44 replies to this topic

[Moadebe]

Meep Meep, on 15 May 2025 - 03:51 PM, said:

Cauldronies feel its good enuff on existing quirks with lpl fit and yeah thats strong but thats also boring. To be fair I'd be happy with just the jj quirks but the heavy metal treatment would be veddy nice too and wouldn't really change the lpl fit performance curve much.

Yeah no. Doesn't fit the theme. Ghillie. First thing I think of is a sneaky sniper. LPL gives its position away and is honestly less skill based.

Lean into its gauss rifle and theme of being hidden. Very good gauss quirks. Perhaps gauss ammo quirks. Lean into small lasers as a "sidearm" when pressed. It already has ecm so can do stealth armor. Good gauss ammo quirks, Gauss CD. Would actually make it fun instead of a boring laser vom. Wouldnt be op and would require work on the part of the user to do good damage.

[LordNothing]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 17 May 2025 - 12:16 PM, said:

Quarantine looks like it might be the worst Wolverine tbh especially with Starshot around, never see it

Top Dog is really rare in QP but I don't know why, it looks like it should be really solid

I never see Ravager, not entirely sure why. Occasionally see Broadside

Never see Bludgeon, it looks incredibly outclassed by nearly anything else

none of these are really exceptional, at least they dont stand out in my memory. top dog especially seems like it should be better.

[Ttly]

Moadebe, on 18 May 2025 - 08:05 PM, said:

Yeah no. Doesn't fit the theme. Ghillie. First thing I think of is a sneaky sniper. LPL gives its position away and is honestly less skill based.

Lean into its gauss rifle and theme of being hidden. Very good gauss quirks. Perhaps gauss ammo quirks. Lean into small lasers as a "sidearm" when pressed. It already has ecm so can do stealth armor. Good gauss ammo quirks, Gauss CD. Would actually make it fun instead of a boring laser vom. Wouldnt be op and would require work on the part of the user to do good damage.

That's uhh kind of already a thing with CDA-3M? Granted it does have slot issues (ECM+ballistic hardpoint both on LT) that prevents it from having stealth armor unless you settle with LGR/UAC5 instead.
Personally I'd just use UAC5+ERML without stealth on it though.

Speaking of the CDA-3M. The Ghillie getting buffs would kind of mothball it too if overdone.
Seeing as compared to it, it already does have quite an advantage through access to JJs, hardpoint spread that lets it afford stealth build better, etc.

Edited by Ttly, 19 May 2025 - 06:10 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Moadebe, on 18 May 2025 - 08:05 PM, said:

Yeah no. Doesn't fit the theme. Ghillie. First thing I think of is a sneaky sniper. LPL gives its position away and is honestly less skill based.

Yeah, we don't need to encourage stealth + gauss anymore, it's bad enough we already have HAG30 Shadow Cats and Stealth Gauss Thanatos being wastes of space.

[Moadebe]

Ttly, on 19 May 2025 - 05:59 AM, said:

That's uhh kind of already a thing with CDA-3M? Granted it does have slot issues (ECM+ballistic hardpoint both on LT) that prevents it from having stealth armor unless you settle with LGR/UAC5 instead.
Personally I'd just use UAC5+ERML without stealth on it though.

Speaking of the CDA-3M. The Ghillie getting buffs would kind of mothball it too if overdone.
Seeing as compared to it, it already does have quite an advantage through access to JJs, hardpoint spread that lets it afford stealth build better, etc.

See....this is the issue with the game. Everything can do everything else in some way. If the Ghillie is a MC mech then yes it should have better flavor. If the Cicada 3m comparison has hardpoint issues with the ballistic and ECM slots then its not a comparison. Its just another medium mech that has similar hardpoints.

It wont diminish the cicada at all.

[Moadebe]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 19 May 2025 - 07:08 AM, said:

Yeah, we don't need to encourage stealth + gauss anymore, it's bad enough we already have HAG30 Shadow Cats and Stealth Gauss Thanatos being wastes of space.

