110 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 12:00 AM, said:

An Assault is not hard-countered by a Light.

A light isn't hard-countered by streaks either.

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 12:00 AM, said:

Streakboats are "hit W and hold down the fire button." It's not the same.

But a light can avoid a Streakboat can't it not? Oh the streakboat is following them? What do you expect the streakboat to do, just stay in their place?

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 12:00 AM, said:

Similarly, throwing up a defunct map that was decommissioned because of that very problem, or the obvious imbalance of the worst map in the game, does not help your case.

You really don't get the point of certain builds working better on certain maps, and to be disadvantaged by bringing none of those builds? Point really whizzed over your head there, lol.

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 12:00 AM, said:

I have commented on all those issues in other threads, so you are misattributing opinions you'd like me to have - because they are easy to argue against - in direct defiance of empirical evidence to the contrary. Heck, if you'd been paying attention, you would have noticed that I mentioned that all lock-on weapons need a rework. In this thread. On this page.

Hmm. I really don't care.

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 12:00 AM, said:

At least you didn't chop it all up into a nearly unreadable word salad of partial quotes and responses this time...

k

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 11:47 PM, said:

You haven't understood my stance on tabletop, so let me explain it again - I've had this discussion a lot over the years. Tabletop isn't a sourcebook for this game, but it very much does contain a lot of the game's flavor.

...

So what I pointed out to you was that there was a reason Streaks were implemented like they were - you did rather... emphatically ask why. But if you'll notice, I've also talked at length about why their specific implementation makes them hellish to balance.

Yet here you are, arguing for them because rulebook.

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 11:47 PM, said:

You're also mistaking a weakness of Assaults for one of the main strengths of Lights. It is emphatically not fair to allow a Streakboat to completely murder a Light simply for doing his job.

Why? Because you said so? Please.

Literally the god damn point of the build is to find lights to slaughter. Preventing the other side to not do their job is exactly the point of killing them -- and that's literally, literally-literally, not just exaggeration -- the game.
So in this case, it's sounding more and more you just want what is fun for you. Got it.

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 11:47 PM, said:

These are diametrically opposed situations, and are not at all equivalent.

I don't care. That's just the game.

[Void Angel]

And we're back to post-dicing to take things out of context. Whee!

Let's see...
You don't care that the situation you brought up as a counter-example is not, in fact, a counter example. Or that your accusations were baseless and based on things you made up - because you literally didn't care enough to check before you threw out accusations. Cool.

Not allowing other players to have a fair chance to fight back is ok, because killing the enemy is "literally, literally, literally" the game - a fair, balanced contest isn't implied at all! The point of a Streak build isn't simply to kill Lights; it's to kill Lights in such a way that the victim can't fight back. Yet Streaks in their current state are also"literally, literally, literally" part of the game - balance isn't a concern only when you want it to be - speaking of "special pleading." You can't say "Streaks should be buffed" and then dismiss balance objections with "that's just the game."

You pointed out the staggeringly unfair matchups possible in the two worst maps in the game - one of which was decommissioned because of its flaws (PH had no blocking cover for LRMs) - as a good example of how a totally unfair matchup between Streaks and Lights is perfectly fine! It's like saying "Of course he mugged you, but that's just city life. People get mugged in subways and parks, too! There's no need for better street lighting where you live - asking for that is just arbitrary special pleading!"

You're deliberately engaging in straw man sophistry - you know it's sophistry because I've told you multiple times that I don't support Streaks being a certain way because of some arcane interpretation of tabletop rules. But for some irrational reason it makes you feel stronger in the argument to continue to insist - at this point it's just staggering dishonesty. If you have to change the facts to shore up your position, you should change what you think instead - rather than just insisting that it's all irrelevant, and you're right because you said so.

The one way in which you've become increasingly honest in your responses is the recurring phrase: "I don't care." Because you don't care - about game balance, what your opponents actually have said, the mechanics of the game... Essentially, you don't care about anything that contradicts your pet opinion - and that's wrong. It's dishonest, and unprofitable even for getting what you want - because if you're willing to make up facts, misrepresent other people's arguments, and dismiss their objections with "I don't care," no reasonable person will be swayed by your griping. You have succeeded only in embarrassing yourself and damaging (if only by association) the ethos of everyone who argues for your cause.

Edited by Void Angel, 21 June 2024 - 02:54 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

And we're back to post-dicing to take things out of context. Whee!

Well, you do ramble on pointless specifics, as if that helps.

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

You don't care that the situation you brought up as a counter-example is not, in fact, a counter example.

Oh, look, someone is strawmanning now.

