16 replies to this topic

[OsceeHawk]

I'm old but new and old at the game.
I've often heard disparaging comments/remarks during MWO matches about 'nascaring'.
I watch youtubes and one of my favorite is Baraul. He too disses nascar.
Why?
I don't know military doctrine/theory. Is going around to the rear of your enemy bad? Maybe when the enemy is doing the same to you?

Anyway I've always been curious and thought to ask.

Edited by OsceeHawk, 26 November 2024 - 02:53 PM.

[Powerlifter]

Without going into a ton of detail.

Mechs are different speeds. Your light goes 120. My assault goes 55. We'll end up spread apart which makes it hard for teams to fight together effectively.

As you rotate you catch up to the enemy assaults. The enemy lights catch up to my assault. No one really has an advantage here. Teams are just swapping positions without gaining a benefit.

Mechs that are constantly repositioning aren't shooting effectively because they give up advantageous positions. If a mech sets up in a good position to control the map they can get 1000 damage. If the same mech is constantly rotating the amount of time they spend in a good position to shoot from is minimized. The bottom of a valley on Canyon Network isn't a good place to shoot from compared to the top of a hill with cover.

There are some great spots on maps where teams can setup to shoot and control portions of the maps from. Slow heavy mechs can setup shop in these spots and use their firepower to control the map. However, if 2 or 3 mechs setup shop in good spots and the rest of the team rotates away those 2 or 3 stationary mechs will get overwhelmed by numbers.

Movement is important but the whole team can't move. The heavies and assaults need to setup shop in good positions while the lights move for flanks and the mediums act as fire support and counter lights.

Watch how comp teams play maps. They don't just rotate in a big ******* circle. They play positions and make decisive counter moves based on what the enemy does.

A team that nascars into a team that is setup to receive the rotation will lose every time. So better players want their team to setup and counter the nascar rather than nascaring themselves.

Edited by Powerlifter, 26 November 2024 - 05:45 PM.

[Ttly]

A lot of NASCAR teams aren't even good at it.
Extremely potato teams instead of "rotating the bowl's rim" would instead go to the extremely far left/right which are terrible positions instead by being extremely open sniper lane with limited line of fire. This then would be exploited by "left goers" of the enemy team and bla bla bla, your team loses.

Oh right, some maps are also more of a north/south map. Mining Collective for example, only has the G4/G5 dark hill at the SOUTH or east/west maps on some other cases rather than being left/right, so blindly adhering to "going right" is just going to get you burned on them.
But hey, if you're playing on QP sometimes you just can't do anything but follow the team's inertia. Or maybe you just don't care about those damage farming HAG80 ECM sniper loadouts comp players who told the team to "hold this sniping position" because you (and most of the team) don't run sniping loadouts for once and you're playing for fun instead of playing to win (and not having fun) and they're really only asking you to "hold this position" so they don't get ganked by lights more often than not.

Oh right, this is also why scouting is still important despite teams being "predictable" because you don't want to walk to the right while playing a relatively slow vehicle only to eat an 80 damage alpha trade from an anticipating MDD-C that you lose on because most vehicles can't do as much damage in as short of a time without mixed weapons loadout that are a lot less accurate.

Edited by Ttly, 26 November 2024 - 07:02 PM.

[MrMadguy]

Major reason for NASCAR - is this mentality. And while overall it's right, there is another rule to follow. Follow Assaults, not Lights. Lights should flank enemy team, should scout, lock targets for LRMs and just harass enemies. But Mediums and Heavies should never follow them. Lights don't need support and should always think about their safety by themselves. That's it.

[Ttly]

MrMadguy, on 27 November 2024 - 02:26 AM, said:

Major reason for NASCAR - is this mentality. And while overall it's right, there is another rule to follow. Follow Assaults, not Lights. Lights should flank enemy team, should scout, lock targets for LRMs and just harass enemies. But Mediums and Heavies should never follow them. Lights don't need support and should always think about their safety by themselves. That's it.

Follow assaults he says! Yeah right, follow that guy who only wants to play the game to pad out numbers by sniping for the next 10 minutes for 800 damage instead of playing something that does 600 damage in 4 minutes and clocking out of the match for another one.
Because yeah, player intent in a match can be different from each other.

