57 replies to this topic

[EmotionalSupportNPC]

Anyone shocked by the bullshark and SR nerfs?

[LordNothing]

no. the bullshark is part of the reason im in t2 now.

its also pretty standard to buff/nerf mechs based on how they actually end up performing in game.

Edited by LordNothing, 05 February 2025 - 12:41 PM.

[Green Astronaut]

Is the SR-6 HSL removal really necessary? I never see it used that way. Maybe consider making is a Medium Pulse Laser +1 instead if the concern is over giga laser vomit? Also, the SNV-C just got interesting.... Nothing else really stands out.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ttly, on 05 February 2025 - 08:15 AM, said:

They absolutely are! Yes, UAC10s are (two-shot) burst weapons and you could say aren't "directly comparable" but really, unless you're shooting something that is mobile enough to the point that the burst duration (of 0.11s each apparently, so a doubletap is a 0.22s burst duration for 20 damage) can throw off the accuracy (i.e light/fast medium) it's hard to make a case for them, I mean double the damage for only a ton more?

UAC10s are worse than AC10s, hands down. The only reason you don't see AC10s is because the AC5 + LPPC builds are better, if AC5s were worse, you would 100% see more AC10s all the sudden. UAC10s aren't even a part of the equation. cAC10s are a bit different than UAC10s as well, for one they are much more heat efficient in a tech base that can also typically mount more heat sinks and considering they are so light they can also be boated more easily and with other weapons (mostly plasma). So yeah, your comparison is pretty awful.

UAC5s are a bit more comparable, but are typically not liked for the same reason most UACs aren't liked, jams can make weapons really inconsistent.

Ttly, on 05 February 2025 - 08:15 AM, said:

Well for starters its average DPS (taking account of jams) is only as much as an UAC2 more or less, which it shares a ballistic hardpoint and range profile with, and not to mention 2UAC2s (which would also almost match the tonnage of 1Gauss) pretty much beat it even more in that department, though obviously not all vehicles has the luxury of being able to afford two hardpoints on this.

It hurts that I even have to bother explaining this to you, but that's kind of the trade-off for upfront damage. If you have more upfront damage, for the same tonnage a weapon that does less should have more DPS/range. This is stuff the devs at FASA learned just with one iteration of MW4 when ERLL and ERLPL had the same DPS per ton but different upfront damage so there was zero reason to use ERLPLs over ERLL. They corrected that with Mercs. I'll be sure to let all my fellow comp players that they are all stupid for taking cGauss over cUAC2s though (comparison honestly is probably worse for the IS side of things actually).

Also, it's worth mentioning that the Gauss charge-up time isn't just creating a skill floor, it adds a bit of a limiter to situations where the Gauss is usable (somewhat similar to lock time for lock-ons). For example if you happen to be see a light in the distance that you weren't expecting and have too narrow of a time to be able to shoot it, the Gauss charge-up means you simply won't be able flick to do damage compared to ERPPCs or lasers. It also makes it a bit harder to use in full-on brawls. It's not different than why people avoid the R8 Revolver in Counterstrike (though it fires as soon as it reaches full charge, which makes it a bit more unwieldy at times compared to the Gauss). Either way, Gauss isn't hurting that much and it has never really needed charge-up removed. Now if you want to talk maybe it needs a shorter charge-up time like Light Gauss or maybe SBG needs a longer charge-up, those are probably better conversations to have, but flat out removal is goofy IMO.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 05 February 2025 - 03:07 PM.

[Hat Trick]

Valdarion Silarius, on 05 February 2025 - 09:22 AM, said:

Gauss rifle charge up times was one of the worst balancing decisions considering that this is the only Mechwarrior title to introduce it with the mentality of being a "pro player snapshot weapon". They are incredibly unfun to play on a casual level. It boggles my mind why TAG (on a side note) still does not have a toggle to this day when people can run a macro in the background to keep it running constantly. I would imagine that you can run a macro to counter the charge time.

I seriously love the changes that the Cauldron did at the very beginning that removed some of the horrendous balancing decisions that Chris implemented back in the day, but now I'm starting to see Data's pov on where the game is going. The days of MWO being a popular competitive e-sport has long sailed. I think the Cauldron should look into some of the balancing decisions from outside the Discord if they want longer player base retention from both newer players and returning players.

I'm assuming you didn't play back in 2013/2014 before gauss charge was implemented so i'm gonna fill you in on a little secret.
Gauss was more overpowered than you would ever believe, bordering gamebreaking, so adding the gauss charge mechanic was actually one of the BEST things they've done for this game. Gauss ERPPC poptarts with no gauss charge time and no ghost heat were the best mechs in the game hands down and during todays meta they would be even stronger no doubt.