Your sentiment is rather arbitrary, you care -- I don't. That's just how it is.

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

Or that your accusations were baseless and based on things you made up - because you literally didn't care enough to check before you threw out accusations.

k

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

Not allowing other players to have a fair chance to fight back is ok, because killing the enemy is "literally, literally, literally" the game - a fair, balanced contest isn't implied at all!

Because taking advantage of the basic limitations of assaults, and players, is fair. Ok.

See, your judgement of "fair", is ultimately just your opinion, that you deluded yourself into thinking that it is objectively so. You just can't seem to grasp that.

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

The point of a Streak build isn't simply to kill Lights; it's to kill Lights in such a way that the victim can't fight back.

That is like when you use a Gauss Rifle to pick off the SPL boat by way of outranging it that it cannot have any hope of actually bringing it's weapon to bear. That's how counter works.

INB4: "Just get closer" -- well, just get far away from the streakboats and seek protection to your teammates. See how easy that is to throw that?

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

You can't say "Streaks should be buffed" and then dismiss balance objections with "that's just the game."

Well, I don't know what to tell you, same thing goes for lights. So as I have been pointing it out, you have what you want, I have mine.

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

You pointed out the staggeringly unfair matchups possible in the two worst maps in the game - one of which was decommissioned because of its flaws (PH had no blocking cover for LRMs) - as a good example of how a totally unfair matchup between Streaks and Lights is perfectly fine! It's like saying "Of course he mugged you, but that's just city life. People get mugged in subways and parks, too! There's no need for better street lighting where you live - asking for that is just arbitrary special pleading!"

But see, you still miss the point. It's only what YOU find fun -- **** LRMs amirite? Also **** assaults.

It's easy to just point out Polar being "decommissioned, therefore there must have been attempts for a fairer gameplay", but that's not really the case. It's a larger and difficult general anti-homing sentiment that started long ago, IIRC when they tightened the lock-on spread.

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

You're deliberately engaging in straw man sophistry - you know it's sophistry because I've told you multiple times that I don't support Streaks being a certain way because of some arcane interpretation of tabletop rules.

You wanna appropriate my handle as well? Spare me lol.

Don't bring TT into this if you don't want to be held up on the standard.

The irony is that, the good lights, like urbies, essentially fight like mediums.

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

But for some irrational reason it makes you feel stronger in the argument to continue to insist - at this point it's just staggering dishonesty.

I don't care of your opinion about it.

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

If you have to change the facts to shore up your position, you should change what you think instead - rather than just insisting that it's all irrelevant, and you're right because you said so.

k

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

The one way in which you've become increasingly honest in your responses is the recurring phrase: "I don't care." Because you don't care - about game balance, what your opponents actually have said, the mechanics of the game... Essentially, you don't care about anything that contradicts your pet opinion - and that's wrong.

Oh, look at that, projection.

No, I care about balance in a sense of what would be fun and fair for both parties. But see the problem there is what you want is YOUR balance, it's what fun for you -- and that is rather subjective, and no amount of excuses will prove otherwise so long as you hold such.

So if you don't care that it's not fun for the assaults getting killed by a swarm of lights -- why should I care about yours? (I don't)

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 02:52 PM, said:

It's dishonest, and unprofitable even for getting what you want - because if you're willing to make up facts, misrepresent other people's arguments, and dismiss their objections with "I don't care," no reasonable person will be swayed by your griping. You have succeeded only in embarrassing yourself and damaging (if only by association) the ethos of everyone who argues for your cause.

k

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 June 2024 - 08:36 PM.

[Void Angel]

Irony is accusing someone of "projection" as a prelude to engaging in it yourself. The entire argument from my end has been that Streaks which overpower Lights are not fun and fair for both sides. Your response to that has been some variant of whataboutism, followed by increasingly dismissive and rude responses that consist of "k," and "I don't care."

When someone tells you something like:

Void Angel, on 20 June 2024 - 11:47 PM, said:

You haven't understood my stance on tabletop, so let me explain it again - I've had this discussion a lot over the years. Tabletop isn't a sourcebook for this game, but it very much does contain a lot of the game's flavor. Streaks, Battlemechs, the Sternsnacht heavy pistol... they're not just in-game items from Battletech and Mechwarrior. They're elements of the in-game universe, and, like removing Lights, not having them would feel weird. So tabletop Battletech (and Mechwarrior for that matter) isn't a technical reference for how Streak mechanics, or weapon damage, or etc. "should" be in MWO - but it's a great resource to inform the game world. That's why PGI included all the weapons when the game was first made, and why Streaks were included. When I tell people to put the rulebook for the other game down, I'm pointing out that 1984 Battletech isn't a straightjacket for MWO balance (or more to the point, a club to beat people with in an argument.)

and your response is to just insist that because someone mentioned tabletop, they must be arguing for game mechanics based on "the rules" is simply absurd - and startlingly dishonest.