But yeah sure, if there's an assault that is actually trying to push up and tank for the team, you should follow them assuming they're not just walking into a chokepoint feeding the enemy team because the entire team are too closely packed together like tin sardines and can't shoot a damn thing without hitting each other since some people don't know how to spread out just right.
It's also not helped by the fact that tanking for the team is just not that well rewarded for assaults I guess.

Edited by Ttly, 27 November 2024 - 05:44 AM.

[RockmachinE]

Its not a bad thing. Its organic in MWO to want to outflank the enemy.

People complain because their 46 kp/h super assaults with 8xERLL don't get to stand in one place and snipe.

[Powerlifter]

Ttly, on 27 November 2024 - 05:31 AM, said:

Follow assaults he says! Yeah right, follow that guy who only wants to play the game to pad out numbers by sniping for the next 10 minutes for 800 damage instead of playing something that does 600 damage in 4 minutes and clocking out of the match for another one.

The problem with this idea is that the ones doing the rotation often end up dying in a valley after doing 200 damage. I'm always happy when I have a couple assaults on my team who do 800+ damage with ERLL because the enemy mechs are easy to finish off then. That's a lot of armor ripped off LT, RT, and CT. A few mid range laser vomit mechs backed by a few ERLL snipers holding good positions will cook most QP teams.

Once a team gets ahead by 3 kills and your team knows where the enemy mechs are shooting from your team can start rotating to finish off them off.

Rotating right off the bat is just moving blindly without a plan and it fails a lot.

[Ttly]

Powerlifter, on 27 November 2024 - 11:27 AM, said:

The problem with this idea is that the ones doing the rotation often end up dying in a valley after doing 200 damage. I'm always happy when I have a couple assaults on my team who do 800+ damage with ERLL because the enemy mechs are easy to finish off then. That's a lot of armor ripped off LT, RT, and CT. A few mid range laser vomit mechs backed by a few ERLL snipers holding good positions will cook most QP teams.

It's "800 damage across 10 minutes" not "800 damage within the first 5 minutes of the match where it's actually impactful" if anything it works the other way around, they're the ones that are finishing off damaged mechs after having the rest of the team soften them up. Not to mention the sniping positions on most maps usually lends to a more "passive and defensive" type of gameplay which to boot usually means "playing to lose unless you snipe hard enough/your team actually gives ground to the enemy (usually because they're losing) for once so they walk into the place they can get sniped".
Not to mention that damage done number is a pretty poor metric over hp% damage and how destroying an ST counts as taking out the arm hit points as well for damage count too to inflate it pretty sure.
There are exceptions like the HAG80 WHMIIC-ML/DWF/BANE/SR or MAD2C-D HAG60+2ERLL snipers that could snipe and do that much impact early enough if it's shooting at poorly positioned assaults sure, but those are more of a glaring exception thing. Oh or the MAD-4L or KGC-001 (like anyone plays this one because no ECM though) for pinpoint sniping damage too sure, less popular since they don't pull bigger raw damage numbers though.

Edited by Ttly, 27 November 2024 - 12:10 PM.

[Powerlifter]

Ttly, on 27 November 2024 - 11:38 AM, said:

It's "800 damage across 10 minutes" not "800 damage within the first 5 minutes of the match where it's actually impactful" if anything it works the other way around, they're the ones that are finishing off damaged mechs after having the rest of the team soften them up. Not to mention the sniping positions on most maps usually lends to a more "passive and defensive" type of gameplay which to boot usually means "playing to lose unless you snipe hard enough/your team actually gives ground to the enemy (usually because they're losing) for once so they walk into the place they can get sniped".
Not to mention that damage done number is a pretty poor metric over hp% damage and how destroying an ST counts as taking out the arm hit points as well for damage count too to inflate it pretty sure.
There are exceptions like the HAG80 WHMIIC-ML/DWF/BANE/SR or MAD2C-D HAG60+2ERLL snipers that could snipe and do that much impact early enough if it's shooting at poorly positioned assaults sure, but those are more of a glaring exception thing. Oh or the MAD-4L or KGC-001 (like anyone plays this one because no ECM though) for pinpoint sniping damage too sure, less popular since they don't pull bigger raw damage numbers though.

