52 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 27 February 2025 - 07:42 AM, said:

Kinna what I meant by juking at the right moment. I know what you mean, tryin'a land damage on stuff like Fleas from 500+ out is usually up to piloting error on the Flea's part more than aim on the shooter's part because they can decide to simply not be where the pain is going.

The issue will be on where the line is decided to be between "acceptably evasive" and "egregious." Stutter-stepping Fleas and Vulcans are held to be egregious. A'ight. What about Black Lanners? Hellfires? Shadow Cats? 'Mechs that aren't as spindly and nimbly-bimbly as Vulcans or Fleas, and which Div A Ultracomps can effortlessly hit precisely where they want to hit with 100% accuracy if L33t J00ks aren't involved?

Ferroblast is honestly a great example - it has the speed of a 30-tonner with the mobility profile of a 65-tonner, and as I've joked to my circle of buddies? Ferroblast's full name is Ms. Ferro "In-Over-Her-Head" McBlast due to her extreme propensity for MASCercharging into a situation her agility profile is not prepared to get her back out of. Are we prepared for half the M.A.S.C. 'Mechs in the game to join Ferroblast in that tendency due to losing too much agility to get back out of bad situations their theoretically heightened movement speed allows them to get into?

To be clear, my problem with MASC is twofold:

• Allowing stutter-stepping is just bad, cases where you solely rely on your target to make mistakes to play against is typically something that has **** counter-play. It feels bad to play against and typically can be exacerbated when there's a skill level imbalance between the light and other mech. This is part of the whole reason why "lights OP" has been a thing since the beginning, but MASC exacerbates that especially since agility as a whole is much higher than it has historically been.
  
• MASC's benefit on the bigger end of the spectrum is 100% the speed boost with some minor benefit of the mobility boosts. That's really the reason that Hellfires, Skolls, Overcharges, and Executioners have been so consistent in the meta. Their ability to reposition is a huge deal. To be clear, it's apparently undervalued on the lighter end too because the when I'm thinking of drop decks for comp or just regular play, MASC can give you the speed of a faster mech without sacrificing as much firepower because realistically you aren't always moving, so flat speed isn't always as valuable.

The latter isn't really part of the discussion but it really should be IMO because that's part of the big shift in 2021 that IMO ridiculously buffed MASC.


As for the BLanner, TBH, the potency of MASC and the return of the BESM since roughly 2018-2019 has boosted the BLanner past where it honestly ever should've been in the meta. It's the heaviest of mediums and with an overly massive engine without any JJs. The fact it's been as relevant this far in the meta with as little quirks as it has is telling IMO of the problems with the meta (particularly slower mediums/heavies). The SCat on the other hand has been a top tier medium for a few years now, people have been asking for nerfs to it since at least CS2024 playoffs if not longer where it's been an auto-pick for a while. People just like putting awful builds on it which is likely why its QP stats aren't telling, it doesn't have a low skill floor like say the BJ-1X.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 27 February 2025 - 08:24 AM.

[1453 R]

I'm honestly surprised to hear a lot of that. I was under the impression Hellfires were largely a forgotten chassis, I never see them in the Mosh Pit unless I'm in one of mine. Ditto Lanners. Shadow Cats are everywhere of course, but they're one of the game's most classic and timeless Meme 'Mechs, always piloted by some dingus with no idea what the word "Aggression" means trying to play pattycake games with peeps or beam lasers a million miles away from the fight.

Realistically, it feels like the speed boost should be M.A.S.C.'s primary function, with agility as a handy benefit but not the star of the show the way it often is. I can agree that stutter stepping isn't really desirable as a primary defensive tactic, though I remain concerned that 'Mechs for which it is their only real viable defensive tactic will fall out the bottom once M.A.S.C. gets hit. Especially when the Cauldron's opinion of such worries was "we don't care". Like...a'ight. This isn't like the ERLL thing where a megabeam Stone Rhino will be just fine because it's still a Stone bloody Rhino and losing half a point of alpha per laser is actually factually nothing in the Mosh. A Flea without the ability to juke enemy fire is a dead Flea, and honestly 'Mechs like the Lanner and Shadow Cat aren't far behind.

I just hope the Cauldron's ready to walk back "we don't give a fat frog fart" if these 'mechs start badly underperforming once the nerf goes through.

Edited by 1453 R, 27 February 2025 - 08:38 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 27 February 2025 - 08:32 AM, said:

I just hope the Cauldron's ready to walk back "we don't give a fat frog fart" if these 'mechs start badly underperforming once the nerf goes through.

I think the big thing was it doesn't make sense to compensate immediately with a MASC nerf. You're trying to predict which mechs are hurt most by the nerf itself which is a bit of a fool's errand. It's better to hit them with the nerf and see where things land and then buff.

