46 replies to this topic

[Drenzul]

Seriously just taking a look at the new clan mechs for wolf's dragoons....

Lets have a look at comparative armour values

CT Armour max
Clan Nightstar | IS Nightstar | Madcat (5 tons lighter)
120 | 168 | 135

Clan Stalker | IS Stalker |
108 | 133 |

Also comes as a bonus with not great quirks. I mean they aren't the worst quirks in the game but they ain't great either. Any time I look at these mechs and compare them to another I can drive, they generally are superior in 1 aspect and equal in others.

Sure they get access to clan equipment but boy, do they pay hard for it.
Only one of the 4 that actually looks appealing is the clan archer.

Am I missing something or do these mechs kinda suck?

[martian]

Drenzul, on 22 January 2025 - 01:04 PM, said:

Seriously just taking a look at the new clan mechs for wolf's dragoons....

Lets have a look at comparative armour values

CT Armour max
Clan Nightstar | IS Nightstar | Madcat (5 tons lighter)
120 | 168 | 135

Clan Stalker | IS Stalker |
108 | 133 |

Also comes as a bonus with not great quirks. I mean they aren't the worst quirks in the game but they ain't great either. Any time I look at these mechs and compare them to another I can drive, they generally are superior in 1 aspect and equal in others.

Sure they get access to clan equipment but boy, do they pay hard for it.
Only one of the 4 that actually looks appealing is the clan archer.

Armour values are not the only relevant stats.

The IS Nightstar has more armour quirks, all right. It also packs a better long ranged firepower with the added ER PPCs.

But once the Clan Nightstar gets closer to add its three Clan LPLs, it boosts its firepower significantly. On top of that, the Clan Nightstar is faster. The Clan Nightstar also jumps. And all that with the advantage of the more durable Clan Extralight engine, so it will not die due to the side torso loss.

Drenzul, on 22 January 2025 - 01:04 PM, said:

Am I missing something or do these mechs kinda suck?

Clan 'Mechs often pack stronger firepower than comparable IS 'Mechs.

So although some IS 'Mechs have armor, firepower or other quirks, Clan 'Mechs' firepower advantage often helps Clan 'Mechs to ablate the IS armor faster.

[Drenzul]

I'm going to disagree on several points.

I never said armour was the only factor, it was however a glaring one. 20% difference is pretty massive.
Doesn't even have any crit reduction bonus.

I'd take my dual UAC-20 nightstar 9s over the clan 3 LPL.
Clan weapons aren't cooler per damage than IS weapons and often have worse HSL limits.

Also in the assault weight bracket, heat is normally the limiting factor more so than weight.
The clan advantage is less pronounced for assaults than it is for lighter mechs.

That combined with it's lack of decent quirks and being significantly more fragile doesn't sell it to
me at all.

Quote

[color=#959595]On top of that, the Clan [/color]Nightstar [color=#959595]is faster. [/color]

How exactly is it faster? Both have 345 max engine size. Says same top speed in the mechlab for me.

Jump jets sure, guess I'm just not a fan of wasting 6 tons and 3 slots for a very situational ability. Sure it suits some mechs but not really this one IMHO.

I completely agree clan equipment is normally better and that has to be compensated for... but well, this
seems like too far.

The MCII-B by comparison has similar quirks, has more armour, is significantly faster and has access to all the same equipment and IMHO better weapon slots, while being 5 tons lighter....

No matter which I compare it to, its coming out behind.

Edit: Also IS have light engines instead of XL, so that doesn't really add reliability, just saves a couple of tons really. Can't think many people use IS XLs on assaults for that very reason.

Edited by Drenzul, 22 January 2025 - 03:49 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

If you think the Clan Stalker/Nightstar are weak....then I question whether you know how to play, and the fact you are bringing up a dual UAC20 nightstar like that's a good build answers that for me. Comparing the MCII-B is also faulty, they have different hardpoints. Your better comparison would be MCII-1 and MCII-DS with Gauss Vomit and none of them have more survivability.

To make matters worse is your nonsense excuse about LFEs, just wow

[sycocys]

You don't see a difference in 7 tons between engines? IS Light engine vs XL.
For a clan mech that's a free LPL and DHS if there's a few slots open.