Maybe it varies by tier. Rotators die badly in my games to teams that hold good positions and focus fire. Once a team has gotten a kill lead then they mobilize and mop up what's left. Everyone rotating low ground in Canyon Network just dies doing 200 damage.

[Moadebe]

Consider NASCAR as a (and I cant stress this enough) mindless rotation. No thought. No cohesion. No attempt at trying to lead by anyone. Just mindlessly rotating to attempt to get around to the enemies backside.

NASCAR isnt just everyone just moving down your right/left flank after spawning in and stopping after a few grids. Its just where people keep rotating because they dont want to be left behind.

Personally I think its a symptom of some people seeing a mech (usually a fast light mech or medium mech) go for a flank and they try to follow along. Usually it leads to more following (see not left behind).

Edited by Moadebe, 27 November 2024 - 01:25 PM.

[foamyesque]

S'why I very much prefer to find a strong left-side position and hold that. People run right into your guns. Hell, sometimes they run past them and you can get back shots.

[MrMadguy]

Ttly, on 27 November 2024 - 11:38 AM, said:

It's "800 damage across 10 minutes" not "800 damage within the first 5 minutes of the match where it's actually impactful" if anything it works the other way around, they're the ones that are finishing off damaged mechs after having the rest of the team soften them up. Not to mention the sniping positions on most maps usually lends to a more "passive and defensive" type of gameplay which to boot usually means "playing to lose unless you snipe hard enough/your team actually gives ground to the enemy (usually because they're losing) for once so they walk into the place they can get sniped".
Not to mention that damage done number is a pretty poor metric over hp% damage and how destroying an ST counts as taking out the arm hit points as well for damage count too to inflate it pretty sure.
There are exceptions like the HAG80 WHMIIC-ML/DWF/BANE/SR or MAD2C-D HAG60+2ERLL snipers that could snipe and do that much impact early enough if it's shooting at poorly positioned assaults sure, but those are more of a glaring exception thing. Oh or the MAD-4L or KGC-001 (like anyone plays this one because no ECM though) for pinpoint sniping damage too sure, less popular since they don't pull bigger raw damage numbers though.

Sometimes deathball works, sometimes it doesn't. You don't understand players' psychology. Good match - is about balance between supporting your teammates and self-preservation instinct. Game is never about camping, unless it's some open map with lack of cover, like Frozen City. Even if one of teams camps, other team always decides to attack. So, winning in this game is usually about patience. Team, that gives up first - loses. Problem is - it's hypothetical scenario, where both teams are equal. Matchmaking is so bad in this game, that it never happens. So, attacking team can win, if it's just better than defending one. Because players, who just flee or hide when enemy attacks - are useless.

But in most cases both teams pick some spot on a map, where both teams can fight with each other, while having good position. Some central structure. Good thing, if map has one. Even better, if it has several, like Canyon or Turmaline for example. But some bad maps don't have such spot. So, both teams camp until one of them gives up. Well, not even team. Some impatient players.

Edited by MrMadguy, 28 November 2024 - 06:50 AM.

[Ttly]

MrMadguy, on 28 November 2024 - 06:47 AM, said:

Sometimes deathball works, sometimes it doesn't. You don't understand players' psychology. Good match - is about balance between supporting your teammates and self-preservation instinct. Game is never about camping, unless it's some open map with lack of cover, like Frozen City. Even if one of teams camps, other team always decides to attack. So, winning in this game is usually about patience. Team, that gives up first - loses. Problem is - it's hypothetical scenario, where both teams are equal. Matchmaking is so bad in this game, that it never happens. So, attacking team can win, if it's just better than defending one. Because players, who just flee or hide when enemy attacks - are useless.

But in most cases both teams pick some spot on a map, where both teams can fight with each other, while having good position. Some central structure. Good thing, if map has one. Even better, if it has several, like Canyon or Turmaline for example. But some bad maps don't have such spot. So, both teams camp until one of them gives up. Well, not even team. Some impatient players.