The facts of balance do not change because you want something precluded by them. The arguments of others do not change because you want an argument you can win.

[The6thMessenger]

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 09:26 PM, said:

Irony is accusing someone of "projection" as a prelude to engaging in it yourself.

k

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 09:26 PM, said:

The entire argument from my end has been that Streaks which overpower Lights are not fun and fair for both sides.

Sentiment may be, but your focus on merely lights argue otherwise.

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 09:26 PM, said:

Your response to that has been some variant of whataboutism, followed by increasingly dismissive and rude responses that consist of "k," and "I don't care."

There's no really appropriate response to such unhinged takes. So:

k

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 09:26 PM, said:

and your response is to just insist that because someone mentioned tabletop, they must be arguing for game mechanics based on "the rules" is simply absurd - and startlingly dishonest.

Oh look, you miss another point. Remember that such started, because you pointed out "flavor", to which Streaks and Lights are a staple of, as in they exist because TT -- when it's supposed to be irrelevant. Almost like, you just argue such when it's convenient.

MWO are so, adapted from TT, because of the nature of the game, to which we can some liberty in things for the sake of playability. Maybe Streaks and Lights doesn't fit in there? Hell, again, best lights like Urbies are essentially medium -- as in maybe if Fleas and Locusts are bigger and more armored?

But nah man, TT. Lets have 20 ton glass cannons, and whine so hard about it being fragile, we nerf everything else.

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 09:26 PM, said:

The facts of balance do not change because you want something precluded by them.

Something you should tell yourself, but too deluded to do so.

Void Angel, on 21 June 2024 - 09:26 PM, said:

The arguments of others do not change because you want an argument you can win.

k

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 June 2024 - 10:13 PM.

[John Ardenne]

are you guys being paid to do this in every thread to make it look like the community is active?

[D V Devnull]

Two people to reply to... Now for remembering how to use those Horizontal Rules all over again...

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Void Angel, on 19 June 2024 - 08:37 AM, said:

Heck, I dunno - but there's a public Discord where you can go ask them.

Go back and re-read my post which you made the reply to. Discord access is beyond my reach, and for an entire series of reasons... The first of which is that the computer I use simply will NEVER handle it. Remember to NEVER shove Discord at someone who is unable to use it in the first place. It really makes the rest of your posting through this thread up to now fall apart rather heavily.

EDIT :: Something worth the note... Those people from The Cauldron used to metaphorically climb out of the pot and come discuss things on these MWO Forums when there were concerns. It does NOT reflect well upon their group to be hiding on Discord when there are valid questions which either only they or PGI's MWO Staff can even touch properly discussing and answering.


Also... this is more aimed at all who are complaining about Clan Streaks and not merely you... Why the hell is nobody talking about a simplistic very minor bump in damage+heat+cooldown on those danged Clan Streaks that I can presume everyone is arguing over anyway? It can't be that hard to just blip them all up by 0.05 and call it a day for keeping stuff in check! After all, one buff plus two nerfs should equal forcing Clan Streak Pilots to watch it lest they overheat themselves or fail to do damage in a proper manner which promptly gets them wrecked!

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John Ardenne, on 21 June 2024 - 11:32 PM, said:

are you guys being paid to do this in every thread to make it look like the community is active?

Nobody is being paid to generate activity in this manner. There are people in the MWO Community who can get quite passionate about things. You may even find your own niche in good time!

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...and now, everyone, pardon me. I still have to go mourn the loss in use which my So8 VPR-B has endured, such that June 2024 made it a dust-collecting shelf princess.


~D. V. "I will NOT use the 'Queen' phrase at this time on such a small Mech..." Devnull



[Edit by the post's author for a missed thought of critical value...]

Edited by D V Devnull, 22 June 2024 - 07:18 AM.

[Void Angel]

D V Devnull, on 22 June 2024 - 07:08 AM, said:

Two people to reply to... Now for remembering how to use those Horizontal Rules all over again...

Go back and re-read my post which you made the reply to. Discord access is beyond my reach, and for an entire series of reasons... The first of which is that the computer I use simply will NEVER handle it. Remember to NEVER shove Discord at someone who is unable to use it in the first place. It really makes the rest of your posting through this thread up to now fall apart rather heavily.

