11 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

Seem like the quirks are reversed versus what the hardpoints are.

Feel like it would make more sense for the ac20 to be on the mech with the singular slot and the general ballistics would make more sense on the mech with 3 ballistic hardpoints.

The -4H canon was supposed to be ac10, the 4G was supposed to be guass according to sarna, so neither sets of quirks align there and it does make sense to have a ac20 centered variant but its kind of weird that it would be the one with 3 ballistic slots.

Can understand there might be and argument to be made about the additional energy hardpoints with ac20 but due to weight/slot requirements they'd have to be smalls so I don't think that'd be any major advantage.

On the other side if the generic quirks were on the 4G it would open up some interesting options, especially with the addition of light cannons.

Just some food for thought since PGI doesn't deal with any of the quirks or balancing any more and there's too many to give them all a proper look when the guys that do seem to be more hyper focused on other mechs.

[Samziel]

I think you're looking at the wrong 4G in Sarna. The base variant of the Hunchback is the 4G with an AC20 (read the datasheet). The next 4G is the prototype gauss variant at the bottom of the list. The nearly 500 years newer one.

Iirc AC20+5ML Hunchback 4H was the build used by everyone before quirks were introduced. It is still usable, but it no longer obsoletes the 4G like it used to.

Edited by Samziel, 12 February 2025 - 12:31 AM.

[sycocys]

I didn't see any other 4G listing, but I have no problem accepting that's correct in canon.

It still doesn't make much sense to have the variant with 3 ballistic hardpoints to have the ac20 quirk focus, while the one with a singular hardpoint has generic and uac quirks - iirc the canon for that model is an ac10 so even the uac quirk doesn't make much sense.

[TheMadTypist]

The Hunchback was the first medium in the game, and the hardpoints they were given reflect that. Quirks came much later, and gradually. The 4G had the big gun stock, thus, it had more of a ballistic focus in the quirkless world, and so more hardpoints. The 4H had additional lasers and a smaller ballistic, so it didn’t get as many. That was how variants were differentiated then.

The modern quirks don’t always have anything to do with stock load outs, but rather with common player builds or builds they’d like to encourage.

[Samziel]

sycocys, on 12 February 2025 - 07:27 AM, said:

I didn't see any other 4G listing, but I have no problem accepting that's correct in canon.

It still doesn't make much sense to have the variant with 3 ballistic hardpoints to have the ac20 quirk focus, while the one with a singular hardpoint has generic and uac quirks - iirc the canon for that model is an ac10 so even the uac quirk doesn't make much sense.

It has AC20 focus because original quirks were made to reflect their stock builds like TheMadTypist said. I also think the UAC jam chance was a recent addition to 4H.

Nothing is preventing you from using other weapons in them. Sure, 4G is quite heavily quirked to AC20, because its a fun little niche it has, but those general quirks are not too bad for multiple small ballistics either. 4H has much more general quirks and its decent with AC10 or AC20 too.

Edited by Samziel, 12 February 2025 - 10:35 PM.

[sycocys]

TheMadTypist, on 12 February 2025 - 12:32 PM, said:

The modern quirks don’t always have anything to do with stock load outs, but rather with common player builds or builds they’d like to encourage.

That's kind of what I'm getting at there boss, the quirks for the 4G specifically aren't reflective of its hardpoints, just as you said the build that was most commonly around before quirks and the release of new weapons.

It could be argued that the 4H is closer to being reflective due to its additional energy points, but one versus the other as the two ballistic non-hero variants in their current state the quirks seem to be backwards.

I'm sure there's quite a number of other mechs that have been quirked/over-quirked into particular builds that at the same time take no account of newer weapon systems, especially the early line mechs. Quirking into builds, imo, should never been allowed, its just worse when that methodology also discounts the hardpoints of a mech.

[1453 R]

"Quirking into builds" is half the point of quirks. A balance must be struck between generically useful quirks for every loadout and quirks that encourage/create specific builds that cannot otherwise be played, or which suck to be played.