No, you're the one that "doesn't understand psychology" people play this game to just mess around, run jank builds, farm out their stats, do funny strats, or farm out C-Bills/XP. You don't get to define what a "good game" is when each player can have various conflicting agendas running around like that.
And why did you even follow that statement with winning or losing? A good game isn't even necessarily defined by that, by definiton there's going to always be a losing and winning team, and you can still have a "good game" even on a loss. And then what? You follow that with "oh it's all about being patient and playing defensively better but the attacking team can still win because matchmaking sucks!" continued by "players who just flee or hide when enemy attacks are useless!" which seems a rather telling statement on not playing hit-and-run lights which does that as a rule, though then again they're not that popular in this game where most of the playerbase are frankly geriatrics (no really, there's a lot of posts saying people are in their 40s playing this game if you look around on profiles) that don't seem to be able to play them well over heavies/assaults anyhow.

As for the second paragraph, both teams picking a spot on the map and fight with each other while having good position? What? Yeah sure, like how everyone goes to around E6 on Tourmaline I guess, or people brawling over the south mountain on Alpine. But that's more a consequence of again, not everyone running long range sniping loadouts because they're just not that fun, and also rather dismissive of scouting so your team doesn't wander into a bad spot.

[MrMadguy]

Ttly, on 28 November 2024 - 07:27 AM, said:

No, you're the one that "doesn't understand psychology" people play this game to just mess around, run jank builds, farm out their stats, do funny strats, or farm out C-Bills/XP. You don't get to define what a "good game" is when each player can have various conflicting agendas running around like that.
And why did you even follow that statement with winning or losing? A good game isn't even necessarily defined by that, by definiton there's going to always be a losing and winning team, and you can still have a "good game" even on a loss. And then what? You follow that with "oh it's all about being patient and playing defensively better but the attacking team can still win because matchmaking sucks!" continued by "players who just flee or hide when enemy attacks are useless!" which seems a rather telling statement on not playing hit-and-run lights which does that as a rule, though then again they're not that popular in this game where most of the playerbase are frankly geriatrics (no really, there's a lot of posts saying people are in their 40s playing this game if you look around on profiles) that don't seem to be able to play them well over heavies/assaults anyhow.

As for the second paragraph, both teams picking a spot on the map and fight with each other while having good position? What? Yeah sure, like how everyone goes to around E6 on Tourmaline I guess, or people brawling over the south mountain on Alpine. But that's more a consequence of again, not everyone running long range sniping loadouts because they're just not that fun, and also rather dismissive of scouting so your team doesn't wander into a bad spot.

Yeah, yeah. Real truth is simple. We all know, that players have just 2 reasons to play:
1) Farm dmg, because it's event and therefore player needs either dmg or match score, that are almost the same
2) If it's not event - still farm dmg, cuz there is no other interesting goal in this game

[Moadebe]

MrMadguy, on 28 November 2024 - 08:03 AM, said:

Yeah, yeah. Real truth is simple. We all know, that players have just 2 reasons to play:
1) Farm dmg, because it's event and therefore player needs either dmg or match score, that are almost the same
2) If it's not event - still farm dmg, cuz there is no other interesting goal in this game

This....This right here is whats ruining this game. This VERY mentality of "its all about farming damage...I mean thats where the incentive lies right?" And having the inability to look PAST that.

Just farming damage is NOT a reason to play. Those are reasons to play the way someone does.

Playing is EXACTLY what he was talking about. Taking out a jank build and seeing how you do. Its about damage right? Well...Its about taking out a jank build and seeing how far you can push it and what numbers you can pull with it when it has no right to pull the numbers it does. In comparison some high alpha safe play mech (i.e assault decked out in ERLL/Gauss spam) is a safe bet to just ... farm damage. Its EASY to pull the numbers with such a setup so long as you are not harassed. Which is a 50/50...you either are harassed and your damage numbers tank...or you are not cause you are so far outta the fight yet you can still deal damage.

Its taking the character of the game outta it for the sake of reward.

Edited by Moadebe, 28 November 2024 - 09:42 AM.

