66 replies to this topic

[pattonesque]

Many times I see folks in this game, when faced with an option of where to deploy at the outset of a match, choosing the low ground.

Please stop doing this.

There are of course a number of times where going in the low ground might be a good idea. You could be a lighter mech going for a flank. You might be transitioning from high ground to high ground. The high ground might have become untenable and going low is the only way you can save yourself. Other scenarios exist where the low ground is a better option.

Every other time, though, you should at least contest the high ground. Don't let the other team have it for free. Why's that?

• High ground is free cover from low ground.
  
• High ground gives you way better angles than low ground
  
• High ground lets you pick your fights way better than low ground
  
• High ground lets you drop to low ground if you need to. Low ground does not offer the same option

Think about it this way: imagine there are two buttons. Button one (the high ground) gives you a higher chance of winning the game at the expense of maybe taking some long range fire at the beginning of the match. Button two (the low ground) gives you a lower chance of winning the game but allows you to hide from fire for a longer period of time. You would obviously never hit the second button if you were trying to win the game. But many -- I would even say most! -- players hammer the second button without thinking.

So please stop immediately going to the low ground. Sun-Tzu figured this out thousands of years ago and told a bunch of noble failsons they were doing it wrong. You can do much better.

[feeWAIVER]

I always go low to prevent sky lining myself for enemy flashlights.
I prefer to go low and hill hump / use my jump jets to get my shots in.

Vitric Station, Mining, Emerald are good examples.

If the enemy starts pushing low, that's when I go high.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

feeWAIVER, on 22 May 2024 - 12:08 PM, said:

I always go low to prevent sky lining myself for enemy flashlights.
I prefer to go low and hill hump / use my jump jets to get my shots in.

This is fine, but I think the post is more about people who stay low and do nothing that entire time other than run away.

Hell you don't even need to shoot anything necessarily as your presence in an area can also act as area denial depending on the positioning depending on the matchup against what mechs you are denying. Oddly enough, basic chess theory can be helpful here as similar concepts apply to MWO as well. in this case the concept of space/spacing. Much like ceding control of the chess board over to the opposition puts you at disadvantage in chess, so to does ceding over map control.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 22 May 2024 - 12:37 PM.

[Nine-Ball]

Its a build thing mostly. After that is mentality followed up by a skill issue.

- short range brawlers don't like being target practice for mechs with ranges greater than 400-500m

- players are too risk adverse and thus give up ideal positioning for fear of being ganked.

- players tend to improperly skill their mechs like not taking faster torso twisting for everything beyond 60 tons. Since they are unable to properly torso twist fast enough to spread the damage, they are less inclined to push open spaces or be "that guy" who takes the brunt of the assault when making a push.

[Gasboy]

Sometimes you have to go low, it is a good way to get somewhere unspotted.

But it's always bad to be 'fish in a barrel'.

Honestly, on some maps, the only way up for non-JJ mechs is to conga-line up narrowly defined 'ramps', and in others most higher areas are completely denied to non-JJ mechs. So you don't always get a choice. This isn't a bad thing, necessarily.

[TheCaptainJZ]

High ground is usually strategically superior, but it depends on your build. If you can't trade at sniper range, you're taking a gamble that 3 or 4 enemy mechs can take you out pretty quickly. Vitric is the map that comes to mind. If your whole team takes top, you are in a stronger position but if only a couple of your team go top first, and the enemy team outranges and outnumbers you, you can get torn up in no time.

(Personally, I would like to see a pair of ramps on the other side of the base structure, rather than only the extreme ends and the middle. It needs a midpoint ramp to be able to get up there too.)

[Tarl Cabot]

The issue is when the bulk of the team stays in the low grounds, causing them to BE the fish in the barrel, allowing the reds free reign on the map. The maps that are the worse would be Canyon Network and Hibernal Rift with Hellebore Springs being a distance third.

[LordNothing]

fight in a hole die in a hole.

of course dont stand on a hill in a brawler either.

[Bud Crue]

Nine-Ball, on 22 May 2024 - 01:43 PM, said:

Its a build thing mostly. After that is mentality followed up by a skill issue.