[Tarl Cabot]

Hat Trick, on 05 February 2025 - 04:00 PM, said:

I'm assuming you didn't play back in 2013/2014 before gauss charge was implemented so i'm gonna fill you in on a little secret.
Gauss was more overpowered than you would ever believe, bordering gamebreaking, so adding the gauss charge mechanic was actually one of the BEST things they've done for this game. Gauss ERPPC poptarts with no gauss charge time and no ghost heat were the best mechs in the game hands down and during todays meta they would be even stronger no doubt.

Sorry the highlanders/victors scratched the paint job on your short-range Atlas that was wading through open terrain. And it was only 35pts of damage, ie, 1GR + 2ERPPC, no quirks, just the generic Skill Tree that everyone had to complete to get that extra module for "quirks"

The real issue was how Jump Jets had been setup. Most Mechs only needed to equip 1, at the most 2 JJ to get a quick pop-up.. And the only jump capable Assaults, Highlander 90t Assaults that was 2-tons/JJ for the Class 1. Victors came in at 80t so they had Class 2 for 1ton jets. No heavies like the Clan's Night Gyr. There was the few Cataphracts, but they were either really slow to fit GR+ERPPC in the torso, or in the very low arm-mounted locations. And no LFE back then, which was not added until July 2017 with the major technology updates that patch.

Sadly PGI hit BOTH weapons and JJ with the bat at the same time. Charge to GR, changed up the weapon speeds to desync them, neutered JJ across the board, even when all JJ were equipped, JJ screen shakes, etc.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Hat Trick, on 05 February 2025 - 04:00 PM, said:

I'm assuming you didn't play back in 2013/2014 before gauss charge was implemented so i'm gonna fill you in on a little secret.
Gauss was more overpowered than you would ever believe, bordering gamebreaking, so adding the gauss charge mechanic was actually one of the BEST things they've done for this game. Gauss ERPPC poptarts with no gauss charge time and no ghost heat were the best mechs in the game hands down and during todays meta they would be even stronger no doubt.

You are referring to the days when it was only IS vs IS I'm going to assume. I used to run a glass cannon Jagermech with dual gauss rifles. I never felt I was overpowered because the gauss rifles were fragile weapon systems along with the Jagermech being fragile as well. They were strong back in the day, but they felt much more satisfying to use as a sniper weapon. Ironically I felt that the game was more balanced when it was IS vs IS.

[1453 R]

Gauss rifles deliver high pinpoint damage at exceptional velocity across dramatic range for negligible heat. Their ONLY drawback is their significant equip weight, which is ameliorated by the fact that they require absolutely no supporting or secondary equipment beyond ammunition. It's why the entire Gausslasers archetype exists, and why Gauss+PPC is dominant at the top end in every single meta where it's been allowed the remotest wiggle room since PPCs, much like lasers, have relatively minimal equip burden but require extensive heat sinking and secondary support. Mix the two weapons and they're more efficient together than either could ever be alone.PPCs or lasers give Gauss builds the ability to trade heat for DPS, and Gauss rifles give energy vomit builds the ability to fire and do significant damage while heat capped.

I understand that some folks just can't with the charge mechanic. That the weapon feels clunky, unresponsive, and unf/unsatisfying to use. They want that click-boom from MW5. But MW5 also demonstrated that Gauss rifles with no charge delay are basically superweapons. Once you get that Nightstar, and/or start seeing Gauss rifles in the shops? There's no real reason to use any other ballistic weapon.

And no, cranking the cooldown on the things sky-high won't actually matter because MWO isn't a game where DPS is king. DPS is and can be very important, but this game in specific is one where the ability to fit a given amount of damage into a single half-second window of opportunity is in many ways more critical at the higher end, and a Gauss rifle with a seven second, ten second, or even longer cooldown and no charge time can still slam fifteen extra damage into a single click. there are 'Mechs today that could effortlessly fit two Gauss Rifles and three PPCs into a single salvo if Gauss rifles lost their charge delay and all HSL scaling was removed, and being able to plant 50+ damage precisely and exactly where you want it in a single instant is vastly stronger than being able to dump a hundred damage in the general direction of the other guy's overall self over the space of two and a half seconds.

What should be happening is that Gauss rifles should be generating tremendous heat when fired, because anyone who knows anything about magnetic cannons knows that the primary limiter in the technology is we don't have materials that can withstand the outrageous heat the system produces, either via friction with the rails on railguns or via induction heating in coilguns. They have the same energy-draw load as a DEW, but all the friction heat of a ballistic weapon as well. That wouldn't be BattleTech-y though, so here we are. Something needs to keep the weapons something approximating in line, and that thing is charge delay.


And frankly, given how often people grouse about Evil Cheating baby-eating Meta Tryhard SNYPIRZ on this board? I fail to see why anyone would want chargeless Gauss.

