22 replies to this topic

[Saved By The Bell]

I sometimes use Large pulse lasers on builds, which made for it.

As clan pulse laser is superb, like slow 4 laser rifleman, I found that IS pulse lasers are bad.
Just now I am in AWESOME AWS-8T, it made for 4 pulse lasers. So x-pulse are good, but pulse lasers weak.

Its my problem or they really so bad?

[Ttly]

0.75s laser burn duration is obscene, an IS LPL mech can peek out for a really short time and do real damage, coupled with generally higher agility they have (even if usually slower moving) allows them to minimize exposure and taking damage at all from counterfire.
Meanwhile a C-LPL equivalent needs an entire solid second which is about the same duration as regular IS large laser even if it has more range. Oh also lower HSL limit.

Oh also the 4C-LPL RFL-IIC is the slowest heavy in the game, moving slower than most assaults. It's entitled to that much firepower at least. I mean you could look at the MAD-9M (ECM ERLL Marauder, try running it with an XL) for its IS role equivalent and see how meh RFL-IIC is in comparison.

And by the way, LXPL/Beam Lasers need to hit their target for about 2 seconds to be better than their alternatives, it requires their target to be out of position/ignore you for it to be good generally with that in mind.

Edited by Ttly, 16 January 2025 - 06:47 AM.

[Void Angel]

Saved By The Bell, on 16 January 2025 - 04:25 AM, said:

I sometimes use Large pulse lasers on builds, which made for it.

As clan pulse laser is superb, like slow 4 laser rifleman, I found that IS pulse lasers are bad.
Just now I am in AWESOME AWS-8T, it made for 4 pulse lasers. So x-pulse are good, but pulse lasers weak.

Its my problem or they really so bad?

Not really so bad, no - but they are different. IS LPLs have better DPS, better heat per second, better laser duration, and better damage per heat. It pays for these advantages with higher tonnage and shorter range - Clan LPLs outrange their IS counterparts by 37.5%, a fact that often gets glossed over when Clanboys start harping on the drawbacks of their tech.

So: it's not a terrible weapon, but if you're trying to use it at Clan ranges, you'll have severe issues. Also remember that large-class lasers are generally more amenable to engagements at the middle ranges or beyond - closer in, smaller lasers and other weapons will out-damage you, so whether you're using Large Pulse Lasers or not, be sure you have the firepower to be a threat at whatever range you want to fight.

Edited by Void Angel, 16 January 2025 - 10:32 AM.

[Ttly]

Void Angel, on 16 January 2025 - 07:56 AM, said:

Not really so bad, no - but they are different. IS LPLs have better DPS, better heat per second, better laser duration, and better damage per heat. It pays for these advantages with higher tonnage and shorter range - Clan LPLs outrange their IS counterparts by 37.5%, a fact that often gets glossed over when Clanboys start harping on the drawbacks of their tech.

Extra range isn't a substitute for sub-1second base laser duration.
Besides, in the LPL Awesome's case, it has enough range quirks to pretty much play at that range.

[Void Angel]

PS: Clan LPLs also have a 15% higher up-front damage, so in a normal skirmish engagement where you're firing and then moving into cover, the Clan option will win trades - this might be why you're not having good results with the IS LPLs. It's not all bad for the IS, because they can trade a bit more often - their total (base) cycle time is 3.75 seconds, while the Clans can only fire once every 4.5.

[Ttly]

Void Angel, on 16 January 2025 - 10:37 AM, said:

PS: Clan LPLs also have a 15% higher up-front damage, so in a normal skirmish engagement where you're firing and then moving into cover, the Clan option will win trades - this might be why you're not having good results with the IS LPLs. It's not all bad for the IS, because they can trade a bit more often - their total (base) cycle time is 3.75 seconds, while the Clans can only fire once every 4.5.

+15% alpha per laser mounted doesn't necessarily translate to shorter time to kill.
3LPL can do 180 damage (pretty much an entire Atlas' front CT) in like 23 seconds ignoring heat.
Meanwhile 3C-LPL would take like 26 seconds in the same case taking account of stagger-firing to avoid the ghost heat.

And again, the shorter laser duration is a big deal, helps against moving targets, helps the damage focus on a single limb. And well, helps in letting you torso twisting earlier than otherwise.

Edited by Ttly, 16 January 2025 - 10:51 AM.

[Void Angel]

Ttly, on 16 January 2025 - 10:36 AM, said:

Extra range isn't a substitute for sub-1second base laser duration.
Besides, in the LPL Awesome's case, it has enough range quirks to pretty much play at that range.