[MrMadguy]

Moadebe, on 28 November 2024 - 09:42 AM, said:

Playing is EXACTLY what he was talking about. Taking out a jank build and seeing how you do. Its about damage right? Well...Its about taking out a jank build and seeing how far you can push it and what numbers you can pull with it when it has no right to pull the numbers it does. In comparison some high alpha safe play mech (i.e assault decked out in ERLL/Gauss spam) is a safe bet to just ... farm damage. Its EASY to pull the numbers with such a setup so long as you are not harassed. Which is a 50/50...you either are harassed and your damage numbers tank...or you are not cause you are so far outta the fight yet you can still deal damage.

How would you see, how you do, if not via DMG? Match score? Match score is pointless. Again. This game is about balance. It's about running on edge. How far you can push without dying? Isn't DMG the best measure in this case? Yeah, some players may have other long term goals. For example my long term goal was to collect 'Mechs. Problem is - 95% 'Mechs are useless. You buy them, but you can't play them. So I ended up playing just 1-5 'Mechs. And when matchmaking became so bad, that even those 1-5 became unplayable - it was time to quit this game, cuz I didn't have any other options.

Edited by MrMadguy, 29 November 2024 - 02:51 AM.

[Void Angel]

OsceeHawk, on 26 November 2024 - 02:53 PM, said:

I'm old but new and old at the game.
I've often heard disparaging comments/remarks during MWO matches about 'nascaring'.
I watch youtubes and one of my favorite is Baraul. He too disses nascar.
Why?
I don't know military doctrine/theory. Is going around to the rear of your enemy bad? Maybe when the enemy is doing the same to you?

Anyway I've always been curious and thought to ask.

Wow, you asked a good question, got basically one good answer - and a lot of people being angry at each other and peddling salt.

"NASCAR" is a buzzword; a pejorative slang term for a tendency that's cropped up for teams to just mutually rotate around a central terrain feature on the map; it's a sarcastic comparison to the racing format of the same name in real life. As Powerlifter explained, when this happens, teams will each veer to the right of a central terrain feature (e.g. the central cauldron on old Caustic Valley) and keep rotating around it - but not actually as a team. Often no one communicates, and the slower 'mechs are gradually left behind, until the fastest 'mechs on the enemy team catch up with them.

Mechwarrior games - inlcluding this one - are all about skilled attrition. You should expect to take damage during a match, and managing this damage - twisting your torso to spread around incoming fire, for example - is a vital skill. You can avoid some damage in a fast, or long-ranged, 'mech, of course, but at the end of the day, you're taking chances in order to deal damage to the enemy.

OK, so when you have a "nascar" situation, generally one team will have more fast 'mechs than the other - even the various Assaults have different speeds. And, if none of the slow 'mechs take action to break out of the mutual rotation, the team with more fast movers will swarm the rearmost Assaults and kill them faster than the slower team - giving the slower team a significant disadvantage in that skilled attrition game, because now there are 12 'mechs on one team taking shots at 11 'mechs on the other. All other things being equal, the math will usually start to tell. The match isn't over, and the slower team may well be killing an assault from the fast team soon after, but the flow of battle has been altered strongly in favor of the faster team.

And the faster team didn't do anything to earn it. They just ran around the map in mindless, drooling ecstasy. That's why people hate the nascar tendency - it literally allows the match to be decided strongly by happenstance (like Elo Hell in League of Legends, if you know,) and punishes those slow assaults just for playing a slow build. It got bad enough Back in the Day that some players simply stopped playing slow-moving 'mechs, and the most toxic would even rage quit when they saw certain maps (like the original Caustic Valley.) There are various explanations/excuses for the behavior - I personally think it's just because most players are right-handed - but it's a terrible tactical action that leaves victory up to chance more than your own actions. In short, that's why people hate on it so much, and the practice has caused a lot of frustration.

For more on "nascar" failures, how rotation can work, and a vast plethora of basic tactical illustrations, check out Fat4eyes' Tactics 101 comics. It's clear, concise, illustrated, and well worth the read.

Edited by Void Angel, 29 November 2024 - 03:43 AM.