And this is the problem with the way things are balanced overall. No one wants any fun in this game. They want useful. They want EVERY mech to be useful to the way comp plays. Forget anything thats actually quirky. Nobody wants their "game ruined" cause someone wants to mess around and actually play a game that is supposed to encourage messing around with builds. Lets just sterilize everything to the meta and cater to that.

THAT thinking is what continues to drive people away. We have enough mechs overall where we can cater to the meta minded people and still have other mechs for flavor and fun.

Not only that, but one medium mech with one gauss rifle that is just using ECM and maybe stealth ... maybe not...is not gonna break the game. Hell the two you mentioned bring more power overall in comparison and you are worried about one gauss rifles damage?

And was just thinking....not only that. But you said a shadow cat and a thanatos. Yeah those can run ECM and "gauss". The Thanatos can run Stealth armor at a cost of either ammo, armor, or engine. The Shadow Cat cant even equip stealth. Yet you are saying we dont need to prop up stealth mechs anymore...

So...what you are saying is ECM use is so strong that it effectively makes mechs stealth. Sounds more like an argument that ECM should be reigned in more and information warfare embraced.

Edited by Moadebe, 19 May 2025 - 09:01 AM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

LordNothing, on 19 May 2025 - 05:33 AM, said:

none of these are really exceptional, at least they dont stand out in my memory. top dog especially seems like it should be better.

Nothing about Top Dog indicates to me that it should not be bare minimum a solid performer in a laser poke match. They just seem inexplicably rare even considering the fact that it's an MC mech and not a CBill mech. I would be interested to see if it's considered one of the higher performers within the chassis' variants or if it's just okay.

Counterargument obviously is "uncommon does not mean bad and in need of buff" and "you personally are not seeing them, they are more prevalent than you realize" but are they uncommon, are they in a good place etc etc

I actually see way more Ghillies if this metric holds water

Edited by a 5 year old with an Uzi, 19 May 2025 - 09:30 AM.

[epikt]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 19 May 2025 - 07:08 AM, said:

Yeah, we don't need to encourage stealth + gauss anymore, it's bad enough we already have HAG30 Shadow Cats and Stealth Gauss Thanatos being wastes of space.

I raise you with an Assassin Dark Death.

[LordNothing]

from my personal stats that rank mechs based on k/d, w/l, and damage/game which is added up to give me brownie points (which clamps each category to a 0-1 range from worst=0 to best=1 and sums them up, 3 is the theoretical maximum).

some heroes mentioned here:
top dog = 0.96
quarantine = 0.97
ravager = 1.07
ghillie = 1.11
broadside = 0.92
bludgeon = 0.98
darkdeath = 0.78
sabre = 1.17
the death's knell = 0.95
katana cat = 1.07
street cleaner = 1.0
rival = 1.26
the arrow = 0.63
grid iron = 0.8
high roller = 0.93
tin man = 0.78
belial = 0.72

bests:
dreadnaught = 2.09 (best legend)
wrath = 1.98 (best hero)
piranha b = 2.42 (best mech)

worsts:
cicada 3c = 0.43 (worst mech)
firestorm = 0.48 (worst hero)
hashke = 0.65 (worst legend)

of course these numbers do not reflect the current state of balance. balance may have changed since i put those games in. ive also excluded anything with less than 30 games as those tend to be all over the place as i try different builds. the arrow for example has not been run in recent memory and was probibly using mgs and not magshots. piranha b is a recent run and is at the threshold of 30 games. hashke is also stuck at 30 games and i figure its stats are bad because its a slow urbie with i think a hag40. this is also based on my personal performance and so ymmv and i dont always build the most meta builds.

Edited by LordNothing, 19 May 2025 - 12:54 PM.

[epikt]

LordNothing, on 19 May 2025 - 10:45 AM, said:

from my personal stats

'nuff said...

But you peaked my curiosity so I looked at the global stats (see here for the last batch) and compared the match scores of heroes to the average of their respective mech.
I wished I could color the text to make it readable, but I had to format it with the tools I had: in bold are the heroes that out-perform their average chassis.

