16 replies to this topic

[Jon Gotham]

Just got out of a faction play game where I faced the FA-O premade for third time.
Our team all pugs, started complaining almost immediately about "premades."
One guy tried to call, I even tried to call. We both kept getting ignored, team mates started ejecting and alphaing themselves to death.
When I dared to make the comment along the lines of "You complain about teamwork and premades, without ever trying the remedy which is teamwork and comms..."
The nasty comments came out, I struggle to fathom how people can displace accountability so easily.
"Imagine being so mad at the game"
Not mad at the game-nor the premade, your attitude sir. Giving up, not trying not speaking.Whining about people that make the effort to team up or even...speak.
"It's just a game, the world will keep on turning"
I struggle to fathom, why people simply do not care about time or effort. Your time is precious..or it should be to you. You should care even a little wether you play well or win...

I don't understand how the mwo community has arrived where it has. On the one end you have smug elitists and the other ..participation nation?

TL:DR Why do so many in community complain about teamwork, but refuse to do it?

[Gasboy]

Jon Gotham, on 27 June 2024 - 05:52 PM, said:

TL:DR Why do so many in community complain about teamwork, but refuse to do it?

Sadly, it's because it's not two teams fighting each other, it's 24 random individuals thrown together and expected to behave like a team Only people who have actually been on a team in some organized thing really know how teamwork works. And many people are simply there to blow off steam, and faff around, they don't really care about win or lose, they just wanna shoot things and die gloriously in explosions.

[martian]

Jon Gotham, on 27 June 2024 - 05:52 PM, said:

Just got out of a faction play game where I faced the FA-O premade for third time.
Our team all pugs, started complaining almost immediately about "premades."
One guy tried to call, I even tried to call. We both kept getting ignored, team mates started ejecting and alphaing themselves to death.
When I dared to make the comment along the lines of "You complain about teamwork and premades, without ever trying the remedy which is teamwork and comms..."
The nasty comments came out, I struggle to fathom how people can displace accountability so easily.
"Imagine being so mad at the game"
Not mad at the game-nor the premade, your attitude sir. Giving up, not trying not speaking.Whining about people that make the effort to team up or even...speak.
"It's just a game, the world will keep on turning"
I struggle to fathom, why people simply do not care about time or effort. Your time is precious..or it should be to you. You should care even a little wether you play well or win...

I don't understand how the mwo community has arrived where it has. On the one end you have smug elitists and the other ..participation nation?

TL:DR Why do so many in community complain about teamwork, but refuse to do it?

The explanation is very simple: Casual solo players are the main part of the MWO playerbase. Also, casual solo players do not like to be farmed by premades. All MWO premade-based game modes such as the Faction Play or the Group queue have died and thus serve as the best proof of it. Before Russ Bullock placed premades in the Solo Queue, the Solo Queue was the only part of MWO that still had some life in it.

Unfortunately, clueless Russ Bullock, Bryan Ekman, Paul Inouye and other PGI staff have failed to understand this simple thing.

Why I am telling you that? Because this is the cause why MWO is only a shadow of the game it could have been. For almost entire MWO existence PGI has preferred premades and that lead to the only possible result: The playerbase has evaporated.

And now back to the Faction Play: Casual solos ejecting because they do not like being farmed in the Faction Play is nothing new. Almost ten years ago, when PGI unveiled the Faction Play (it was called the Community Warfare then), casual solos found the hard way that their only role in the Faction Play is to be farmed by the premades. They also ejected in the same situation ...

Russ Bullock had two choices:

1. Modify the Faction Play game mode, so that casual solos would be willing to play it or ....

2. Do something else.

Russ Bullock went with the option "2."

Do you wish to know what Russ Bullock did? I can tell you ...

Approximately a month later PGI added (or changed, if you wish) one point in the rules. Specifically, this one: "Disliking a map or game mode or attempting to preserve a player statistic such as Kill/Death Ratio are not acceptable excuses for non-participation."

In plain English, it meant "You filthy casuals, do not dare to eject when you see the same premade farming you for the fifth time in a row. Get farmed 10:48 or else!!!! The Community Warfare is staying "as is" and we are not going to change it!!!"

And so those casual solos realized that the Faction Play was not going to change and that if they do not want to be farmed by 8-, 10- or 12-man premades in the Faction Play, then the only acceptable strategy is not to play the Faction Play.

As I always say, "voting with your feet" or "voting with your wallet" is the only meaningful form of protest. And so those casual solos did exactly that when it came to the Faction Play, this supposed "endgame content" or "intended MWO primary game mode".