Edited by sycocys, 22 January 2025 - 04:57 PM.

[Drenzul]

sycocys, on 22 January 2025 - 04:56 PM, said:

You don't see a difference in 7 tons between engines? IS Light engine vs XL.
For a clan mech that's a free LPL and DHS if there's a few slots open.

I never said that, I said it wasn't going to be a resilience issue as you are just going to
pick the light engine on an assault. Sure the extra tonnage is nice but when the bigger
worry is maxing out heat, its not that much of a big deal.

Quicksilver Aberration, on 22 January 2025 - 04:51 PM, said:

If you think the Clan Stalker/Nightstar are weak....then I question whether you know how to play, and the fact you are bringing up a dual UAC20 nightstar like that's a good build answers that for me. Comparing the MCII-B is also faulty, they have different hardpoints. Your better comparison would be MCII-1 and MCII-DS with Gauss Vomit and none of them have more survivability.

To make matters worse is your nonsense excuse about LFEs, just wow

Well given I'm generally in the top 3 players using it in most battles by match score..... Feels like a decent mech.
Not saying its the best in the world but its pretty solid.

Fact you resort to insults instead of providing a single actual argument says more about you really. Both in attitude and ability.

Edited by Drenzul, 22 January 2025 - 05:21 PM.

[sycocys]

Drenzul, on 22 January 2025 - 05:13 PM, said:

I never said that, I said it wasn't going to be a resilience issue as you are just going to
pick the light engine on an assault. Sure the extra tonnage is nice but when the bigger
worry is maxing out heat, its not that much of a big deal.

7 tons is a pretty substantial variance. That doesn't even consider the other tonnage/slot difference between running Guass or AC20 vs running LPL. When you start to add that in your worry about heat is largely to completely mitigated.

You are putting your UAC20 - 30 tons and 40 damage (w/o double tap) vs 18 tons and 39 damage and 20 slots vs 6 slots. That completely discounts ammo slots that you can't use for cooling.

Those 7 +12 tons and 14 slots compared to your build make a pretty substantial difference. Without even factoring in that you have to save tonnage somewhere to load out into big ballistic builds, and yours in particular still needs to be supported by heat sinks on top of ammo.

Edited by sycocys, 22 January 2025 - 05:51 PM.

[Drenzul]

sycocys, on 22 January 2025 - 05:51 PM, said:

7 tons is a pretty substantial variance. That doesn't even consider the other tonnage/slot difference between running Guass or AC20 vs running LPL. When you start to add that in your worry about heat is largely to completely mitigated.

You are putting your UAC20 - 30 tons and 40 damage (w/o double tap) vs 18 tons and 39 damage and 20 slots vs 6 slots. That completely discounts ammo slots that you can't use for cooling.

Those 7 +12 tons and 14 slots compared to your build make a pretty substantial difference. Without even factoring in that you have to save tonnage somewhere to load out into big ballistic builds, and yours in particular still needs to be supported by heat sinks on top of ammo.

Yep I completely agree there is a fairly big difference with clan mechs to IS. I never said otherwise.
I specifically said it should lose quirks/armour to compensate, I just said I think it lost too much. Now
if it had a decent heat quirk, it'd be a different story.

Ignoring the double-tap on the UAC/20s is kinda silly through. Its kinda a big perk.
Also ignoring the fact the 2xUAC/20 only produces 12 heat, vs 27 heat for 3x LPL.
By the time you've slapped on enough heat-sinks to compensate for that you are getting seriously low on crit slots.
Or you double-tap and you've got over double the damage for 3 less heat.

But for a brawler build (which was the point I was replying to), you'd still be better off with 6 MPLs, which output
42 damage per volley, have a quicker cooldown and only weigh 12 tons total for 22 heat per volley. I'd rather of
had the extra 2 energy slots than the HSL here.

