of 51 kph, equivalent to a 95 ton mech with a 300 engine. That's it. Think of it as giving the DWF (and possibly the ANH) speed characteristics of a 95 ton mech instead of a 100 ton mech, not a big deal. They would both still likely be the slowest mechs on their team most of the time with such a quirk.

i would say the same for the anni. i'll only be happy when it's 54 on both the anni and the DWF. Though i'd be happy with just 51 stock because speed tweak cost too many skill points

this edit brought to you by Void Angel

Edited by KursedVixen, 01 June 2024 - 07:32 PM.

[Void Angel]

Good news, you can be happy! It's called Speed Tweak, in the skill tree.

[Heat Skink]

Void Angel, on 01 June 2024 - 05:59 PM, said:

Good news, you can be happy! It's called Speed Tweak, in the skill tree.

Bad, news it cost a bunch of skill tree points that could be better used elsewhere.

Doesn't sound like good news to me at all.

Edited by A Werewolf, 07 June 2024 - 09:05 AM.

[Void Angel]

A Werewolf, on 07 June 2024 - 09:05 AM, said:

Bad, news it cost a bunch of skill tree points that could be better used elsewhere.

Doesn't sound like good news to me at all.

Incorrect. Many builds are heat-limited, particularly when energy weapons are involved. A good number of my Assault builds use Speed Tweak, because reaching overheat faster doesn't help as much as the added mobility.

[Heat Skink]

Void Angel, on 07 June 2024 - 09:41 AM, said:

Incorrect. Many builds are heat-limited, particularly when energy weapons are involved. A good number of my Assault builds use Speed Tweak, because reaching overheat faster doesn't help as much as the added mobility.

that's the most insane word salad i've seen on this forum.. WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO OVERHEAT FASTER!?!?

That's like dumping all your heat sinks.....

Edited by A Werewolf, 07 June 2024 - 09:44 AM.

[Void Angel]

Rule of thumb: If you are agreeing with KursedVixen in any debate with me about game balance, you are extremely likely to be wrong.

Do note the days-late, small-font edit so that she didn't have to deal with a rebuttal. That's not the behavior of someone you want to listen to.

[Void Angel]

A Werewolf, on 07 June 2024 - 09:43 AM, said:

that's the most insane word salad i've seen on this forum.. WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO OVERHEAT FASTER!?!?

That's like dumping all your heat sinks.....

...

Because heat is a resource spent to inflict damage. More cooldown nodes in the skill tree let you spend that resource faster, inflicting more damage and speeding you on your way to overheat. But if you're using a hot build (or a slow 'mech) it can be counterproductive to invest in too many Cooldown nodes - or any of them, in fact. Laser Vomit is the clearest example; those builds are based on trading: you hammer someone with an alpha, two if they're not shooting back at you, then back into cover to cool. Builds like this can do a lot of damage, but struggle with heat if they're making rapid trades or are forced into sustained combat - in other words, they're heat-capped and unable to fire at their max rate anyway in those situations. Cooldown nodes help those kinds of builds significantly less than other built types, so pulling seven nodes out of Cooldown to grab Speed Tweak (while still keeping the other essential skill nodes on a non-ECM 'mec) is quite worthwhile.

Just because you didn't understand me, it doesn't mean I was "incoherent." If you want to snap and snarl at people whenever they push back against your hostility, you're not going to get much more help in this game.