Some solo casuals have stayed in the Solo queue - they did not know that Russ Bullock would put premades there too to let them farm them here too. Other casual solos have left MWO altogether, because there is only certain amount of games that you can play in the Solo queue before you get terminally bored with running towards the same rock and attacking the enemy hiding in the same spot.

Game without players. This is what you get when you ignore what your playerbase wants and push what "you" want ... Is that clear, my dear Russ Bullock?

ggclose Russ

LOL

[Duke Falcon]

Jon Gotham, on 27 June 2024 - 05:52 PM, said:

TL:DR Why do so many in community complain about teamwork, but refuse to do it?

Because we are all humans. That is our natural behaviour...

[VeeOt Dragon]

Martian pretty much got it in one.

when there is zero chance of victory no matter how hard you try then why bother trying. yeah some shot calling and coordination can help but its still gonna likely be a stomp. its the main reason that Faction is nearly dead. also that remember with FP the matches last longer so the not fun matches drag on

QP- wait times are short and matches are shorter than FP so if you get a bad one its over quickly enough. you can also quit match after you die and just go on to the next one as long as you have 2 mechs

FP- wait times take forever (especially as a solo since the MM prioritizes large per-made groups) and the matches take longer so a bad match seemingly takes forever to get through. with the drop deck even if you quit match after you lose your last mech you aren't getting another FP match anytime soon as you have to wait for that match to be done to get your mechs back unless you have 8+ mechs of the same faction that can fill a drop deck's tonnage.

it also wasn't uncommon back when i actually played the mode (many years ago) for all of the big 12-man pre-made units to all be on the same faction as well. oh they would claim that they wanted a challenge but the second they went up against another 12-man of any skill they would instantly switch sides so they were on that side. that right there shows the truth, that they just wanted to farm pug groups and nothing more.

i have dropped into FP a time or two lately for the FP events and i think out of the last 2 i only ran into a 12 man once. (i did my best then just went back to QP for the day and finished the event the next day. its just not worth the headaches and aggravation). so that can be seen as a plus to those events or rather the time of day that i played.

then again i am a casual player who just plays for fun and when i am in the mood. i don't care about META, leaderboards, or any of that arbitrary garbage. just want to drop fight some stompy battles and have fun (hell i am happy if i get a 50/50 win loss rate for the day its more the quality of the match not the victory that matters to me)

also remember that PGI wanted MWO to be the next big E-Sports game, something that never happened and will never happen. MWO is to niche of a game for that as hard as they try. (on a side note i never understood the whole professional E-Sports thing. then again i am older and remember when the NES was the top of the line for electronic gaming (even had an Atari 2600 when i was but a wee little hatchling). to me gaming has always just been for fun and nothing else.)

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 03 July 2024 - 06:15 AM.

[pattonesque]

Jon Gotham, on 27 June 2024 - 05:52 PM, said:

TL:DR Why do so many in community complain about teamwork, but refuse to do it?

Broadly it's this:

Many people who play this game believe themselves to be tactical geniuses who, by dint of having played the tabletop game, possess secret knowledge of how to win at stompy robots

These people then go up against people who know how to aim or premade groups that have the barest hint of coordination and they lose quite badly. Their brilliant tactics and strategies (which are usually just a wide, useless flank) fail them and they end the match with double digit damage.

Some of these folks take a step back and reevaluate their own play and get better. Most of them, unfortunately, cannot let go of their self-image as the second coming of Napoleon. What they do instead is search for external reasons for their loss. If only they weren't placed against people who use dishonorable tactics like "firing at a single component" or "twisting away damage". If only the game wasn't run by monsters who favor the specific weapons system, mech, or playstyle that most recently killed them. If only toxic sweaty competitive players (generally just a bunch of dudes who are shooting the breeze while shooting robots) didn't group up together to ruin their fun. Then their genius could finally be recognized.

Eventually, these folks can't quite keep up the cognitive dissonance. They've tried everything -- or, well, everything they're willing to try -- and they keep losing. The only thing they can do to maintain their self-image is to refuse to play.

And so you see people ejecting or suiciding or audibly giving up in comms the instant a match starts. The weird thing is, even if they didn't change anything about their playstyle at all, they'd legitimately win some of these matches just by playing the game and giving a reasonable effort. But that kind of winning isn't what they want to do. They seek a kind of moral victory.

Edited by pattonesque, 06 July 2024 - 06:25 PM.

[Gasboy]

pattonesque, on 03 July 2024 - 06:25 AM, said:

Broadly it's this:

Many people who play this game believe themselves to be tactical geniuses who, by dint of having played the tabletop game, possess secret knowledge of how to win at stompy robots

These people then go up against people who know how to aim or premade groups that have the barest hint of coordination and they lose quite badly. Their brilliant tactics and strategies (which are usually just a wide, useless flank) fail them and they end the match with double digit damage.