Sure it is. Or rather, the entire package is pretty well balanced against the IS counterpart, and 37.5% extra range is a not-insignificant factor in that. The difference in DPS is 1.4% of the IS LPL's stats, for reference - HPS is 7% lower, and DPH is 8% lower. I'm not going to break out my graphing calculator to calculate damage falloff, but you don't have to be very far outside the IS effective range before that higher DPS and DPH are subsumed by damage falloff. Stack that with the rest of the Clan kit - which include your space-effective double heat sinks - and stuff evens out, provided you evaluate the tech under actual match conditions. Laser duration is important; so is a third more range.

[LordNothing]

its the range that kills it for me. clans are optimal through most of the mid ranges, where as is lpl drops out 150 meters sooner. its doing 6.875 damage where clpl still doing 13. so it doesnt quite cover the full gamut of midrange engagements. even with the faster cd, clpl still out-trades it.

of course this does not mean its not good for closer engagements, but the midrange i think happens a lot more often, so the is lpl is a lot more situational. its a brawlers laser.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 January 2025 - 11:19 AM.

[Void Angel]

Ttly, on 16 January 2025 - 10:47 AM, said:

+15% alpha per laser mounted doesn't necessarily translate to shorter time to kill. 3LPL can do 180 damage (pretty much an entire Atlas' front CT) in like 23 seconds ignoring heat.
Meanwhile 3C-LPL would take like 26 seconds in the same case taking account of stagger-firing to avoid the ghost heat.

And when matches consist of players all walking out into the open and slugging it out at their preferred ranges, that will be a valid comparison. But when your imagined players actually behave like players in a match, you get different results: the Clan laser is better at trading, with higher up-front alpha and a major range advantage, while the IS is a better at sustained engagements at lower range. Players are going to be maneuvering as much as they can to take advantage of those qualities - you can't just count up the damage numbers like the lasers were sitting in clamps on a testing range somewhere. You also can't just insist that beam duration is such an overriding concern that it trumps the ability to engage at significantly longer ranges: the IS LPL has 25% better laser duration than its counterpart, sure; the Clan LPL has 18% better up-front damage at 37.5% longer range. Those stats make a difference, and push the two weapons into different styles of play. You're trying to wave away the latter stats because of the former, but all you're doing is demonstrating bias confirmation in action.

The current state of cLPLs is based on game performance telemetry that we don't have - if they're actually underperforming, they'll get buffed, but I don't see that happening, having played both tech bases. And as someone who plays and enjoys both tech bases, if I had to pick one tech base to play under? I'd take the Clans.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

IS LPL's are 1 ton heavier, less raw damage, far less heat, but also signifcantly less range. The trade off is much shorter burn time, making them more precise.

LPL's you want to pair with ER MLas to match similar range profile and burn time, preferable on a mech with heat, range and laser duration quriks... or in the case of a few mechs +1 HSL.

The alternative is pair LPL's with face time duration weapons like RACs, or Ultra ACs where you can fire off a couple volleys during the burn time. The trick with IS LPL's isn't so much the damage or heat, but just getting the range up high enough where you can plink targets effectively without MPL's far better weight to damage ratio the superior choice.


So, get Range quirks, Range Pilot skills, and a TC to get that range as high as it can, and use at least 2-4 of them if possible, since the best thing to pair with a laser is ... well... more laser.

The "lack of quirks" on clan mechs is because their weapons are outright better in every way. Even heat isn't an issue since you can fit on 5-10 more DHS in some examples to entirely offset the extra heat buildup, while getting ~50% more range and damage.

Edited by 80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie, 16 January 2025 - 11:54 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Void Angel, on 16 January 2025 - 11:14 AM, said:

The current state of cLPLs is based on game performance telemetry that we don't have - if they're actually underperforming, they'll get buffed, but I don't see that happening, having played both tech bases. And as someone who plays and enjoys both tech bases, if I had to pick one tech base to play under? I'd take the Clans.

This, cLPLs are in a better state than iLPLs which is a similar thing I'd say about Clan tech as a whole.

[Ttly]

Void Angel, on 16 January 2025 - 10:52 AM, said:

Sure it is. Or rather, the entire package is pretty well balanced against the IS counterpart, and 37.5% extra range is a not-insignificant factor in that. The difference in DPS is 1.4% of the IS LPL's stats, for reference - HPS is 7% lower, and DPH is 8% lower. I'm not going to break out my graphing calculator to calculate damage falloff, but you don't have to be very far outside the IS effective range before that higher DPS and DPH are subsumed by damage falloff. Stack that with the rest of the Clan kit - which include your space-effective double heat sinks - and stuff evens out, provided you evaluate the tech under actual match conditions. Laser duration is important; so is a third more range.