- short range brawlers don't like being target practice for mechs with ranges greater than 400-500m

The number of times I have to stop myself from saying something snide in all-chat when some ultra T1, pseudo-comp player starts to lecture that we should have "taken the high ground" on Vitric or Canyon/Hybernal 10 seconds into the match (but of course they only say these things after the match is a clear loss) when my 4-man is running Ac-20 Hunchies-4Gs never gets old. So apparently the "meta" folks think a mech with a 270m range build should be trading at 1.7K, from the very start of the match, in an utterly exposed position for the "meta" players running Gauss/ERLL, Hags, C-Erppc, etc. builds. Please, all you comp folks explain to me WTF a mech with brawler weapons is supposed to do at that sort of range other than to act as a meat shield for you? Yes, yes, I know us lessors are supposed to just go forth and distract so that you can farm, but if that is really the case, is it too much to ask that you stop complaining when we do exactly what you want us to do? Do we really need to hold your hand as well?

[pattonesque]

Bud Crue, on 22 May 2024 - 07:24 PM, said:

The number of times I have to stop myself from saying something snide in all-chat when some ultra T1, pseudo-comp player starts to lecture that we should have "taken the high ground" on Vitric or Canyon/Hybernal 10 seconds into the match (but of course they only say these things after the match is a clear loss) when my 4-man is running Ac-20 Hunchies-4Gs never gets old. So apparently the "meta" folks think a mech with a 270m range build should be trading at 1.7K, from the very start of the match, in an utterly exposed position for the "meta" players running Gauss/ERLL, Hags, C-Erppc, etc. builds. Please, all you comp folks explain to me WTF a mech with brawler weapons is supposed to do at that sort of range other than to act as a meat shield for you? Yes, yes, I know us lessors are supposed to just go forth and distract so that you can farm, but if that is really the case, is it too much to ask that you stop complaining when we do exactly what you want us to do? Do we really need to hold your hand as well?

This feels like a lot of baggage but I'll go over it pretty straightforwardly.

you obviously don't need to expose to snipers right at the start of the match. part of the original advice I offered was that moving through low ground is fine so long as you're doing so in order to transition to high ground. How you do this is largely up to you. On Canyon you can pop up on a ridge when you're in an advantageous spot to do so. the main problem on that map is when folks beeline for the valleys because they got shot once. that just gives the other team the initiative.

On Vitric there is a short window in which you'll get shot as a brawler from the other side if you take high ground. but that angle is pretty quickly closed if you advance. If you go low ground you likely will not get shot early, but you're at the mercy of folks on the high ground who are peeking from a bunch of potential angles to dump an alpha in your face.

So basically you don't need to act as a meat shield for other mechs. you need to take an advantageous (usually high) position that allows you to engage at your optimal range. Sometimes doing so means a blue laser might tickle you two or three times but this is not a particularly big deal if you don't allow yourself to panic and freak out when it happens.

[cougurt]

Bud Crue, on 22 May 2024 - 07:24 PM, said:

The number of times I have to stop myself from saying something snide in all-chat when some ultra T1, pseudo-comp player starts to lecture that we should have "taken the high ground" on Vitric or Canyon/Hybernal 10 seconds into the match (but of course they only say these things after the match is a clear loss) when my 4-man is running Ac-20 Hunchies-4Gs never gets old. So apparently the "meta" folks think a mech with a 270m range build should be trading at 1.7K, from the very start of the match, in an utterly exposed position for the "meta" players running Gauss/ERLL, Hags, C-Erppc, etc. builds. Please, all you comp folks explain to me WTF a mech with brawler weapons is supposed to do at that sort of range other than to act as a meat shield for you? Yes, yes, I know us lessors are supposed to just go forth and distract so that you can farm, but if that is really the case, is it too much to ask that you stop complaining when we do exactly what you want us to do? Do we really need to hold your hand as well?

short range mechs should not be exposing and eating damage at the start of the match for no reason, you are correct about that.

what you should usually be doing is playing patiently near your team (or within their overwatch) and deter the enemy team from pushing or taking ground for free. you can start getting more aggressive if you see a good opening or have picked up some momentum, but unless your team is full sending it from the outset you'll often have to play pretty conservatively for a while.

what you should not be doing is going on a huge nascar flank where the rest of your team is unable to support you. wide flanks are for fast mechs that can pull it off in a timely manner and dip out if things go south.

[Gasboy]

Bud Crue, on 22 May 2024 - 07:24 PM, said:

pseudo-comp player

Please, all you comp folks

There's a difference between pseudo comp and actual comp.

Real comp players understand the difference between brawl and trade. Trade wants to be spotted and traded with, so that the brawl mechs can get in the red team's face.

[Gasboy]

BLXKNTRR, on 25 May 2024 - 12:51 PM, said:

And what we need is a buffed black knight thats rescaled for brawling

No, 'we' don't.

[East Indy]

Nine-Ball, on 22 May 2024 - 01:43 PM, said:

Its a build thing mostly. After that is mentality followed up by a skill issue.

