10 replies to this topic

[Denovis]

I'm newbie here, so most likely I don't understand things and hope you'll explain me where I was wrong.

Personally I don't like lasers, their sound, look and feel. But majority of players make laser boats with giant alpha strike damage and always pick ice maps to not to overheat after 1st shot. And it leads to situations where my balistic or SRM mechs get 1-3 shotted by a single mech at pretty much any distance. For example today I played at another cold map as arctic wolf with 4 SRM6. It takes me at least 20 seconds and 0 misses to kill a medium mech, targeting light ones is a pain because rockets are slow and can't change direction mid fire like lasers, and I just can't deal enough damage to heavies or assaults to destroy anything.

But one heavy laser boat could literally 1 shot my 50 armor right/left torso and 2 shot my 60 armor torso. And enemy team had at least 5 similar mechs. You can't kite because lasers are accurate and work at any range, you can't out tank them because they deal much more damage and hide behind cover to cool down, and you can't out peek them because laser don't have travel speed.

My main problem is that those builds are super specific for cold maps. For example I finally got a hot map and some players immediatly disconnected and others couldn't do anything to me because of constant overheating.

I came from 0 kills and damage to 5 kills just because of different map. It's frustrating. You can a giant array of different mechs and loadouts but majority of players run 1 shot laser builds and in some cases even min max them to work only on cold maps.

Is there any reason to run low heat builds if you can just make max damage max heat builds and stick to cold maps?

[MrMadguy]

One mech usually can't one-shot another. But I experienced matches, where 2-3 players were in group of laser boats (Timber wolfs in most cases) and were focusing specific enemy mech. One-shots can happen in this case.

[chaosshade2638]

That's pretty much just the meta here. It's a min-max thing, either you have a high-alpha mech (laser or SRM boat) or you have a damage over time mech (autocannons or LRMs)

[Denovis]

chaosshade2638, on 12 November 2024 - 06:33 AM, said:

That's pretty much just the meta here. It's a min-max thing, either you have a high-alpha mech (laser or SRM boat) or you have a damage over time mech (autocannons or LRMs)

I just can't enjoy lasers, I don't like how they sound and look, mostly because my eyes hurt because of so many different bright colors which are shot at my face, and I love gritty low tech mechs, walking fridges with lots of dakka, not this pew-pew stuff. And seeing like 80+% of people using laser vomit builds makes me want to close the game. Only enjoyment I get if there are low amount of laser boats or it's a hot map so min maxers overheat every shot. Playing on cold maps as SRM boat sucks.

For example I went to testing grounds and tested 2 builds on centurion. 1st one is SRM boat arctic wolf and 2nd one is laser boat hunchback. It took 7-8 full hit volleys and 30-40 secs to kill with arctic wolf and 2-3 alpha strikes from hunchback without overheating on a hot map.

Lasers have high TTK, require no ammo, have highest accuracy, don't fall victim to balistick shenanigans with game engine, no damage falloff, can be corrected mid firing and have instant travel time. Only drawback is heat, but as I said people take tons of double heatsinks and always pick an arctic map.

And looking at current year I doubt that devs would fix anything. Say, does that balance problem happens in tabletop or MW5 or "battletech" game? Maybe I should buy MW5 or Battletech but I don't like that multiplayer is empty or non existent in those game. Only thing I want from MWO is to get on new more optimized engine and fix balance issues, it would be a perfect game for me. But sadly all we have is unbalanced mess on ancient engine. At least it's completely free and actually not p2w.

[LordNothing]

a lot of the one hits from range i get are shots that land on rear armor. usually players who think they are only fighting on one front. in other words i exploited their lack of situational awareness. there is usually also plenty of time to twist off the damage, but they dont understand that the damage indicator also indicates what direction the damage is coming from. this helps you not only evade damage but also locate the baddie.

Edited by LordNothing, 12 November 2024 - 11:19 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Welcome to MWO Denovis.

Reading your post, a couple of things jump out at me and if I may, I'd like to make a few suggestions. I'm not that good but I've been playing for several years.