The range is nice sure. But beyond 500m which C-LPL supposedly performs better, it's rather overrated since most QP maps accomodate playstyles under that range just fine (barring derpy teams positioning themselves poorly and forcing you to play along because an awful team is better than no team at the end of the day), and well at that point the other stats starts to matter more.
The burn duration lets you counter enemy peeks better than otherwise, the combination of 20% less heat per shot (on top of IS mech quirks, in the LPL Awesome's case it ends up being about 30% cooler than C-LPL quirkless/low quirk the like of MAD-IIC/Warhawk/WHM-IIC/Gargoyle or the like has to deal with) lets you shoot just as much even taking account of cDHS and skill nodes (which soups up the duration even lower too), the higher HSL lets your alpha (which are also in form of 0.7s burns) be higher and more accurate, so on.

And well if your argument is that "on real matches players don't do this or that" well that's also rather presumptious (and ignoring the occasional map picks where the extra range aren't as big of a perk), and dismissive of these other qualities (higher HSL, less heat, shorter burn).
Really, by your own argument I'd also say you can't also just insist that weapon range is such an overriding concern.
As valued as range is for being "versatile" as it lets you be effective (often at all) on positions where other builds doesn't, that is also ignoring the players that don't feel like playing that way/maps' that makes these other qualities a lot more valuable and the time where you do get matches that makes them shine a lot more than the "ever reliable" range advantage.
Telemetry also doesn't excuse weird balancing decisions like buffing AC velocities (AC2s having near-gauss velocity now) or lack thereof (flamers being flamers) either. Or how a weapon over/underperforms only because the teams in a match lets/prevents their user from performing well due to range/positioning (LPLs and LRMs for example here).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ttly, on 16 January 2025 - 12:11 PM, said:

The burn duration lets you counter enemy peeks better than otherwise, the combination of 20% less heat per shot (on top of IS mech quirks, in the LPL Awesome's case it ends up being about 30% cooler than C-LPL quirkless/low quirk the like of MAD-IIC/Warhawk/WHM-IIC/Gargoyle or the like has to deal with) lets you shoot just as much even taking account of cDHS and skill nodes (which soups up the duration even lower too), the higher HSL lets your alpha (which are also in form of 0.7s burns) be higher and more accurate, so on

If you are comparing a 4 LPL Awesome to any 5-6 cLPL assault you're already in disingenuous territory. They don't remotely compete for the same roles, especially the barn door that is the Awesome which cannot remotely trade against better cLPL platforms (5 cLPL Blood Asp is probably one of the best options there for assaults, but 3 cLPL + 3 cERML + 2 Gauss MKII-DS is also a solid option).

Ttly, on 16 January 2025 - 12:11 PM, said:

Telemetry also doesn't excuse weird balancing decisions like buffing AC velocities (AC2s having near-gauss velocity now)

AC2s have traditionally had near Gauss velocity, because range and velocity are intrinsically linked when it comes to usability. AC2s just aren't used much outside QP and velocity buffs have minimal impact in QP where it's used for assault farming.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 16 January 2025 - 04:19 PM.

[LordNothing]

the ac2 problem is that they are completely useless outside of boating them. but because you need to boat them and they have range, you cant buff them, because then you buff the boat. they can work in small numbers with the right dps quirks, and id like to see more lights and mediums with <4 hardpoints get crazy ac2 quirks. but now that we have lac5s i dont think thats as big of a problem anymore. finding a use for the lac/pac2 is the new problem.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 January 2025 - 04:42 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 16 January 2025 - 04:42 PM, said:

the ac2 problem is that they are completely useless outside of boating them. but because you need to boat them and they have range, you cant buff them, because then you buff the boat. they can work in small numbers with the right dps quirks, and id like to see more lights and mediums with <4 hardpoints get crazy ac2 quirks. but now that we have lac5s i dont think thats as big of a problem anymore. finding a use for the lac/pac2 is the new problem.

It's not just AC2s that suffer from this, several mediums/heavies feel weak because their firepower isn't up to snuff anymore and they don't have the tonnage to squeeze more firepower. Ultimately this is the product of power creep in heat dissipation and armor. More armor on the field means more firepower is needed to destroy the enemies before they can close the gap and more dissipation helps fuel firepower with more DPS that once might've been considered too low to do anything.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 16 January 2025 - 04:53 PM.

[LordNothing]

this is kind of a tangent to the topic but what if we do this:

give each hardpoint a number rating based on its value. things like available slottage, available actuators (for arm weapons), vertical height, lateral distance from center, etc. all factor into it.

sum up hardpoint ratings of each type.

apply quirks inversely proportional to total rating.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 January 2025 - 09:34 PM.

[Saved By The Bell]

Well, this one Awesome cant brawl, he is fat and lasers are low in both arms. So x-pulse fight to death looks better option...