Which back to the original point means it doesn't really excel in any area. The number of times you can get close
enough to use the LPL and not be closed on into a brawl are fairly minimal and if you stay further away you are
outclassed by longer ranged mechs. And its not fast enough to decide range either. The fact the lasers aren't
in the arms for faster aiming kinda also hurts when one of the main bonuses of LPLs is how useful they are vs lights...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Drenzul, on 22 January 2025 - 05:13 PM, said:

Fact you resort to insults instead of providing a single actual argument says more about you really. Both in attitude and ability.

You didn't really have factual statements either, you lead with nothing but misleading ones.
Weight is most definitely a limiting factor....for IS mechs because you can't easily fit the firepower necessary for an IS mech typically on assaults outside niche builds like laser vomit. Gauss Vomit is pretty strapped for tonnage especially which are some of the better builds for the Nightstar (dakka is okay, but there are multiple better options).
Let's not mention the fact you compared 3 LPL+2 Gauss to....2 UAC20s which aren't remotely similar.
Oh and there's your click bait title....

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 22 January 2025 - 07:15 PM.

[Samziel]

The Stalker is just powercreep to the Warhawk. 4 high mounted cERPPCs and 31 cDHS wrecks. Dont have much quirks but it doesnt really need any.

I found the Nightstar a bit meh. It's not bad, but could be better. BSK4 and Mako are better choices for the same weight. Though they lack JJs.

Flea is fun. I'm not a good light pilot but I got great games in it with 4 HML and max speed. Nasty backstabber with 40 points of alpha and decent range for one. And I dont think thats the best build for it.

Archer was surprisingly fun too. I dont have any Archers and I dont play much lock ons, but I got good games with LRM builds.

Edited by Samziel, 23 January 2025 - 02:15 AM.

[Drenzul]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 22 January 2025 - 07:14 PM, said:

You didn't really have factual statements either, you lead with nothing but misleading ones.
Weight is most definitely a limiting factor....for IS mechs because you can't easily fit the firepower necessary for an IS mech typically on assaults outside niche builds like laser vomit. Gauss Vomit is pretty strapped for tonnage especially which are some of the better builds for the Nightstar (dakka is okay, but there are multiple better options).
Let's not mention the fact you compared 3 LPL+2 Gauss to....2 UAC20s which aren't remotely similar.
Oh and there's your click bait title....

Ah, continuing with the same twisting and attitude. Did you read what I was replying to at all?
If you don't read what was being replied to, you miss all the context......
Also do you not realise the difference between someone stating an opinion and someone stating facts?

Then you twist what I said, we didn't compare the full weapon loadout since, surprise surprise, we
can change config. I doubt anyone doing this mech as a brawler will keep the twin gauss, which is
what we are talking about. We also didn't discuss the extra weapons on the other builds.

It would be complete nonsense to ignore the other weapons on the 2xUAC20 builds but take the full
weapon loadout on the clan nightstar.

Weight is generally less of an issue with brawlers since you aren't paying the weight premium for long ranged
weapons. Its still an advantage but you tend to hit the heat barrier before you hit the weight limit.

You have a different opinion, that is 100% fine. But don't come here acting like you are some sort of indisputable
authority and insulting anyone who may have a different opinion to you or acting like your opinion is a god given truth.
You want to have a reasonable discussion, I'm open to changing to my mind.

[AnAnachronismAlive]

Why don't you try to pick less pugnacious / bias-sounding topic-titles next time? Titles like "Why Are The New Clan Mechs So Bad?" do not leave a lot of room to brand you as a discussant interested in unprejudiced conversation ... and they are not - for the reasons stated above.

Edited by AnAnachronismAlive, 23 January 2025 - 05:03 AM.

[Drenzul]

Samziel, on 23 January 2025 - 02:13 AM, said:

The Stalker is just powercreep to the Warhawk. 4 high mounted cERPPCs and 31 cDHS wrecks. Dont have much quirks but it doesnt really need any.

I found the Nightstar a bit meh. It's not bad, but could be better. BSK4 and Mako are better choices for the same weight. Though they lack JJs.

Flea is fun. I'm not a good light pilot but I got great games in it with 4 HML and max speed. Nasty backstabber with 40 points of alpha and decent range for one. And I dont think thats the best build for it.

Archer was surprisingly fun too. I dont have any Archers and I dont play much lock ons, but I got good games with LRM builds.