First, it sounds like you like short-range weapons like SRMs, short-range builds require patience. The Arctic Wolf is a pretty good SRM bomber but it's still squishy so you have to pick your targets carefully. Try to wait until an enemy mech has open components. Your damage output will be much more efficient that way.

Second, are you engaging enemies 1v1? It can be time consuming to chew through the armour and structure of a fresh mech so perhaps you should try sticking with a larger friendly mech and amplify his/her firepower with your own.

Third, learn to twist away damage. Lasers are hit-scan so your enemy doesn't need to use lead in order to hit you but you can mitigate damage taken by twisting and spreading it around multiple components instead of taking it all in the same spot.

Four, keep moving! Using your arctic Wolf as an example, at 40 tons, it doesn't have all that much more armour that a 35-ton light mech but the ACW is pretty nimble so use that to your advantage. Standing still in a light or most medium mechs is risky unless you have good map knowledge.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Denovis]

CFC Conky, on 12 November 2024 - 01:09 PM, said:

Welcome to MWO Denovis.

Reading your post, a couple of things jump out at me and if I may, I'd like to make a few suggestions. I'm not that good but I've been playing for several years.

First, it sounds like you like short-range weapons like SRMs, short-range builds require patience. The Arctic Wolf is a pretty good SRM bomber but it's still squishy so you have to pick your targets carefully. Try to wait until an enemy mech has open components. Your damage output will be much more efficient that way.

Second, are you engaging enemies 1v1? It can be time consuming to chew through the armour and structure of a fresh mech so perhaps you should try sticking with a larger friendly mech and amplify his/her firepower with your own.

Third, learn to twist away damage. Lasers are hit-scan so your enemy doesn't need to use lead in order to hit you but you can mitigate damage taken by twisting and spreading it around multiple components instead of taking it all in the same spot.

Four, keep moving! Using your arctic Wolf as an example, at 40 tons, it doesn't have all that much more armour that a 35-ton light mech but the ACW is pretty nimble so use that to your advantage. Standing still in a light or most medium mechs is risky unless you have good map knowledge.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Thanks for for tips. I'm already do that twisiting thing to protect my torso, but it's kinda hard to do with an arctic wolf. Also I've instaled flamers to my arctic wolf and respecced from distance to fast movement and cooling, works wonders on laser boats, except when they overdrive and pzzzt me in a cockpit with tons of small lasers.

And yeah, you right on point with that I'm quite inpatient and either do 1v1 against fresh mechs or chase some damaged mech just to get ambushed by 4 assaults. Also I'm pretty bad at kiting something faster than slow shooting balistics. lasers and autocannons are my bane. Also it sucks when center of map is open and flanks are protected by heavy and assault mechs, not much space for medium brawlers.

Plus I stil don't get why 24 SRM rockets deal much less damage than few heavy lasers, probably because of damage spread. Initially i've picked srms because in battletech PC game SRMs dealt huge posture damage, also they're pretty to look at.

Also I've noticed that I get more rewards while dying first on brawler medium mechs, that living the whole match on long range heavy one. I guess you get more point for being close to battle?

[foamyesque]

Denovis, on 12 November 2024 - 11:54 PM, said:

Also I've noticed that I get more rewards while dying first on brawler medium mechs, that living the whole match on long range heavy one. I guess you get more point for being close to battle?

By far the biggest determination for match score and XP is damage done, so you probably are managing to get more damage in in your brawl machines.

[l33tworks]

Welcome to MWO. To fight the laser boats try a few tactics. When they fire don't keep your torso facing the same way and dont stare back at them, keep your aim moving. Easier said than done I know. You have to anticipate their shots. Don't expose at range or more than 300m its where brawlers die. If you stay behind cover/terrain and push them you will find they overheat in a brawl if you have a good and cool brawl setup especially LBs.

[Ignatius Audene]

Damage is not the only stat. The strength of arm are instant fire and forget and massive DMG for the heat / tonnage investment. That allows u too pop over cover (hill poke or side poke, jjs make it easy mode) and shoot out your hole volley in O.1 secs. They then have to react and even if they do the 1sec to duration laser might smear over your mech (twist!).