Hopefully given the dropping of the Fire Moth, if the nerf does impact the Flea, the Flea is changed to be the IS equivalent of the Fire Moth since it's speed was capped a bit low originally because of the hit reg issue instead of the accel/decel on top of the speed.

[1453 R]

I do get that, and that's more what I was asking. Not "will these 'Mechs be buffed to compensate the loss of M.A.S.C. in the same patch M.A.S.C. dies?" but "is the Cauldron aware these changes could potentially hurt these 'mechs way more than just a 'gentle nudge' and do they have ideas for how to proceed if the death of M.A.S.C. ends up rendering these 'Mechs less usable than they should be?"

Because you're also right - 'Mech agility is higher than it's ever been, really. I remember when the Clans dropped and the Dire Whale earned that name - its agility was so terrible that heavy 'Mechs could easily outflank and outmaneuver it the way light 'Mechs usually do. It was so bad I sold my non-(I) Whales after stripping them of their stuff, and it took the release of the DWF-C in the Warden Pack to get me back in the danged things. To this day I keep my 'off' (non-(S)) DWF-C in So8 to get the 10% turnspeed quirk to combine with maximum Anchor Turn and Torso Speed to catch people by surprise with a DWF that isn't as sluggish as they think.

All of which has the knock-on effect of making light 'mech lives vastly harder. Their targets are better able to respond to their attacks, it's much harder to keep in their blind spots, their targets are carrying more firepower than ever before, and while light 'Mechs are also carrying more firepower than ever before, the delta in light 'Mech firepower gains is vastly smaller than the delta in heavy/assault 'mech firepower gains. A light 'mech cannot reasonably engage most heavy 'Mechs in the same way they engage assault 'mechs, when in previous balance states of the game attacking a heavy 'Mech worked more like attacking an assault 'Mech now does.

The margins that allow lights to exist and do work grow thinner every time a Fatbro gets an agility buff, and frankly Fatbros are already vastly over-dominant in the game and have been for many years too long.

[Tiy0s]

I am prepared for some mechs to become too weak after a MASC nerf. MASC is the strongest piece of equipment in the game(an argument can be made for second strongest) and almost any mech that has it finds itself limited in many other aspects to maintain balance. If we nerf MASC, then those limitations remain but MASC may not be as dominant as it once was before. In that case, many mechs who relied on MASC as a crutch may need buffs in other ways and that is fine by me. It is not an end of the world scenario, some mechs are always stronger or weaker than other mechs and life goes on. The balance is never ending and always evolving as long as the game is.

There is a discrepancy between performance and healthiness of a mech in the current meta. How a mech performs and how healthy it is for the game are two different factors don't always correlate with each other.

Take, for example, a perfect poptart. A mech that could, every 30 seconds, poke, hit 20 damage perfectly, and get back in cover all in half a second. Shooting this mech back would be all but impossible. But in a 15 minute quick play match, at most it can do 600 damage. Performance wise, this mech would be within all acceptable margins. Game health wise, this mech would ruin the enjoyment of all players opposing it and would be incredibly unhealthy for the game as a whole. This example is hyperbolic but it should help explain the issues MASC lights being able to juke shots via stutter stepping introduces to the healthiness of the game without necessarily making them look OP in the end game performance.

Much to my disappointment, there are even members of Cauldron who do not understand this.

Mechs like the FLE-17 and PIR-D may not be seen constantly doing 1,000 damage matches in quick play like some of the other mechs that we are aiming to nerf in this patch. But that does not change the fact that their current capabilities are unhealthy for the game and need to be pulled in.

[1453 R]

I understand and concur, and you've addressed my primary concern. To be perfectly clear, I completely agree that allowing stutter-stepping to the degree that Fleas, Vulcans, Piranhas, and the like could achieve was not desirable for MWO and needs to be reined back. It's not the way those 'Mechs should be defending themselves and playing. As you say, not healthy for the game.

Hopefully I'm just being a Wendy Worrywart and everything turns out fine. I've just also been spending a lot of my recent MWO time in light 'Mechs, and the absolute crack-fueled paranoia required to do even remotely well in the durned things is not healthy for me, hueh. People who haven't spent a lot of time in lights, especially knife-range lights, really do not understand how freaking on you have to be to play those things and not be a Disgrace To Team. It's not like dropping in a Rhino or a Bane or a Marauder of whichever sort or a Stalker, where you can just kinda slapchop through the match and not really care and still generally do just fine by sheer dint of dealing fifty to eighty damage every time you pull the trigger. If you aren't running like a supercomputer every time you're out in an Osiris or a Fire Moth or a Cheetah or anything else much below fifty tons, you're gonna get turned into Mardi Gras confetti with twenty whole damage to your name within thirty seconds of the match starting - and even if you ARE on, you can wind up being a twenty-damage loser through no fault of your own through sheer dogdung luck.