In a word, most heroes perform at least OK - and bad global performance does not mean the mech is bad (take the TinMan for example, it's very strong but most people might not know what to do with it).
As for the Ghillie, it performs the same as the average Enforcer.

LIGHTS

Spoiler

flea 202 romeo 227
locust 216 PB 221
piranha 195 cipher 191
commando 203 tdk 240
incubus 240 sabre 240
javelin 185 hithere 206
osiris 219 sekmet 215
spider 200 anansi 179
urbie 222 K9 245 cleaner 232
firestarter 184 firestorm 179 ember 196
jenner 224 oxide 244
jenner-iic 218 fury 218
panther 213 KK 220
Raven 212 huggin 209
wolfhound 233 grinner 234

MEDIUMS

Spoiler

arctic wolf 243 BK 233
assassin 214 DD 216
cicada 253 x5 245
vulcan 241 bloodlust 206
blackjack 251 arrow 265
hatchetman 242 tinman 216
hellspawn 224 paralizer 238
phoenix 234 KK 204 roc 243
vindicator 240 SYB 237
centurion 240 YLW 253
crab 225 florentine 222
enforcer 255 ghillie 256
hunchback 244 GI 228
hunchback-iic 250 DW 256
trebuchet 255 LG 244
uziel 240 belial 268
bushwacker 253 roller 254
dervish 249 frenzy 248
griffin 236 ares 277 sparky 252
kintaro 245 GB 234
shadowhawk 240 GD 222
veagle 275 rival 337
wolverine 228 quarantine 241

HEAVIES

Spoiler

champion 252 invictus 248
dragon 233 fang 240 flame 246
hellfire 227 void 255
quickdraw 246 iv4 239
rifleman 234 LK 247 DB 257
catapult 217 BB 224 jester 228
crusader 248 crael 252
jagermech 232 FB 220
rifleman-iic 232 chironex 226
roughneck 243 bolt 259 PH 226 reaver 239
thundrbolt 247 topdog 260
archer 230 tempest 250
cataphract 235 muromet 242
grasshopper 235 mjolnir 252
warhammer 227 widow 247
blackknight 235 partisan 246
marauder 247 BH2 246
orion 255 protector 241
orion-iic 251 skoll 271
thanatos 227 hangover 225

ASSAULTS

Spoiler

awesome 250 PB 238
charger 262 N7 249
hatamoto-chi 257 shugo 229
victor 232 slayer 243
warhammer-iic 248 maul 326 bludgeon 204
zeus 234 skokomish 234
battlemaster 254 hellslinger 243
longbow 263 overcharge 251
marauder-iic 274 scorch 275
stalker 259 misery 250
cyclops 275 slepnir 307
highlander 264 HM 297
highlander-iic 245 keeper 246
madcatII 257 DS 252
mauler 263 KO 260
supernova 261 boiler 265
banshee 261 siren 204 malinche 271
corsair 251 broadside 237 ravager 259
nighstar 282 phoenix 260
annihilator 259 MB 287
Atlas 264 BH 251 kraken 247
bane 280 leviathan 267
fafnir 267 wraith 271
kingcrab 254 kaiju 250
kodiak 269 SB 255
marauderII 262 alpha 275
rhino 260 koloss 248

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

Quarantine's performance is surprising, it looks like it would not really do any one thing better than any other Wolverine and some things possibly worse

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Moadebe, on 19 May 2025 - 08:24 AM, said:

And this is the problem with the way things are balanced overall. No one wants any fun in this game. They want useful.

You act like those are mutually exclusive. You can have fun AND be useful.

To be clear as well, you thought about the "fun" of the user, but not anyone on the receiving end of these mechs (provided the user can aim). ECM/Stealth is practically OP in QP because so many people have trouble seeing mechs without doritos. Stealth armor makes this worse by removing thermal from the equation of helping you see. Stealth armor was a mistake for this game as it was implemented. People hate getting sniped from far away, stealth armor only further encourages that behavior (and Gauss is much harder to trace the origins of than lasers).