The HBK-4G is the only 'mech in the game that can reasonably use a single standard AC/20, due to getting what amounts to two AC/20's DPS out of it. The quirks allow it to shine with its original canonical loadout of "giant funkoff gun plus some sidecar lasers nobody cares about", which is a configuration that only it can do in MWO. Configurations that take advantage of the extra hardpoints don't get the same bonuses because they have extra hardpoints, their 'quirks' are "Gets More Guns". The 4H's quirks are "gets an Actually Threatening number of lasers alongside its single cannon." Making the 4H the AC/20 expert devalues both 'Mechs, since no modern fit for the 4H is going to use an AC/20 and also the STD engine it would take to pack the AC/20 and the extra two lasers into the 'Mech, and the 4G doesn't have the weight for massed multi-cannons. You lose the AC/10+beams schtick of the 4H and the rapid-fire AC/20 schtick of the current 4G, for no real reason.

There's no reason to switch the two, when their current loadouts and Quirk selections work just fine.

[crazytimes]

1453 R, on 13 February 2025 - 08:04 AM, said:

The HBK-4G is the only 'mech in the game that can reasonably use a single standard AC/20, due to getting what amounts to two AC/20's DPS out of it. .

Might want to check the Shadowhawk Grey Death. It runs almost the same build, trading armour and range for jumpjets and hit boxes.

I mean, it's not great, but in terms of feasible single AC20 builds it goes alright.

[East Indy]

As mentioned, the additional hardpoints go all the way back to the beginning.

Today, they wouldn't make sense and best left off. The whole point of a 4G is the 20. And really, for vastly different build approaches? Variants, quirked appropriately. This game can't be cool and also be about somebody being too clever by half with machine guns on a 4G. MWO's least interesting phase occurred when a balance designer misunderstood the purpose of variants and papered over everything with wimpy, generic quirks.

[sycocys]

crazytimes, on 13 February 2025 - 05:22 PM, said:

Might want to check the Shadowhawk Grey Death. It runs almost the same build, trading armour and range for jumpjets and hit boxes.

The entire Shadowhawk line has not very good st/ct hitboxes unless you want to node into twitch shooter which makes them slightly better. Don't know why they chose to make the ct so much bigger proportionally, but they did.
Even the large shoulder mount HBK's you can roll damage off to the side torsos.



---
The 4G, with the newer weapon systems can very easily run triple light AC5 or AC2, which if it wasn't over-quirked into a particular weapon system could be quite effective given the fact that HBKs actually have well designed hitboxes for high time engagement time brawling.

[1453 R]

It's not really overquirked into that one particular weapon system, though? If you use LACs instead of an AC/20, you get 15% global cooldown, 15% global range, and a very nice 25% velocity quirk that helps with midrange gun duels.

The thing you're overlooking is that the triple LAC/5 or triple LAC/2 builds don't need the help. Well, triple LAC/2 might because the LAC/2 is kinda donkey butt, but the LAC/5 build has all three cannons very tightly clustered together almost directly in line with the cockpit for Maximum Hillbaggery, on a chassis that you yourself state has well designed hitboxes. That build, triple LAC/5 with three medium lasers, hits 12.9 DPS in my MechDB mockup, while the single AC/20 w/lasers build with all the GigaQuirks for AC/20s hits...12.7 DPS.

So even with the bonus 25% AC/20-specific cooldown, the single giant gun only just barely almost keeps up with three mildly quirked LAC/5s. Which have nearly double the optimal range and even with the +25% AC/20-specific cooldown, cycle almost half a second faster than the AC/20 while dealing three quarters of the AC/20's damage in a single trigger pull.

The AC/20 GigaQuirks allow the HBK-4G to do what the HBK-4G is infamous for doing - punching things with a big stonkoff gun. The builds that use the extra two hardpoints have the quirk "Gain Two Additional Hardpoints". 'Mech functioning as intended.

Edited by 1453 R, 17 February 2025 - 09:29 AM.

[Hawk819]

Which variant has the Gauss that's a 4G. Cause all read on the list was 5SG was the only one with a Gauss Rifle and ECM.