It's rough, and losing any of the margin that lets Normies like me exist in 'Mechs below eighty tons feels abrasive even when I know it's healthier for the game that way. If M.A.S.C. nerfs let the Cauldron relax some of the limits on the smaller 'Mechs, that'd be awesome. Light 'mech drivers have to work twice as hard for half the score of any other weight class; one Bane shoots twice and generates more damage and matchscore than a Fire Moth can generate in over a solid minute of continuous fire.

Edited by 1453 R, 27 February 2025 - 12:50 PM.

[GreyNovember]

Tiy0s, on 27 February 2025 - 12:28 PM, said:

Mechs like the FLE-17 and PIR-D may not be seen constantly doing 1,000 damage matches in quick play like some of the other mechs that we are aiming to nerf in this patch. But that does not change the fact that their current capabilities are unhealthy for the game and need to be pulled in.

Very much sounds like how LRMs / Lockon weapons in general are treated.

Though, a counterpoint? There's been a LOT of builds opening themselves up and adapting to the problem of "Fast small mech". Streaks, close range weapons, being generally more mobile, and just not being alone and letting those mechs shine.

One could uncharitably call it "warping" the game around it unhealthily, or, if you're feeling more generous, forcing the game to evolve instead of stagnating.

Edited by GreyNovember, 27 February 2025 - 04:11 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

GreyNovember, on 27 February 2025 - 04:11 PM, said:

Very much sounds like how LRMs / Lockon weapons in general are treated.

Actually yes, in ye olden days before maintenance mode, "lights OP" threads were probably as numerous as "LRMs OP" threads despite both not seeing real usage/impact in upper tiers. The reasons for both being that way were different but this is one of those things that SHOULD be balanced for QP as they are symptoms of larger issues. Typical balance concerns like a mech overperforming others is less a concern for QP because the bigger imbalances in QP typically stem from tonnage differences, skill imbalances, organization level, and just mismatch of builds for a team more so than something being more powerful than the rest.

[sycocys]

Tiy0s, on 27 February 2025 - 12:28 PM, said:

This example is hyperbolic but it should help explain the issues MASC lights being able to juke shots via stutter stepping introduces to the healthiness of the game without necessarily making them look OP in the end game performance.

Much to my disappointment, there are even members of Cauldron who do not understand this.

Mechs legitimately "juking" or placing themselves to dodge shots really isn't a problem.

I suspect there has long been an issue with some mechs using masc to exploit hitreg mechanics in hsr to tank double-triple or more damage than that mech has armor to take. I would also suspect this has been long known and utilized by Cauldron members and their units, and wasn't a problem until there was a new (probably more widely exposed than they wanted) wave of players against them starting to take advantage of masc mechanics and exploit it against them.

[Void Angel]

BlueDevilspawn, on 24 February 2025 - 11:24 AM, said:

the rear armor/survival bug

Is that why people are having trouble merking Firemoths? Is there a workaround?

[BlueDevilspawn]

Void Angel, on 01 March 2025 - 08:20 AM, said:

Is that why people are having trouble merking Firemoths? Is there a workaround?

Well the bug is that the structure bonus is also counted as armor bonus (but we solved it for March patch). It won’t help anytime someone is backshotting a Fire Moth, but only that. I’ve nuked Fire Moths just fine from the front (and been nuked from the front and back myself if the alpha is big enough). The best way is still to leg them with ppfld or lasers. FYI the Roughneck, Enforcer, and Osiris also currently have this structure quirk and therefore extra back armor. It will also be corrected in March patch.

[SolCrusher]

What about removing MASC completely and change it to Triple Strength Myomer ( i know meant for melee combat, we don't have that so use the "Tech" for other enhancements.)

TSM does this:

Only while running hot (75%+) Provides (5%) speed increase , (15%) enhance the torso turning, (15%) enhances hill climb, and (15%) enhance anchor turn.

Make it a global upgrade much like Double Heat Sinks and do across the board for all mechs.

[Void Angel]

BlueDevilspawn, on 01 March 2025 - 12:15 PM, said:

Well the bug is that the structure bonus is also counted as armor bonus (but we solved it for March patch). It won’t help anytime someone is backshotting a Fire Moth, but only that. I’ve nuked Fire Moths just fine from the front (and been nuked from the front and back myself if the alpha is big enough). The best way is still to leg them with ppfld or lasers. FYI the Roughneck, Enforcer, and Osiris also currently have this structure quirk and therefore extra back armor. It will also be corrected in March patch.

Sweet. That explains a few things, thanks.