If u can isolate an laser boat it is simply done. U shoot+ twist. He smears one sec duration over your mech.u Twist in again and his side torso is gone. If not he has hard time keeping up with your speed if u keep close and circle him and and might smear his lasers even harder. Now hr is heat capped and u can farm ez.

[Samara 6J]

Denovis, on 12 November 2024 - 01:05 AM, said:

Personally I don't like lasers, their sound, look and feel. But majority of players make laser boats with giant alpha strike damage and always pick ice maps to not to overheat after 1st shot. And it leads to situations where my balistic or SRM mechs get 1-3 shotted by a single mech at pretty much any distance.

LPL/BL + ERML (or cLPL/cHLL + cERML) are a dominant meta build on EVERY map, not just cold ones.

It's a combination of ease of use (hitscan, one button weapon system, one range profile) and PUG gameplay + map design. Efficient damage trading is everything in PUG play - you want to dump the most damage possible (which lasers are great at because they have high damage/weight ratios) in the shortest period of exposure possible (which incentivizes building into alpha size over DPS).

Denovis, on 12 November 2024 - 01:05 AM, said:

My main problem is that those builds are super specific for cold maps. For example I finally got a hot map and some players immediatly disconnected and others couldn't do anything to me because of constant overheating.

Map temperature doesn't really change those factors - having to cool down for slightly longer isn't as important as dealing more damage than you take. And map temperature impact really isn't all that enormous anyway. Heat sink dissipation is 0.11 - 0.15 depending on type - the coldest environments add the equivalent of 3-5 heatsinks. Outside of Terra Therma, even the hot maps also aren't really that hot - you lose the equivalent of 2-3 heatsinks. Laservomit builds benefit disproportionately from cold maps, but laservomit is still good regardless of temperature.

Heat management problems and subsequent rage quitting on hot maps are likely user error, especially if you're in Tier 5 - most players down there don't override, have incompletely skilled or inefficiently skilled and built mechs, and aren't yet used to how much heat their weapons generate to ride the scale.

Denovis, on 12 November 2024 - 01:05 AM, said:

Is there any reason to run low heat builds if you can just make max damage max heat builds and stick to cold maps?

Yes. Lasers are good, but they have drawbacks - particularly at very long or very short range.

Laservomit is really good because you can dump a bunch of damage without taking much in return. At very long ranges (past 7-800m) exposure time becomes less important because only players with long-ranged weapons can exploit it, and the primary concern becomes sufficiently capitalizing on opportunities to shoot. Thus, many long ranged builds (HAGs, Guass ERLL, or massed AC2/5) are low-heat or have low-heat elements because it lets you more strongly punish out of position enemies and more effectively maintain pressure over large areas of the map.

Alternatively, relatively low heat builds are often used on brawling mechs. Short ranged mechs are more likely to receive or be able to give a push, where somebody walks around the other person's cover and now it's a DPS race to see who kills who first - obviously low DPH lasers don't work very well in this scenario. Brawl builds also tend to use more heat efficient weapons because many of these weapons, such as the AC20, snubs, Artimes SRMS, etc. deal damage all at once and all to the same location. It's more viable to try and shoot out enemy components in a brawl vs mid/long range, because you're not trying to minimize exposure time and because mech components are proportionately larger targets up close. A competent player can spread the damage from lasers (especially longer burn time lasers like the cHLL or BL often used in midrange laservomit) across multiple components by twisting their torso in a way that's much more difficult to do to, like, an AC20, which puts them at a disadvantage up close.

Finally, this weakness of laservomit at close range also makes them tactically/positionally inflexible compared to other steups - particularly autocannon setups. As an example a quad AC10 Sleipnir and a laservomit Stalker 4N are both midrange builds, but the Sleipnir has more ability to fight outside of its optimal engagement zone than the Stalker. Both of them want to fight at midrange, but the Sleipnir also performs passably well up close (especially against light mechs, where the PPFLD of the autocannons makes them much more threatening than lasers). Because of this the Sleipnir can position in locations where the Stalker would be at too great a risk of being overrun or singled out by light mechs, which opens up more tactical opportunities like flanking, taking cheeky angles, or even pushing in to secure kills. I still think laservomit is better overall at midrange, but there are benefits to being less frontloaded.