Sorry, I missed that bit - I'd thought it was somebody else that couldn't get on Discord, so my brain spaced it. But... if you can play MWO, and get on the forums, you should be able to use Disc... what's the issue?

---

In any case, missing one detail in your post because I was distracted doesn't invalidate my reasoning about Streak balance - my claims about that stand on their merits, not on whether or not I was too hasty reading through your post. For Streaks, you've still got the issue that my entire argument with chuckles down there is about: it's extremely hard to buff Streaks without either relegating them to a niche role (which is where they are,) or making them OP damage farming tools that zone Lights out of the game. They're also a newbie hammer with an extremely low skill floor for people who complain about Lights. We're not even talking just about Clan Streaks (that was KursedVixe Heat Skink's hobby horse.) The guy wants all Streaks buffed, specifically to the point where Lights can be hunted down with impunity again. Speaking of...

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The6thMessenger, on 21 June 2024 - 10:06 PM, said:

Oh look, you miss another point. Remember that such started, because you pointed out "flavor", to which Streaks and Lights are a staple of, as in they exist because TT -- when it's supposed to be irrelevant. Almost like, you just argue such when it's convenient.

Actually, our conversation began here, where you started to advocate buffing streaks. The first time I mentioned the tabletop ruleset was here, where I was answering your question about why streaks "home in on limbs." That was the same post where you admitted that you hate Lights having any reasonable combat power, too. I also pointed out - again in response to your posts - that the reason we have certain things, like the Streaks you adore and the Lights you despise, is because they are a part of the game universe and not including them would be odd. You acknowledged this by admitting that Streaks exist in the game world, and decried their current state as "utter uselessness;: you also denigrated having Lights in the game as "fundamentally stupid," because they should "run objectives" and not be able to fight in what you yourself describe as primarily a combat game. "Almost like, you just argue such when it's convenient."
In no place have I ever said that tabletop rules dictate proper game mechanics - in this thread or any other. You said that you wanted to know why they were "limb-homing," and I told you. But I've been very clear that Streaks need a rework, from early on in your stream of baseless attacks and trolling. Your inability to fight Light 'mechs isn't a good reason to hand out newbie hammers so you don't have to learn to play; your dishonesty in argument is not a good reason to listen to you.

Edited by Void Angel, 22 June 2024 - 05:41 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Void Angel, on 22 June 2024 - 05:13 PM, said:

The first time I mentioned the tabletop ruleset was here, where I was answering your question about why streaks "home in on limbs." That was the same post where you admitted that you hate Lights having any reasonable combat power, too.

"Hate", lol no.

I specified "stupid", because it was illogical.

Void Angel, on 22 June 2024 - 05:13 PM, said:

I also pointed out - again in response to your posts - that the reason we have certain things, like the Streaks you adore and the Lights you despise, is because they are a part of the game universe and not including them would be odd.

And I am telling you, that based on the necessity of a functioning game -- it wouldn't have been as the game had been operating for a long time, and to insist to be so is hypocritical.

Void Angel, on 22 June 2024 - 05:13 PM, said:

You acknowledged this by admitting that Streaks exist in the game world, and decried their current state as "utter uselessness;:

Yes. And?

Void Angel, on 22 June 2024 - 05:13 PM, said:

you also denigrated having Lights in the game as "fundamentally stupid," because they should "run objectives" and not be able to fight in what you yourself describe as primarily a combat game.

Oh look at that. You KNOW that I specified a logical position, yet insist "hate". Almost like you read only in the way you want, than instead what I mean.

Like for example, "not be able to fight" as if my sentiment -- is not on the state that they prescriptively should not -- but in the fact that they could not, at least not without assistance.

Void Angel, on 22 June 2024 - 05:13 PM, said:

"Almost like, you just argue such when it's convenient."
In no place have I ever said that tabletop rules dictate proper game mechanics - in this thread or any other.

You still don't get it do you? It's not just game mechanics, it's the necessity to put something from the TT for the sake of TT -- mechanics be damned.

Consistency seems to be difficult for you. Might want to work on that.

Void Angel, on 22 June 2024 - 05:13 PM, said:

You said that you wanted to know why they were "limb-homing," and I told you.

I know full well how they are. And my sentiment was THEY SHOULDN'T BE.

See, you also don't understand that part. Reading comprehension could use some work as well. You know how Rhetorical Question works? (That's also a rhetorical question, because the answer is obviously you don't.)

Void Angel, on 22 June 2024 - 05:13 PM, said:

But I've been very clear that Streaks need a rework, from early on in your stream of baseless attacks and trolling.