[Void Angel]

Heh. Or just avoid the Awesome; that 'mech has gotten a lot of buffs over the years, but they haven't been able to compensate for its huge hit boxes and profile. If you're trying to use the Awesome LPL build and struggling, it's not the Pulse Lasers - it's the 'Mech. You have to play that awesome kind of like a Medium 'mech with giantism, and try to engage only when you're not being shot at. It's... not the best 'mech.

Edited by Void Angel, 16 January 2025 - 11:32 PM.

[Void Angel]

As for the awesome power of .25 seconds of corner-peeking exposure, you are not going to get any 'mech capable of using 3 LPLs into and out of cover before the enemy can return fire - it's going to take you more than the one second burn time of the cLPL, for example. And the clanner isn't suffering damage falloff while this is going on, but in a lot of situations the iLPL will be.

If you're trading with IS LPLs against a Clan 'mech, your extra dps doesn't matter, either! Because he's not going to just stand there playing ro-sham-bo with you; he's only going to peek when his lasers have cycled back up. The spheroid isn't going to magically do his weapon's full DPS through cover, so we're comparing alphas in a trading contest - and while 26 damage is certainly less than 33 damage, the Clanner can do it from significantly farther away. You keep trying to hand-wave that huge range advantage away, and I'm not going to let you. Nor am I going to let you get away with "forgetting" that no IS 'mech capable of supporting 3 LPLs is going to be comparable to a Clan 'mech firing two of them; that Clan 'mech is going to be using some of that tonnage differential on cERMLs. Even given the cERML's inferior range synch (the IS ERML is 90% of the iLPL's range; the Clan equivalent is 73%,) three cERMLs will more than make up the damage differential.

All of this is to say: You're a clanboy, we get it - that doesn't mean you need to constantly put forward disingenuous arguments in favor of overbuffing Clantech (again.)

[Ttly]

Void Angel, on 16 January 2025 - 11:41 PM, said:

As for the awesome power of .25 seconds of corner-peeking exposure, you are not going to get any 'mech capable of using 3 LPLs into and out of cover before the enemy can return fire - it's going to take you more than the one second burn time of the cLPL, for example. And the clanner isn't suffering damage falloff while this is going on, but in a lot of situations the iLPL will be.

If you're trading with IS LPLs against a Clan 'mech, your extra dps doesn't matter, either! Because he's not going to just stand there playing ro-sham-bo with you; he's only going to peek when his lasers have cycled back up. The spheroid isn't going to magically do his weapon's full DPS through cover, so we're comparing alphas in a trading contest - and while 26 damage is certainly less than 33 damage, the Clanner can do it from significantly farther away. You keep trying to hand-wave that huge range advantage away, and I'm not going to let you. Nor am I going to let you get away with "forgetting" that no IS 'mech capable of supporting 3 LPLs is going to be comparable to a Clan 'mech firing two of them; that Clan 'mech is going to be using some of that tonnage differential on cERMLs. Even given the cERML's inferior range synch (the IS ERML is 90% of the iLPL's range; the Clan equivalent is 73%,) three cERMLs will more than make up the damage differential.

All of this is to say: You're a clanboy, we get it - that doesn't mean you need to constantly put forward disingenuous arguments in favor of overbuffing Clantech (again.)

As for the awesome power of 2 more damage in alpha and more range, you are not going to get any mech capable of using C-LPLs to torso twist and reverse itself as early as the IS LPL one does.

If you're trading with C-LPL against a IS 'mech, your extra range isn't as big of an advantage either! Because the game's maps are mostly even if not always, accomodate 500m range weaponries just fine. The clannerscum isn't going to magically do his weapon's full damage in an as pinoint manner as the IS one either, so we're comparing not just alpha, but effective alpha contest - and while more range is certainly a factor. You keep trying to hand-wave that shorter burn duration and higher HSL advantage away, and I'm not going to let you. Nor am I going to let you get away with "forgetting" that no Clan 'mech capable of supporting two LPLs is going to be comparable to a IS 'mech firing three of them; that IS 'mech can use its agility and shorter burn advantage, to fade away and reduce the effectiveness of your counterfire; that IS 'mech has armor/structure points through quirks to take that trade out of its durability percentage in its favour even if it takes more points in damage, coupled with the advantage of its ability to twist quite a bit of that damage away much more sooner coupled with player reaction time reducing the C-LPL's effectiveness, and how not every clan mechs has the hardpoint-bloat+free tonnage in some omnis' case, necessary to supplement their C-LPL with C-ERMLs.
Even given the range disadvantage, that has never stopped mechs like the Crael with its short range and high DPS HMG+SRM builds from dominating in matches.

All of this is to say: You're even more of a paper performance nerd, I get it - that doesn't mean you need to constantly put forward disingenuous arguments in how range advantage is the end-all decising factor in C-LPL's favour.