6 replies to this topic

[Ttly]

So I was playing stuff like Piranha, Fleas, Locust, and even some 25ts (COM/MLX) the other week and so and I can't help but came up with thought.

I mean hey, here comes the Fire Moth with similiar loadout (from energyboat Fleas, SRM Commandos, MG Piranha, LMGs, etc. just nothing like the UAC2+JJs like MLX-D I guess) but with stronger quirks either in armor or weapon on top of its speed.

Now granted, the Fire Moth does have a silhouette almost as big as the likes of Kit Fox and a gimped MASC+Agility (compared to the Flea or Decadion) as a downside, and an overweight engine (compared to the other 20ts) to boot, but really?

I mean the energy Fire Moths (4HML+ECM and or the 9HeavySmall Fire Moths [pretty much the best Firemoth builds apparently]) alone pretty much just says:
"Hey, remember the FLE-17, FLE-20, PIR-D[Decadion], PIR-2 and the PIR-3? Well we're fine with a similar loadout BUT with more range, speed, and hitpoints!"

Disregarding that those Piranhas have too much hardpoint for their tonnage to use more than micro lasers+smalls (10-12 micro lasers are still rather pitiful by the way) if they want to use them all in the first place which ends up with them at best matching the heavy laser Fire Moth's damage with a lot less range and speed, and the Fleas while still solid on their own are also speedcreeped regardless.

The FMT-B and K (MG Firemoths) as well, similar case, with the LCT-1V/3V, PIR-1/A, FLE-19(MG builds) even the likes of MLX-G/A and ACH-E along with JVN-11F and SDR-5K (though it obviously lack JJs) and to some degree the Pirates' Bane without stealth armor.

SRM Fire Moths, to the SRM Locust and Commandos, though the COM does have the Stealth SRM variant for what it's worth.

I get that premium (until it's available for cbux months after release) vehicles need to make money hence that they're somewhat overtuned (hey don't deny this, it's a reoccuring pattern and you know it) to entice buyers.
But at the same time it's been months after it came out and turns out even with all its advantages it's also not really that overperforming? At least not outside the energy builds.

So rather than nerfing it, why not buff those other vehicles? The 12MG Piranha(PIR-1) for sure could use ammo quirks to let it carry a bigger laser while still having a worthwhile amount of MG ammo at least among other things.

Edited by Ttly, 09 May 2025 - 07:30 PM.

[GreyNovember]

The only advantage I can feel from moths is the ability to shake off pursuers and rapidly relocate. ECM is mandatory for HML lest you get pinged, and you're trading heat for ECM when you run HSL.

Which is an amazing advantage, to be fair. Dictating when and where a fight happens stops me from going insane piloting slower chassis and rolling the dice on what happens before I get to the effective decision making part.

So making other 20 tonners specifically better at dog fighting through durability, cooling, or something'd be great.

[Ttly]

GreyNovember, on 09 May 2025 - 07:14 PM, said:

The only advantage I can feel from moths is the ability to shake off pursuers and rapidly relocate. ECM is mandatory for HML lest you get pinged, and you're trading heat for ECM when you run HSL.

Which is an amazing advantage, to be fair. Dictating when and where a fight happens stops me from going insane piloting slower chassis and rolling the dice on what happens before I get to the effective decision making part.

So making other 20 tonners specifically better at dog fighting through durability, cooling, or something'd be great.

Speaking of HMLs, it's not like they're that great on their own either.
It took the Fire Moth and the JennerIIC-2 with all their quirks (and mobility) for them to be decent.
Or the HBKIIC-Deathwish with its 5HML+AC build and playing like the IS Hunchback if it doesn't have as much armor quirk.

Anyway I'm not personally a fan of direct durability buffs.
That's how you get IS Orions that makes 80-85t assaults to be in such an awkward place (unless it has +top speed like some of the Zeus or Charger, or A LOT of durability like the Longbow[durability quirks]/Stalker[amazing hitbox+weapon placement]) of "only vaguely as durable" and "only slightly more firepower" that they have.
Granted something like the ACH-B/MLX-D powercreeping Assassin Darkdeath and the ballistic Panther by matching/exceeding their durability AND firepower (and even mobility) is more an example of those latter two being hilariously neglected.