See, you also don't get that. I haven't been hounding you on the position that you prefer streaks being weak, or for lights to be able to compete. I had been hounding you for the defensiveness for lights -- for them to have every excuse valid, but not to assaults.

Void Angel, on 22 June 2024 - 05:13 PM, said:

Your inability to fight Light 'mechs isn't a good reason to hand out newbie hammers so you don't have to learn to play; your dishonesty in argument is not a good reason to listen to you.

The6thMessenger, on 21 June 2024 - 10:06 PM, said:

There's no really appropriate response to such unhinged takes. So:

k

Edited by The6thMessenger, 22 June 2024 - 05:42 PM.

[Void Angel]

If you have to chop up a claim into bits and take the parts out of context to "refute" someone, you didn't actually answer the points - your unwillingness to do so is far more telling than your disingenuous responses could ever be.

You may have thought your profanity-laden complaint about Streak functionality was "rhetorical," but it really wasn't. A rhetorical question has an obvious answer, or proves a point by the issues it brings up - whining about "limb-homing" doesn't cut the mustard - pretending that a question is "rhetorical" when you want to pretend someone else is stupid just doesn't cut the mustard.

You've now reduced yourself to arguing that no, no you're the smart guy in the room, and your opponent just "doesn't get it." But my arguments have been well-reasoned, and you haven't shown them to be incorrect. Instead, you've misrepresented my claims almost from the start, even when I drag you back to the relevant quotes and rub your nose in them like a naughty puppy. Your hand-waving and name-calling hasn't actually made my posts go away - they're right there through the last two pages, if anyone cares to look.

I no longer care. Your responses make it clear that you just don't like having to fight Lights with your larger 'mechs, and want a newbie hammer like you used to have so you didn't have to learn to deal with them. It's an odd hill to die on, since you haven't shown up on Jarl's for eight months. You're holding forth with hostility and hauteur on a game you don't play right now! Spare me. Your speaking privileges are revoked - your dishonesty offends me and makes actual discourse impossible. My personal experience of the universe just got smarter.

Edited by Void Angel, 22 June 2024 - 05:58 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Void Angel, on 22 June 2024 - 05:57 PM, said:

If you have to chop up a claim into bits and take the parts out of context to "refute" someone, you didn't actually answer the points - your unwillingness to do so is far more telling than your disingenuous responses could ever be.

k

Void Angel, on 22 June 2024 - 05:57 PM, said:

You may have thought your profanity-laden complaint about Streak functionality was "rhetorical," but it really wasn't. A rhetorical question has an obvious answer, or proves a point by the issues it brings up - whining about "limb-homing" doesn't cut the mustard - pretending that a question is "rhetorical" when you want to pretend someone else is stupid just doesn't cut the mustard.

You mean like the limb-homing, unlike generic missile-spreads results into streaks being too effective going down the weight-class to the point it becomes a light-counter, isn't an issue? (it is BTW)

So like I said. Reading Comprehension needs work.

Void Angel, on 22 June 2024 - 05:57 PM, said:

You've now reduced yourself to arguing that no, no you're the smart guy in the room, and your opponent just "doesn't get it."


But my arguments have been well-reasoned, and you haven't shown them to be incorrect.

Nothing says like "I win" by declaring it yourself.

Void Angel, on 22 June 2024 - 05:57 PM, said:

Instead, you've misrepresented my claims almost from the start, even when I drag you back to the relevant quotes and rub your nose in them like a naughty puppy. Your hand-waving and name-calling hasn't actually made my posts go away - they're right there through the last two pages, if anyone cares to look.

Damn DIO, you really like to monologue... and project...

ps: you haven't. Also this is actually the first time I name-called you, I was just watching JoJo lately...

You know about that "post-cutting" that you so despise, thinking it takes things out of context? That's how to quote, and why it is done is to answer points specifically without being confusing to read. And that lil-arrow on the upper left, it's a hyperlink to the response directly so it's properly cited, so people can indeed follow the context.

So nah man, aside from Reading Comprehension, Argumentation Skill needs work.

Void Angel, on 22 June 2024 - 05:57 PM, said:

I no longer care. Your responses make it clear that you just don't like having to fight Lights with your larger 'mechs, and want a newbie hammer like you used to have so you didn't have to learn to deal with them. It's an odd hill to die on, since you haven't shown up on Jarl's for eight months. You're holding forth with hostility and hauteur on a game you don't play right now! Spare me. Your speaking privileges are revoked - your dishonesty offends me and makes actual discourse impossible. My personal experience of the universe just got smarter.

k

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 June 2024 - 12:40 AM.