63 replies to this topic

[VeeOt Dragon]

i have been playing the game for years (not so much these days and i did take like a two year break from it some time ago) but in all the time i have been playing MWO i only gotten 2 headshots or something like that. so when a player is averaging more than one a match not including shut down or AFK mechs i get suspicious. the actual hit boxes for the headshot are not the size of the cockpit windows that you can see but much smaller. i am not saying it isn't possible but it gets mighty sus after a while.

[MayhemMatador]

Okay, bit of update, that has kind of blown my mind.

I watched a couple hours of this guy's headshot videos on youtube, he is on his second guillotine!

There are dozens of headshot videos and tips on youtube!

I downloaded these charts yesterday: https://mwomercs.com...localization-2/

I made a warhammer WHM-4L with 3 large PPC, stealth,

Kept a laptop with the hitbox PDF file open next to me while I played on my desktop, I dropped 10 times, got 2 headshots. Both on an Annihilators the entire window at the top of their long neck is the headbox! I also got killed a lot because I wasn't moving much while waiting for target to turn towards me, but it was worth it.

[Remover of Obstacles]

Maybe it is time to make the target area for all heads smaller.

Doesn't make for a lot of fun for the pilots on the receiving end.

Edited by Remover of Obstacles, 03 October 2024 - 03:22 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Honestly, it's the thing I dislike most about both TT and Mechwarrior, headshots can make for some really unfun scenarios. Even if it is because of skill (or lack of it in the case of the receiving end), headshots can leave a really bad taste in your mouth when you are otherwise completely fresh.

[LordNothing]

training grounds is a good way to drill on getting your accuracy up and engagement time down and test builds for increased lethality against heads. i just kind of wish the mechs would respawn or there would be more mech variety learn how to hs each one proficiently. charts are useful but if you cant identify a mech visually and find the head box you cant drill.

solaris used to be good for this because you didnt have to throw your team under the bus to practice your headshots and the wait times allowed you to iterate fast.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 October 2024 - 05:24 PM.

[Void Angel]

I've achieved headshots on 'mechs with deflection shots and dakkka. When I first came back to the game a couple Christmases ago, I blasted an ERPPC Thunderbolt in his face-hole with the first shot of the match - using my own ERPPC Thunderbolt. The dakka kill was against a Marauder II or Stone Rhino; I was simply tracking his CT and put enough rounds through his cockpit glass to ventilate his face-holes. Then there was the time I punked a guy, who had just been rude to me on the forums, with my Desperado... Heck, I killed at least two Lights with headshots at the start of a match last time I took my Fafnir out for a spin.

On the recieving end, one of the reasons I ditched my XPL Thunderbolt is that people where just staring back at me and putting dual Gauss through the giant horizontal slot of my cockpit hit box. The bottom line is that I don't even try for headshots as much as I ought to, and I still get them. Headshots are uncommon, but doable, and it may be your own behaviors that enable their occurrence.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 October 2024 - 07:00 AM.

[Lanzman]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 03 October 2024 - 04:23 PM, said:

Honestly, it's the thing I dislike most about both TT and Mechwarrior, headshots can make for some really unfun scenarios. Even if it is because of skill (or lack of it in the case of the receiving end), headshots can leave a really bad taste in your mouth when you are otherwise completely fresh.

Oh yeah. I remember a TT game once where I was running an Imp and in the first exchange of fire I got a gauss round right in the head. Got to watch the other guys play it out. Yay.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 03 October 2024 - 04:23 PM, said:

Honestly, it's the thing I dislike most about both TT and Mechwarrior, headshots can make for some really unfun scenarios. Even if it is because of skill (or lack of it in the case of the receiving end), headshots can leave a really bad taste in your mouth when you are otherwise completely fresh.

I agree to an extent Was in a Tourney where an almost fresh Highlander was headshot from across the board. For the non-TT crowd, TT cockpit has 9 armor points and 3 internal structure points for a total of 12 damage required to destroy it. And there are two rolls of the dice for each weapon, first roll is a hit/miss then second roll is for the hit location. The filthy Clanner needed a 10+ to hit with a GR, and he rolled a 10 then a 12 for the cockpit.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 05 October 2024 - 04:20 PM.