[kalashnikity]

LordNothing, on 05 February 2025 - 12:39 PM, said:

no. the bullshark is part of the reason im in t2 now.

its also pretty standard to buff/nerf mechs based on how they actually end up performing in game.

IMHO quirks are mostly to compensate for mechs with poor geometry and hardpoint placement, so frankly I'm surprised the Bullshark has any quirks at all.

[Meep Meep]

Quirks are also used to counter certain global nerfs like the clan heatsink nerf for mechs it overly negatively effects like many clan lights which got a heat dissipation quirk. The new clan flea just got one and that's all it needs due to clan space majik weapons lower fittings.

[Qui-Gon Jinn]

The SR is getting nerfed imagine that. The caldron has nerfed assaults and their weapons to the point there unusable. No one will disagree that lights are OP, and that’s why so many have and are quitting. The cauldron has stated they have no intention of balance. RIP

[GiraffeOfWisdom]

Why are they nerfing the osiris and COMD03?

No one ever plays those things and I haven't heard anyone complain about them.

Are geriatric snipers in this game really just that bad that they had to nerf random lights no one cares about?

[1453 R]

Qui-Gon Jinn, on 08 February 2025 - 04:24 PM, said:

The SR is getting nerfed imagine that. The caldron has nerfed assaults and their weapons to the point there unusable. No one will disagree that lights are OP, and that’s why so many have and are quitting. The cauldron has stated they have no intention of balance. RIP

BREAKING NEWS: "Lights OP", Says Under-Engined Assault Jock w/Sketchy Aim, "Cauldron Hates Us!" Cited as Reason. Main story at 8!

[LordNothing]

GiraffeOfWisdom, on 09 February 2025 - 07:28 AM, said:

Why are they nerfing the osiris and COMD03?

No one ever plays those things and I haven't heard anyone complain about them.

Are geriatric snipers in this game really just that bad that they had to nerf random lights no one cares about?

thats actually a good little medium laser (sl get range quirks but its an sl) hill humper. its ability to repeatedly drop 25 damage, thanks to its duration quirk, in short duration bursts and dodge retaliation with masc was what gave it its charm. its a zombie elf that is very happy to see you. now with the removal of most of the duration quirks, its just another laser squirrel. at least buff the sl range quirks to compensate.

Edited by LordNothing, 09 February 2025 - 10:22 AM.

[Qui-Gon Jinn]

1453 R, on 09 February 2025 - 09:07 AM, said:

BREAKING NEWS: "Lights OP", Says Under-Engined Assault Jock w/Sketchy Aim, "Cauldron Hates Us!" Cited as Reason. Main story at 8!

When you give your game to the neighborhood there gonna mess it up.

[1453 R]

Qui-Gon Jinn, on 09 February 2025 - 02:02 PM, said:

When you give your game to the neighborhood there gonna mess it up.

Buddy, the "I died to a light 'Mech, and I weigh three times what they do so I should be GUARANTEED to win! This is boo sheet and I blame the Evil Shadow Lightmech Cabal!" nonsense was old in 2015. The Cauldron is fine, and nobody who actually pilots light 'Mechs will buy a word of 'LYTES OP!' Buy a light 'Mech, run it for ten games, tell us what happens. We'll wait.

[Meep Meep]

Lights op till you meet someone that can aim. Then its lights pop.

[dario03]

BlueDevilspawn, on 04 February 2025 - 09:36 AM, said:

The Osiris is designed as the machine pistol / Uzi of mechs.... high max dps but low sustain and little survival. It's suppose to run in, drop a lot of hurt in 5 seconds, and run out or overheat/get zapped. In the hands of a good pilot and high level play (which is what we balance to) it's very strong.
The all body structure means all components get that structure which includes the REAR torsos. So, the net should be slightly higher survival on the torsos (2) but halved on the legs. As I just said the Osiris' survival depends on its agility/speed, you'll want to leg it.

1453 R, on 04 February 2025 - 10:16 AM, said:

...

Also, good to know about the Osiris, BDS. I thought the torso sections shared the same pool of structure, was unaware the "full body" terminology meant they get to double-dip on the torso structure bonus. That's useful information. Honestly now I want to go review my Osiris designs and see what they're doing, heh. I love piloting those things, but I'm absolutely terrible at it.

Ttly, on 04 February 2025 - 08:16 PM, said:

It's still a nerf overall you ask me, the legs only gets +5 with the change when it has +10 before, and it's a heavy jumper of a vehicle too while at it, so fall damage is even more of an actual threat to it even with its -f.damage% quirk as damage pointswise it's still a lot to them, not to mention people that actually know to aim for legs.

Unless Blue has heard something different I think he is thinking of full body armor quirk. That probably gives front and back hp bonus but last I heard structure does not.
Though even if it does I would agree its still a nerf overall.