- short range brawlers don't like being target practice for mechs with ranges greater than 400-500m

- players are too risk adverse and thus give up ideal positioning for fear of being ganked.

- players tend to improperly skill their mechs like not taking faster torso twisting for everything beyond 60 tons. Since they are unable to properly torso twist fast enough to spread the damage, they are less inclined to push open spaces or be "that guy" who takes the brunt of the assault when making a push.

Perfect answer. If you can't trade at range you have to close, so to do that you need cover and ideally loss of contact. Hence: low ground.

What an effective advance/flank does require, however, is aggression and cooperative intuition. Often, the matchmaker drops too many hesitant/low-awareness players into one team and the center of mass hunkers down. Like, the east side of the F5 ridge on Tourmaline is mid/high-ground and yet it becomes a kill zone due to inaction and ceding of space.

What I find funny is that the mantra of long-range dominating players has always been to use terrain to close for CQC, and this thread is a complaint about it.

[East Indy]

pattonesque, on 22 May 2024 - 07:50 PM, said:

This feels like a lot of baggage

Bud has leeway here, because his groups are usually brawling -- what game-runners insist is a perfectly viable tactic -- and when they're brawling they're always moving efficiently to optimal range.*

Plus, he's right. Too many players -- who chose the "correct" long-range role -- complain about flanking, when what's actually happening is the team is moving away from their favorite farming position.

* I love when his groups drop on my side because I know I have 4 other players to advance with.

[pattonesque]

East Indy, on 26 May 2024 - 07:37 AM, said:

Bud has leeway here, because his groups are usually brawling -- what game-runners insist is a perfectly viable tactic -- and when they're brawling they're always moving efficiently to optimal range.*

Plus, he's right. Too many players -- who chose the "correct" long-range role -- complain about flanking, when what's actually happening is the team is moving away from their favorite farming position.

* I love when his groups drop on my side because I know I have 4 other players to advance with.

I don't like it when his groups drop on my side because he loses more than he wins, even in a 4-man.

and again, it's fine if you're using low ground to move into a better position. I mentioned this in the original post. it's not fine if you move into low ground and then chill there.

[An6ryMan69]

The main issue with low ground in QP is it is NOT being chosen for some intelligent, tactical reason.

Once in a rare while you see a MG based piranha, or micro-pulse gargoyle, laying low until he can safely get to work in-close, but those situations are definitely the exception.

99% of people are hiding and hoping their more assertive team members basically win the game for them, period. That's why they are in the low ground.

Unless you are in an LRM boat in the low ground absolutely lighting up your launchers and effectively hitting targets from a sheltered position, you're just dead weight, and hiding. That's it.

Edited by An6ryMan69, 27 May 2024 - 10:50 AM.

[martian]

An6ryMan69, on 27 May 2024 - 10:48 AM, said:

Unless you are in an LRM boat in the low ground absolutely lighting up your launchers and effectively hitting targets from a sheltered position, you're just dead weight, and hiding. That's it.

I hate when such hiding Lurmer is not even firing his missiles to hit some enemy 'Mech that I am actually spotting or tagging.

[cougurt]

East Indy, on 26 May 2024 - 07:37 AM, said:

Bud has leeway here, because his groups are usually brawling -- what game-runners insist is a perfectly viable tactic -- and when they're brawling they're always moving efficiently to optimal range.*

Plus, he's right. Too many players -- who chose the "correct" long-range role -- complain about flanking, when what's actually happening is the team is moving away from their favorite farming position.

* I love when his groups drop on my side because I know I have 4 other players to advance with.

they complain about it because those "farming positions" usually help your team control the map. immediately giving that up to go on a (often unsuccessful) flank is not the play. moving up and getting into range is fine, but ideally you want to be somewhere that will allow the rest of the team to support you. in fact, if your ranged mechs can hold a position and trade it will generally open up more routes for you to close in, it just requires a bit of patience.

Edited by cougurt, 27 May 2024 - 05:29 PM.

[AnAnachronismAlive]

Main issue: The tendency of players to run around without proper intel via checking ridge / key ground early. Often feels like running through trenches/dugouts without any idea what's happening above the "pasture sod" ... like boxing with your eyes closed until you want to hit your punch.

Seldom to never do I experience matches where somewhat of an advantageous assembly area is taken until the movement/composition of the opfor's main bulk is kinda identified. And yes, brawl build or not ... the risk of exposing yourself early is worth the intel, as long as you do it in favourable terrain. Investing one skillpoint into adv-zoom can be a plus too, if one has issues with his eyesight or monitor.