[MayhemMatador]

I don't get the 'not fun' notion, you can get focus fired killed in seconds, you can get one shot through the back by a backstab specialist, lots of ways to die in a second or two in the game. When someone invests all the time and energy to earn the skill to get headshots it hardly seems like a fair take to imply that it is without value or a hack, or that it is somehow invalid because you stopped moving enough or shut down giving them the opportunity.


I would suggest the fact that PGI has 3 different headshot achievement levels indicates that it is a valid and aspirational skill to develop.

Also, unlike TT the player has to make the headshot, no random dice involved.

[Void Angel]

Getting focus killed or ambushed can be avoided, and it's directly based on your skill. I just gave you, three posts ago, three examples of accidental headshots - one of them executed on a moving target with rapid-firing autocannons. Is that typical? Nope - but neither did it reflect any aspirational skill on my part. I literally killed four 'mechs with headshots by accident - only one of them was an actual aimed shot. Are headshots something to strive for? Sure! But that's a different proposition than the one on offer.

Citing achievements for the "validity" of headshots being fun is a terrible piece of mismatched logic. No one is arguing that they don't take skill (except in tabletop, where they in fact do not) - they're saying that losing your mostly fresh 'mech to an unpredictable event makes the game less fun for them. And that's a valid concern; Mechwarrior is, at its core, a game of skilled attrition. You could argue that Lights are an exception; but if so they're the one that proves the rule. A Light's maneuvering and positioning still expose it to the fire of an intelligent opponent - no Light pilot you know runs less than full leg armor. In this environment, putting someone's 'mech in the ground for accepting damage isn't a fun experience for them.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Like Void said a lot of headshots outside of shutdown or afk mechs are typically lucky shots. This is one of those counter play things, the key to this game is longer than average individual TTK, headshots can often ruin that. To be clear, no one is saying they can't be replaced with better mechanics as well, for example it could work no different than rear armor (which I also think should have smaller hit boxes like they did in MW4) and go straight to the CT or something like that and still benefit skilled play without necessarily cheapening the experience for those on the receiving end.

[Ken Harkin]

Headshots happen. Short of an actual cheat it is what it is. If you want the amount of headshots you recieve to be near ZERO then do the following.

1. Don't shut down. Seriously, use the override and watch your heat. When I see a shutdown mech I gun for the cockpit assuming I have the weapons to do the job. Gunning the cockpit is a combination of knowing where to shoot and the old Wyatt Earp saying, "take your time in a hurry." You have more time than you think to line it up but less than you want.

2. Keep moving! I cannot say this enough. With all weapons keeping moving is the best way to avoid components getting cored out with intention and especially getting headshot. Hitting a moving, twisting, mech in the head with any type of confidence is EXTREMELY unlikely. When someone complains about being headshot the first question I ask was "were you moving?"

If you have done both of those things you are still on occasion going to recieve that lucky headshot. It happens. Load up another mech and drop again. At least it isn't tabletop where you are done for an hour or more now. To be fair, in tabletop there are very few attacks which will oneshot a cockpit. I have been out of the TT world of BT for some time but pretty much it was only Gauss and AC20 which would pop a cockpit with one shot. One of the benefits of punching in TT was that the chance of hitting the head was 1 in 6 rather than rolling a 12 on 2D6. It was common for my Battlemaster to close to melee range and unleash two punches along with 4ML and a SRM6. Good times!

[Void Angel]

Clan ERPPCs and Thunderbolts, as well; possibly some stuff from the Dark Age or whatnot (after I stopped buying books.)

[MayhemMatador]

Void Angel, on 06 October 2024 - 06:59 PM, said:

Getting focus killed or ambushed can be avoided, and it's directly based on your skill.

And just like headshots sometimes you will get killed, maybe you are off that day, maybe you got sloppy... Or maybe an opponent expressed more skill that day, or perhaps a lance had a better plan, or your teammates failed to back you... Or maybe someone 800 meters away missed with their 2x Gauss and put it into your back or stripped section..

And on and on and on...

My point being when people come to the forums to first claim headshots must be bot-assisted, then near impossible or shady, then when several folks point out that it's entirely possible and point to facts and vids it suddenly becomes "oh its not fun for me", and attempt to invalidate the way someone else who must have worked very hard plays, personally I salute anyone who can one shot me in the head, and try to never stop moving.

In the end this thread really has shown itself to be about the people who can and cannot separate their egos enough to enjoy a game when it doesn't go 'the way its supposed to!!!'