Yes, ECM would benefit from a redesign (not just a reigning in) because like a number of things in this game it has a large impact in QP but little in high level play (which is often a symptom of broken design). However it's not happening in MWO so I'm not going to hold my breath on that one.

epikt, on 19 May 2025 - 09:31 AM, said:

I raise you with an Assassin Dark Death.

I don't know who created that variant or why they did, but it's almost as poorly designed as the Pretty Baby which IMO is still one of the worst designed heroes in the game. Probably tied with the Hi There

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 19 May 2025 - 02:52 PM.

[a 5 year old with an Uzi]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 19 May 2025 - 02:45 PM, said:

You act like those are mutually exclusive. You can have fun AND be useful.

To be clear as well, you thought about the "fun" of the user, but not anyone on the receiving end of these mechs (provided the user can aim). ECM/Stealth is practically OP in QP because so many people have trouble seeing mechs without doritos. Stealth armor makes this worse by removing thermal from the equation of helping you see. Stealth armor was a mistake for this game as it was implemented. People hate getting sniped from far away, stealth armor only further encourages that behavior (and Gauss is much harder to trace the origins of than lasers).

Yes, ECM would benefit from a redesign (not just a reigning in) because like a number of things in this game it has a large impact in QP but little in high level play (which is often a symptom of broken design). However it's not happening in MWO so I'm not going to hold my breath on that one.


I don't know who created that variant or why they did, but it's almost as poorly designed as the Pretty Baby which IMO is still one of the worst designed heroes in the game. Probably tied with the Hi There

On that note you say Hi There is bad but it does show as performing a bit better than chassis average

Is there a possible explanation for this?

[LordNothing]

epikt, on 19 May 2025 - 01:35 PM, said:

'nuff said...

But you peaked my curiosity so I looked at the global stats (see here for the last batch) and compared the match scores of heroes to the average of their respective mech.
I wished I could color the text to make it readable, but I had to format it with the tools I had: in bold are the heroes that out-perform their average chassis.

In a word, most heroes perform at least OK - and bad global performance does not mean the mech is bad (take the TinMan for example, it's very strong but most people might not know what to do with it).
As for the Ghillie, it performs the same as the average Enforcer.

LIGHTS

Spoiler

flea 202 romeo 227
locust 216 PB 221
piranha 195 cipher 191
commando 203 tdk 240
incubus 240 sabre 240
javelin 185 hithere 206
osiris 219 sekmet 215
spider 200 anansi 179
urbie 222 K9 245 cleaner 232
firestarter 184 firestorm 179 ember 196
jenner 224 oxide 244
jenner-iic 218 fury 218
panther 213 KK 220
Raven 212 huggin 209
wolfhound 233 grinner 234

MEDIUMS

Spoiler

arctic wolf 243 BK 233
assassin 214 DD 216
cicada 253 x5 245
vulcan 241 bloodlust 206
blackjack 251 arrow 265
hatchetman 242 tinman 216
hellspawn 224 paralizer 238
phoenix 234 KK 204 roc 243
vindicator 240 SYB 237
centurion 240 YLW 253
crab 225 florentine 222
enforcer 255 ghillie 256
hunchback 244 GI 228
hunchback-iic 250 DW 256
trebuchet 255 LG 244
uziel 240 belial 268
bushwacker 253 roller 254
dervish 249 frenzy 248
griffin 236 ares 277 sparky 252
kintaro 245 GB 234
shadowhawk 240 GD 222
veagle 275 rival 337
wolverine 228 quarantine 241

HEAVIES

Spoiler

champion 252 invictus 248
dragon 233 fang 240 flame 246
hellfire 227 void 255
quickdraw 246 iv4 239
rifleman 234 LK 247 DB 257
catapult 217 BB 224 jester 228
crusader 248 crael 252
jagermech 232 FB 220
rifleman-iic 232 chironex 226
roughneck 243 bolt 259 PH 226 reaver 239
thundrbolt 247 topdog 260
archer 230 tempest 250
cataphract 235 muromet 242
grasshopper 235 mjolnir 252
warhammer 227 widow 247
blackknight 235 partisan 246
marauder 247 BH2 246
orion 255 protector 241
orion-iic 251 skoll 271
thanatos 227 hangover 225