You know, looking at it this way, it makes sense. People get stuck in the thinking that allows them to win in the tabletop game. The slower pace and bird's eyeview gives you a different, and often better, perspective. But you have to imagine that bird's eyeview in MWO, in real-time, from a first person perspective. And I think some folks can't grok that.

Also, regarding your mention of Napoleon. I play tabletop BT and occasionally cross paths with a guy named Napoleon. He's good, and a tough/fun challenge to play against, he knows his stuff. I think he also plays MWO. I'll have to check. A tangent, perhaps, but amusing.

[feeWAIVER]

It's not that deep.
People don't want to waste 30 minutes being farmed by a tier 1 nut cupping team against tier 4 Skittles.
It isn't funny, and it isn't fun.

It's a shame. FP has always been the better game mode but it's ruined by nut cups.
If they allowed 12 mans to stack up for quick play, but made FP solo drop, you'd see the critical mass migrate to FP instantly.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

While solos are pretty prominent, the larger the solo queue, the more unhealthy your population is. You know what keeps people playing a game for longer? Friends. Being unable to play a game together is generally a problematic venture so honestly PGI is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Do you pretty much make any sort of non-private mode solo only and risk alienating those who might play longer or potentially alienate those who refuse to get in groups?

FP being a garbage mode on top of having no SBMM and no group size limits certainly doesn't help matters either (part of the "end-game" facet of FP that exists for some god awful reason). That said not all groups are equal, there are some groups that are in fact worse than 4-12 randos. Any time I see a 4 man of Crael or some random slow brawl mech in QP I generally cringe and expect to have to carry harder because that 4 man is just gonna sandbag the team most of the time.

TL;DR faction play probably needs group size limits if they are going to try and incentivize it being played again.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 03 July 2024 - 10:55 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

we used to have Group Que for those that wanted to group up for QP style matches. it died because it wasn't being used. that tells you something right there.

as far as friends playing together i got no problem with that just limit the group size and you are good. (i don't know anyone with enough real friends that all play the game to put together a 12 person group. (oh i used to Drop with SnugglesTime back in the day but i wouldn't really consider any of them friends.). hell if you got that many "friends" you might as well do a private lobby where you can set all the perimeters just the way you like. thats what Snugglestime did mostly back in the day, we never did FP (or if we did i don't remember, that was a long time ago) and only rarely did goofy GQ drops (the all stock Trebs one was hilarious as we beat another 12 man unit, the massive salt the cascaded from the chat that day was glorious.). though sometimes we would do synchronized drops in QP.

as always its not the groups of "friends" wanting to play together that ruins things but the overly competitive try hards that gauge the size of their digital johnson by what arbitrary numbers they have on a site or board that 90% of the player base doesn't even know exists or the numbers of "noobs" they can stomp.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 03 July 2024 - 04:39 PM.

[Ignatius Audene]

Another statement, that just proves there are too many special snowflakes in mwo. U don't need to be real world buddy's to have fun playing together. I bet all these big units in wow etc. Are all real buddy's... Multiplayer games are about building a community.

And that u try not too suck, has nothing to do with stats or tryhard. If u go to an competition, its a sign of respect for your team and the red team, that u do your very best.

If U want to troll there is GTA5

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 04 July 2024 - 11:45 AM.

[LordNothing]

ive pugged the mode for years and never had any problem getting wins. yes, you will encounter teams that actually give a ****. but sometimes you find if you actually put in some effort you find out they dont give as much a **** as you think they do. many of these teams depend on pugs to get so many victories in the first place, and when the pugs actually get their **** together, they become an actual threat. hell forbid they encounter another actual team. you just have to give it your best shot, and if it falls short, try to learn something. you go in with a defeatist mindset you will lose every time. the second you have a bad first drop and decide "meh, im just gonna farm damage", that's where you lost.

this kind of thing is also contagious. it just takes a couple guys who dont have their hearts in the battle and that starts the snowball rolling before you even exchange fire with the enemy. then the guys who were on the fence are now in the defeatist's camp. when you need numbers you are half a team. ive had teams actively shoot people who try to open the gates on attack, which you have to do to win. not only choosing not to take a step toward victory but punishing anyone that does. the military used to make liberal use of firing squads to deal with this kind of behavior.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 July 2024 - 09:57 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

VeeOt Dragon, on 03 July 2024 - 04:38 PM, said:

we used to have Group Que for those that wanted to group up for QP style matches. it died because it wasn't being used. that tells you something right there.