And by the way, I don't ever recall seeing MWO advertised as a game of "skilled attrition" that's just the way you see it, not how its advertised or pitched anywhere.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 06 October 2024 - 08:42 PM, said:

Like Void said a lot of headshots outside of shutdown or afk mechs are typically lucky shots. This is one of those counter play things, the key to this game is longer than average individual TTK, headshots can often ruin that. To be clear, no one is saying they can't be replaced with better mechanics as well, for example it could work no different than rear armor (which I also think should have smaller hit boxes like they did in MW4) and go straight to the CT or something like that and still benefit skilled play without necessarily cheapening the experience for those on the receiving end.

Oh, so lets ruin the game, cheapen the experience for players that work for head and component shots? "Too bad guys, some folks wanted to call you cheaters, the cheesers, then when corrected decided that you are cheapening the game because of their own mistakes... so we are going to eliminate your play style... squeaky wheel and all... Oh? no I don't know why they don't try to learn how to do it either, we are just going to validate their salty feelings and unvalidate your hard earned skills... sorry"

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MayhemMatador, on 08 October 2024 - 01:21 PM, said:

Oh, so lets ruin the game, cheapen the experience for players that work for head and component shots?

I play with some of the best players in the game. Hitting head shots is about luck outside again, just people playing poorly like standing still, shutting down, etc. Some aim does go into it, aiming for the skull of an atlas, aiming for the cockpit area in general of mechs like the Marauder, Whale, Timby, etc, but that's more about crosshair placement than actual aiming for the head. Regardless, whatever you think, if it results in a quicker kill it will still be a good place to place your crosshair, it just won't feel as cheap on the receiving end to be downed and be nearly fresh (referring to my suggestion of removing the quick kill of headshots).

Spare me your "but what about those who get headshots", that's not what counterplay is about. It's about how bad does it feel to be on both ends, and tbh, even getting a headshot accidentally against a fresh opponent doesn't feel that great and I've gotten more than my share. It feels way better to pop a side torso with PPC/Gauss than accidentally get a headshot.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 08 October 2024 - 05:40 PM.

[Void Angel]

Getting killed because I made a mistake or took incidental fire in a fight is absolutely not "just like" getting merked instantly by a headshot while fresh. If it was, we would not be having this conversation.

Similarly, you've not actually made a "point" by citing a side conversation about headshot difficulty that has sprung up from a forum crazy who is on record claiming he was aimbotted by LRMs (a feat which is literally impossible.) Being realistic about how easy headshots are to actually achieve isn't "invalidating" a guy who, in your clip, is literally not helping his team; he is seal-clubbing newbies with his smurf account to farm for headshots, and just... holds fire several times because he's not interested in shooting at anything that's not a "good" headshot target - meaning stationary or peeking straight over a hill. I mean, we can very legitimately criticize him for that, because it's asinine, but saying that headshots aren't as likely as you think they are is just accurate assessment of the game by players who are much more skilled and experienced than you are.

The fact that you just now found the hitbox localization thread and some Youtube clips, and are all agog about this, does not impress me - do not quote the Deep Magic to me, for I was there when it was written.

[foamyesque]

Certain mechs in certain situations can be pretty reliably headshot if you have good aim and the correct weapons, but that's a relatively rare situation between people of equal abilities.

[Void Angel]

Yep. And 'mechs are emphatically not created equal here:

Crusader Head Box.

Thunderbolt Head Box.

Still not that common, but it happened enough that I ditched that Thunderbolt X-Pulse build I was trying.

Edited by Void Angel, 09 October 2024 - 11:43 AM.

[foamyesque]

Void Angel, on 09 October 2024 - 11:41 AM, said:

Yep. And 'mechs are emphatically not created equal here:

Crusader Head Box.

Thunderbolt Head Box.

Still not that common, but it happened enough that I ditched that Thunderbolt X-Pulse build I was trying.

Tbolt has the advantage of the askew placement. The real brutal ones are the pod mechs (Catapult, Timby, Marauder, Mad Cat II, etc) or stuff like the Jagermech, where it's smack dab in the CoM.

The Atlas also gets it a bit because lots of people practice on them and the hitbox is very visible.

[Void Angel]

The Atlas is also hittable from the side. But if people are trying for headshots, that giant Thunderbolt slot is one of the easiest to hit on level ground. I gave up the build when people put rounds through my face-hole while I was actually twisting away from them...

Edited by Void Angel, 09 October 2024 - 02:01 PM.