ASSAULTS

Spoiler

awesome 250 PB 238
charger 262 N7 249
hatamoto-chi 257 shugo 229
victor 232 slayer 243
warhammer-iic 248 maul 326 bludgeon 204
zeus 234 skokomish 234
battlemaster 254 hellslinger 243
longbow 263 overcharge 251
marauder-iic 274 scorch 275
stalker 259 misery 250
cyclops 275 slepnir 307
highlander 264 HM 297
highlander-iic 245 keeper 246
madcatII 257 DS 252
mauler 263 KO 260
supernova 261 boiler 265
banshee 261 siren 204 malinche 271
corsair 251 broadside 237 ravager 259
nighstar 282 phoenix 260
annihilator 259 MB 287
Atlas 264 BH 251 kraken 247
bane 280 leviathan 267
fafnir 267 wraith 271
kingcrab 254 kaiju 250
kodiak 269 SB 255
marauderII 262 alpha 275
rhino 260 koloss 248

its interesting to compare global stats to my own. would indicate where i am misusing a particular variant.

[epikt]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 20 May 2025 - 06:27 AM, said:

On that note you say Hi There is bad but it does show as performing a bit better than chassis average
Is there a possible explanation for this?

One factor is probably that Javelin are poorly performing (one of the worst average match score of all chassis) and most exactly are dragged down by some particularly "weak" variants (10N, 10P, 11B and 11F)(in a word: the missile variants and the brawler ; brawler that is crazy strong, but need to know how to use it). The Hi-There is scoring higher than average but actually is somewhere in the middle, far below the higher scoring 10F and 11A.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

a 5 year old with an Uzi, on 20 May 2025 - 06:27 AM, said:

On that note you say Hi There is bad but it does show as performing a bit better than chassis average

Is there a possible explanation for this?

I mean the shadow cat also is a low performer in QP but it's probably one of the best mediums alongside probably the Vulcan. Not all mechs are played to their strengths because people suck at building mechs but also because of QP being QP. QP definitely has a lean towards dakka and repeatable alphas because not every match gives you breathing room for hotter/longer ranged builds but dakka and repeatable alphas can typically mow down the competition's armor which is the biggest issue with QP, just too much armor on the field.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 20 May 2025 - 10:28 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 20 May 2025 - 10:24 AM, said:

but dakka and repeatable alphas can typically mow down the competition's armor which is the biggest issue with QP, just too much armor on the field.

TTK is already hilariously fast. You want a ~faster~ ttk? The stoutest assaults can poke and get cored with how much pewpew is flying around these days.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Meep Meep, on 20 May 2025 - 11:11 AM, said:

TTK is already hilariously fast. You want a ~faster~ ttk? The stoutest assaults can poke and get cored with how much pewpew is flying around these days.

It's highly mech dependent, but even then, 12 mechs on the field, especially if half are assaults is a lot of fat to chew through once you add skills/quirks. There's a reason avg match score has gone up steadily the past few years, and it's not just because average aim has gotten worse. Even good mechs that once had nothing have steadily gotten armor quirks somewhere.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 20 May 2025 - 04:18 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Farm groups already wipe everything in front of them via focus fire even with all that armor on the field. Remove that armor and matches will last as long as it takes them to engage. Which to be fair is about how it already goes. But to a solo player yeah thats a lot of armor to chew through but thats why you group?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Meep Meep, on 28 May 2025 - 11:15 AM, said:

Farm groups already wipe everything in front of them via focus fire even with all that armor on the field. Remove that armor and matches will last as long as it takes them to engage. Which to be fair is about how it already goes. But to a solo player yeah thats a lot of armor to chew through but thats why you group?

Blaming focus fire for low TTK is hilarious tbh. The point of having a high TTK is to encourage that, because you don't need focus fire in a low TTK game and can get you in trouble in some situations (being too close together with individually high killing power means easy quick multi-kills or collaterals).

I mean soup queue is definitely a problem and has been but not really anything to do about it now. Increasing armor definitely isn't the answer though.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 29 May 2025 - 03:55 PM.