I wasn't intending to reply to this thread merely observe, but the tone of this post and the way "friends" was used as a slur got under my skin.
The issue with group queue was, it never addressed why people group on a casual basis. me and one other guy used to during those days and you'd run into the serious players, top tier 1 guys meta'd out of their eyeballs. It wasn't fun.
A few years ago when FP was more popular, I used to join a Night's Scorn premade quite often-I'd bring my a-game (such as it is>.>) and I'd try-HARD to perform. Why? Because it was competitive. Somebody was taking their time and effort to try and lead me, basic respect towards them.
If I chose to try tourny play I'd do the same.
Dropping in QP though that isn't that type of play and running into groups like that because some solos don't want to teamwork AT ALL and just do whatever their self aggrandisement dictates is simply not on.
Groups in QP generally are just a collection of friends (not the missing " marks) trying to play together and have a chill time. That ups the ante from the "I don't care" brigade just that little bit. Then their tears flow. That's not right folks.
I have spoken to countless players who just say "it's just a game man, I don't care" they spend a few mins queuing, then 2 mins waiting then 5-10 mins "playing" and have zero to little investment in the time they just spent? That's insanity.
As for you insinuating "friends" are not real friends, I beg to differ. I have multiple irl friends I met online.
My fiance I met playing WoW.
Some of the friends i made online have been instrumental in my survival during my battle with mental health.
This pervasive attitude, a couple of posters have already laid bare on this thread worries me as to the state of the human condition.

Edited by Jon Gotham, 04 July 2024 - 06:22 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Jon Gotham, on 04 July 2024 - 06:21 PM, said:

As for you insinuating "friends" are not real friends, I beg to differ. I have multiple irl friends I met online.
My fiance I met playing WoW.
Some of the friends i made online have been instrumental in my survival during my battle with mental health.
This pervasive attitude, a couple of posters have already laid bare on this thread worries me as to the state of the human condition.

This is why WoW was so big, friends were drawing in other friends and stayed playing for the exact same reason even well beyond the time they would've stopped. Same is true for Destiny and Destiny 2. Drawing people with friends and ensuring that there is an easy way to get grouped up is pretty essential especially for games about team play.

[VeeOt Dragon]

honestly reading back over my post it came off a little more aggressive and even hateful than i meant it to. hell i got a handful of online friends (as close to friends as such interactions can be) none of them play MWO. it all depends on what one considers the threshold of being considered a friend and that is different for each person.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 05 July 2024 - 02:40 PM.

[Bulletsponge0]

Jon Gotham, on 04 July 2024 - 06:21 PM, said:

I wasn't intending to reply to this thread merely observe, but the tone of this post and the way "friends" was used as a slur got under my skin.
The issue with group queue was, it never addressed why people group on a casual basis. me and one other guy used to during those days and you'd run into the serious players, top tier 1 guys meta'd out of their eyeballs. It wasn't fun.
A few years ago when FP was more popular, I used to join a Night's Scorn premade quite often-I'd bring my a-game (such as it is>.>) and I'd try-HARD to perform. Why? Because it was competitive. Somebody was taking their time and effort to try and lead me, basic respect towards them.
If I chose to try tourny play I'd do the same.
Dropping in QP though that isn't that type of play and running into groups like that because some solos don't want to teamwork AT ALL and just do whatever their self aggrandisement dictates is simply not on.
Groups in QP generally are just a collection of friends (not the missing " marks) trying to play together and have a chill time. That ups the ante from the "I don't care" brigade just that little bit. Then their tears flow. That's not right folks.
I have spoken to countless players who just say "it's just a game man, I don't care" they spend a few mins queuing, then 2 mins waiting then 5-10 mins "playing" and have zero to little investment in the time they just spent? That's insanity.
As for you insinuating "friends" are not real friends, I beg to differ. I have multiple irl friends I met online.
My fiance I met playing WoW.
Some of the friends i made online have been instrumental in my survival during my battle with mental health.
This pervasive attitude, a couple of posters have already laid bare on this thread worries me as to the state of the human condition.

what worries me about the state of the human condition is that you are still playing faction warfare

and congrats on the fiancée

[Gasboy]

Bulletsponge0, on 05 July 2024 - 07:19 PM, said:

what worries me about the state of the human condition is that you are still playing faction warfare

and congrats on the fiancée

There is an event going on after all.

Did two drops with a few comp mates, and it was like old times. Nostalgia was fairly thick. Both times, most/all of my team cooperated and worked together. Won both matches. Feels good man.