Not sure on that stalker. I prefer 2 ER PP + 2 ER LLs on the SNS-ML since that gets a velocity buff and is faster and can easily fit that with a max targeting computer. It does run a bit hot through so stalker has the sustained fire advantage. I like avoiding the HSL so I can blip the PPCs, then re-aim to fire the lasers very quickly. Real shame the quirks on it weren't for the energy weapons instead of the missiles.

I tend to find that you have to blip and hide most of the time so there isn't really as much as advantage to the sustained firepower for snipers. I use that time to reposition when I'm hot since once the enemy has worked out where you are, they generally try and hide from that angle.

I can see the flea builds working more now I admit. The radar deprivation quirk is nice as is SRM ammo quirk for a very light mech.

Archer does look good, I totally agree.

AnAnachronismAlive, on 23 January 2025 - 05:03 AM, said:

Why don't you try to pick less pugnacious / bias-sounding topic-titles next time? Titles like "Why Are The New Clan Mechs So Bad?" do not leave a lot of room to brand you as a discussant interested in unprejudiced conversation ... and they are not - for the reasons stated above.

Fair point, but kinda limited in space to express a nuanced opinion in the title. I thought it would be fairly clear it was just an opinion but I'll bear that in mind for next time.

Edited by Drenzul, 23 January 2025 - 05:11 AM.

[pbiggz]

You've got a founders badge. You should not be surprised if you show up to the forums with a weird take and then get flamed for it.

[Drenzul]

pbiggz, on 23 January 2025 - 07:16 AM, said:

You've got a founders badge. You should not be surprised if you show up to the forums with a weird take and then get flamed for it.

I also stopped playing for about ten years.
Regardless its not an excuse for acting like that.

I'm happy to discuss it and be proven wrong.
Everyone but one guy has managed to come in with reasonable points and have a civil conversation.

[Void Angel]

Reasonable discussion is always preferred - however you should be aware that every time the Clans get a new thing, there are partisans on the forums that will start screaming bloody murder about it. Generally, it's the Clan partisans claiming that [insert nerf] was unwarranted and a direct attack on the poor Clans, though IS partisans exist as well. So... if you hop onto the forums with a title like "Why are all these Clan 'mechs so bad?" people are going to reasonably expect the worst. Heck, there's an "opinion about LPLs" thread which sparked just such a controversy that just petered down a couple of days ago. So, be aware of that.

The TL;DR about Clan v. IS quirk advantage is that the IS tech base is absolutely not organically balanced against the Clans - not by itself. Additionally, 'mech architecture with hit boxes and hardpoint placement matter a good bit. So, the IS gets more quirks for most of its 'mechs. Quite a few of the best 'mechs in the game, however, have pretty light quirking - and the greater majority in that category are Clan 'mechs.

Edited by Void Angel, 23 January 2025 - 10:10 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Drenzul, on 22 January 2025 - 06:52 PM, said:

Ignoring the double-tap on the UAC/20s is kinda silly through. Its kinda a big perk.
Also ignoring the fact the 2xUAC/20 only produces 12 heat, vs 27 heat for 3x LPL.
By the time you've slapped on enough heat-sinks to compensate for that you are getting seriously low on crit slots.
Or you double-tap and you've got over double the damage for 3 less heat.

This is why your argument is in bad faith. You are completely ignoring ease-of-use (hitscan vs projectiles) but also range which is a BIG deal. One of these guns has twice the optimal range (combined with hitscan makes it much easier to use at the further ranges as well). Not to mention short range on an objectively slow mech is typically a bad idea because it makes closing the gap against non-potatoes troublesome.

Shorter ranged weapon typically will offer better damage volume and/or better heat efficiency for the damage so comparing them without factoring into consideration range differences is...not great.

Regardless comparing the 2 BLC+3 ERML+2 Gauss Nightstar (which is probably one of the better builds available to it) against the 3-4 cLPL (with ERML if only running 3)+2 Gauss Clan Nightstar, I'm taking the Clan one because it's faster and has better range for similar damage profiles.

You want to talk about context, well, you conveniently left out quite a bit in your arguments so far.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 23 January 2025 - 10:18 AM.