I'd much prefer cooldown, +MG RoF (maybe not more for LMGs) and heat buffs, especially since they'd reward (by letting them to just keep shooting/do more damage in their time of opportunity) good positioning and timing attacks to when they're not the focused or sole target/going for isolated targets.
And maybe a dash of ammo quirks here and there when warranted, since 20ts have a surprising lack of this with only +100% ammo quirks at most when +200-300% ammo quirks gets thrown around now and then nowadays, with the LRM Locust being the only one having +300%.

Edited by Ttly, 09 May 2025 - 09:03 PM.

[GreyNovember]

I've actually managed to make HMLs on Piranhas work similarly. Lacks MASC and the extra heat sink you get in exchange is honestly negligible, but it's the same sort of game you play while not being dependent on your arms to hold all your guns.

I'm hesitant to just give everything more cooling / ROF, because that just promotes the arms race rather than differentiating the chassis. More oppurtunities to engage with a mech and the game's mechanics tends to be healthier overall, instead of being as uninteractive as possible and playing like an OTK out of hand deck in a CCG.

Piranhas arguably are, already, "The MG Chassis", by virtue of speed and hardpoints.

[Meep Meep]

Firemoths are not overly strong at least in an average players hands. I rarely see them now unless its a particular gud player who mains lights. The general pop abandoned them because they have a very specific playstyle not everyone can do and they get legged mega easy to anyone with even marginal aim. I'd be very surprised if any of them get a nerf.

[Ttly]

GreyNovember, on 09 May 2025 - 08:58 PM, said:

I've actually managed to make HMLs on Piranhas work similarly. Lacks MASC and the extra heat sink you get in exchange is honestly negligible, but it's the same sort of game you play while not being dependent on your arms to hold all your guns.

I'm hesitant to just give everything more cooling / ROF, because that just promotes the arms race rather than differentiating the chassis. More oppurtunities to engage with a mech and the game's mechanics tends to be healthier overall, instead of being as uninteractive as possible and playing like an OTK out of hand deck in a CCG.

Piranhas arguably are, already, "The MG Chassis", by virtue of speed and hardpoints.

More cooling/faster cooldown needs exposure to make use of it, and the ability to decide on when to use it (you know, just like how people who say UACs being hotter is a real downside when you can just not doubletap while hot). And on vehicles without direct durability the likes of lights, careless exposure can be really punishing on its own already.

If anything, they're not rewarded enough for it, or even when they do find a good opportunity (which its amount in a match that you can get is limited by the loadout range, either team's positioning, and whatever other stuff) for it, lacks the heat bandwidth and or DPS to really capitalize on it.
And you know the argument about "damage now (high alpha, which most lights can't reach due to tonnage+hardpoint count limitations, or at least not without being a medium/heavy without the armor) is better than damage later (DPS which is achievable through quirks)" and how it goes.

Meep Meep, on 10 May 2025 - 01:21 AM, said:

Firemoths are not overly strong at least in an average players hands. I rarely see them now unless its a particular gud player who mains lights. The general pop abandoned them because they have a very specific playstyle not everyone can do and they get legged mega easy to anyone with even marginal aim. I'd be very surprised if any of them get a nerf.

Well that's my point.
Even with it powercreeping fast builds and being somewhat currently overtuned relative to the alternatives.
Maybe it's said other options needing buffs instead.

Edited by Ttly, 10 May 2025 - 04:16 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Ttly, on 10 May 2025 - 03:52 AM, said:

Well that's my point.
Even with it powercreeping fast builds and being somewhat currently overtuned relative to the alternatives.
Maybe it's said other options needing buffs instead.

Dunno. I'd argue that about the only fit that could be considered overtuned is the red vomit types and that is only due to the speed allowing you a better exit if you didn't kill them first backstab and they whip around. The hero is anemic with only 4 energy hardpoints and its intended fit of 4 heavy mediums is just way too hot. Er mediums give you some relief with more range and better heat but then you are only popping off 24 damage per shot so you have to shoot often to build a decent score which again you can't because it doesn't have good sustain. Hero needs better heat dissipation and maybe all of them a slight buff to leg health.