[Drenzul]

Void Angel, on 23 January 2025 - 10:03 AM, said:

Reasonable discussion is always preferred - however you should be aware that every time the Clans get a new thing, there are partisans on the forums that will start screaming bloody murder about it. Generally, it's the Clan partisans claiming that [insert nerf] was unwarranted and a direct attack on the poor Clans, though IS partisans exist as well. So... if you hop onto the forums with a title like "Why are all these Clan 'mechs so bad?" people are going to reasonably expect the worst. Heck, there's an "opinion about LPLs" thread which sparked just such a controversy that just petered down a couple of days ago. So, be aware of that.

The TL;DR about Clan v. IS quirk advantage is that the IS tech base is absolutely not organically balanced against the Clans - not by itself. Additionally, 'mech architecture with hit boxes and hardpoint placement matter a good bit. So, the IS gets more quirks for most of its 'mechs. Quite a few of the best 'mechs in the game, however, have pretty light quirking - and the greater majority in that category are Clan 'mechs.

Yep totally agree with all that.

Its the combination of quirks + clan/IS equipment + layout/mech design. I kinda assumed everyone would understand that

[sycocys]

If I double tap cUac20 in my HBK I suspect the ghost heat and dissipation are quite similar, as the dhs count is within a few. You are getting double ghost heat, my memory from a couple days ago tells me it hits around 40%ish and would have a more or less similar dissipation rate.

On the other hand an LPL build on the clan Nightstar would have all sorts of tonnage and slots to build dissipation. Personally if I wanted to disco vomit I'd run it with 4 LPL and 19 total sinks and still have crits/tons for JJ/masc/bap (according to mech db equipment availability). LPL is pin point and hitscan as well as a significantly longer initial engagement range. Also the mech still has enough armor to put near constant fire down for a significant amount of time especially once you add in cool shot coupons.

[BlueDevilspawn]

The Dragoons mechs are quite strong by dint of Clan space magic alone. Combined with certain things like hitboxes (Stalker, Flea), bay door damage reduction (Stalker, Archer), and there are very good reasons to not have higher survival quirks. Some of the best Clan mechs have nothing.... no offensive or defensive/survival quirks. A good example is the meta fast Clan heavy ECM lasvom Timber Wolf. It has nothing, should have nothing, will get nothing.

So, with regards to the Dragoons mechs (as the cauldron member who spearheaded this pack)

Stalker - imo the strongest mech in the pack. It can run everything the IS one can and because you can stuff up to 27dhs or 30+ shs into some builds and mount max TC, it doesn't need anything. A standard 6 ERLL (which is probably the minimum amount of guns) with max TC gets you 1012m optimal trading range. IS Stalkers could already mount 4 ERPPC or 5LPL (6 with IS XL). The Clan Stalker can easily mount 6 LPL and even 6 ERPPC, though 4 with SRM bracket is much better. You can even brawl with it with 6 MPL and 4 SRM6a. cMPLs are really cold after this patch.

Nightstar - second strongest imo. Probably one of the few lore builds that actually looks good in MWO. Just drop the ERSL and arrange the internal stuff. 2 GR 3 LPL, 2 HAG30 3LPL with either DHS or SHS, 2 UAC10 and 3 LPL..... all either cold, high alpha, or good dps.

Archer - Probably the hardest one to build for, but it has "un-nerfed Clan ECM" which reduces detection ranges down to 90%. I run it with 4 MPL 4 SRM6a or 2 HLL 2 ERML 4SRM6a. A slightly more esoteric build is 2 ERLL in CT 2 LPL and 4 SRM2 for damage reduction and minor close range dps.

Flea - More survivable than IS Fleas, can run high alpha wiht 4 heavy small lasers 3 SRM4, 4 heavy mediums, 4 MPLs (lots of armor strip on head and arms). It's quirk allows for 100% radar derp with 2 skill nodes, allowing it to play stealthily.

There are plenty of strong builds with these mechs. Like anything else, if you waltz out into the open, you get nuked. Play to their strengths.

Edited by BlueDevilspawn, 23 January 2025 - 01:11 PM.