19 replies to this topic

[MechWpnsTech]

work as a team, share information, use your r button to keep enemy teams from hiding on radars...


it is not just for lrms....

[KursedVixen]

Just like common sense, teamwork is no longer a common factor.... In all honesty what we have for 'radar' can hardly be even called that. But having actual radar would probably make LRMS even more of a pain....

Ultimaly yes we need more people to target things and call them out.

Targeting doesn't only show your team it also if you can hold it long enouigh shows you information about the target, weapons, armor status etc.

And as the Major always says...

Edited by KursedVixen, 12 July 2025 - 04:58 AM.

[Tesunie]

I have been in matches with people who intentionally dropped locks when they saw the incoming LRM icon on their targets... and also talked to people who refuse to lock targets just to spit LRM users... So. Yeah. Your advice is good. So what if LRMs are coming into your target? It only helps you with the LRMs stripping your target of armor.

Teamwork is overpowered in this game. Those who use it need to be nerfed.

[KursedVixen]

Tesunie, on 12 July 2025 - 05:55 AM, said:

I have been in matches with people who intentionally dropped locks when they saw the incoming LRM icon on their targets... and also talked to people who refuse to lock targets just to spit LRM users... So. Yeah. Your advice is good. So what if LRMs are coming into your target? It only helps you with the LRMs stripping your target of armor.

Teamwork is overpowered in this game. Those who use it need to be nerfed.

Teamwork is Op and will never be nerfed ~MWO game tips.

Edited by KursedVixen, 12 July 2025 - 07:22 AM.

[Void Angel]

Toxic griefers are going to get more and more rare as you tier up. People like that will never be much good at the game, because they're using scapegoats for their bad experiences instead of looking at their own performance.

[Tesunie]

Void Angel, on 13 July 2025 - 08:47 AM, said:

Toxic griefers are going to get more and more rare as you tier up. People like that will never be much good at the game, because they're using scapegoats for their bad experiences instead of looking at their own performance.

Maybe with the new PSR system. The old one, a lot of these people were T1 players...

Overall though, PSR rewards individual performance (AKA: More selfish play), not how well you work in a team or how much you are willing to sacrifice for the teams benefits...

[epikt]

Tesunie, on 13 July 2025 - 04:05 PM, said:

Overall though, PSR rewards individual performance (AKA: More selfish play), not how well you work in a team or how much you are willing to sacrifice for the teams benefits...

That's what I call coping and finding excuses.
There are almost no situation where "sacrificing for the team" without dealing damage and scoring kills is a net positive and will grant you victory. There are much more situations where "playing selfish" (ie not dying I guess) will tip the balance. Because MWO is a game of attrition where (in)balance snowballs fast.

[KursedVixen]

epikt, on 13 July 2025 - 04:37 PM, said:

That's what I call coping and finding excuses.
There are almost no situation where "sacrificing for the team" without dealing damage and scoring kills is a net positive and will grant you victory. There are much more situations where "playing selfish" (ie not dying I guess) will tip the balance. Because MWO is a game of attrition where (in)balance snowballs fast.

No you are rewarded more for selfish play than team play i can get 5 kills but the guy who does 1000 damage and only got 3 kills and a few assist get's a higher match score than me... farming damage should not be more valuable than taking enemy guns off the field of play.

[epikt]

KursedVixen, on 13 July 2025 - 05:09 PM, said:

No you are rewarded more for selfish play than team play i can get 5 kills but the guy who does 1000 damage and only got 3 kills and a few assist get's a higher match score than me... farming damage should not be more valuable than taking enemy guns off the field of play.

In most cases the player dealing 1000 dmg, even if a little sandblasted, is the one that cored the mech you killed and you just finished the job. Don't get me wrong, it has value and should be rewarded, but dealing damage as well.
Also, please explain how dealing damage, ie exposing yourself to return fire, drawing enemy's attention, etc, is "selfish play".
If all you did is scoring kills, like idk 5 kills and 150 dmg, you just played in an opportunist manner, most likely not exposing youself that much... playing, how did you say, "selfishly" (and expecting to be rewarded for it!!!). Allocating match score is a whole can of worm and we could discuss the details in length, but it is actually normal, expected and just a player that didn't deal that much damage doesn't get that much match score.

Edited by epikt, 13 July 2025 - 05:47 PM.

[Tesunie]

epikt, on 13 July 2025 - 04:37 PM, said:

That's what I call coping and finding excuses.
There are almost no situation where "sacrificing for the team" without dealing damage and scoring kills is a net positive and will grant you victory. There are much more situations where "playing selfish" (ie not dying I guess) will tip the balance. Because MWO is a game of attrition where (in)balance snowballs fast.

I have had times where I have seen (over the course of my long time being here) where distracting guns away from your team wins a game, but your personal PSR went down because you might have done something like 150 damage with no kills, but turning backs so your allies get kills wasn't rewarded. Or capturing needed points in Conquest. Or pulling enemies off the front line to chase you off their base in Assault. (I hope I got the right game modes named.)

I've also seen times where someone might get 3 KMDDs, 3 kills, 9 assists, but because they did something along the lines of ~200 damage (very well placed damage), they got PSR down compared to the 2 kill, 3 assists damage farmer who managed to get 1000+ damage.

As a hint for current times, I believe AMS shooting down missiles (protecting yourself, and your team mates) no longer attributes to your match score. I know walking between enemy guns and a damaged ally doesn't get ranked onto PSR, and I know I've done that to save a teammate in a game before...

Almost everything PSR rates is damage related. There are other ways to benefit your team which are not (and honestly some of it can not) be rewarded via PSR ranking. So yes, I stand by what I said where PSR often rewards selfish play, not team play. It is better on PSR for one to not get a target lock so they can deal more of the damage to a target themselves, then share said damage with "LRM leeches" who might benefit from said target lock or another teammate coming in and helping with the target. If someone was to stand back and get mostly target locks, they gain very little for that role, even if it wins them the match (as a team).

Of course, I have little video or screen shot evidence of such stuff, and overall it doesn't matter. I treat this as a game, and a game's goal is to have fun for me. I'm not trying out for be best player in this thing. In the end, PSR doesn't matter a lot to me. For me, it's just an interesting metric to watch.

[KursedVixen]

epikt, on 13 July 2025 - 04:37 PM, said:

That's what I call coping and finding excuses.
There are almost no situation where "sacrificing for the team" without dealing damage and scoring kills is a net positive and will grant you victory. There are much more situations where "playing selfish" (ie not dying I guess) will tip the balance. Because MWO is a game of attrition where (in)balance snowballs fast.

you speak of inbalance yet I consistently see games where the team 2 members down due to disconnects or kills lose about 89% of the time.... Again the loss of firepower especially if it is heavier mechs heavily weights down the teams chance of winning.

Edited by KursedVixen, 14 July 2025 - 08:20 AM.

[Void Angel]

Disconnects make it harder for your team to win... water is also wet, usually. What does that have to do with what you quoted?

This conversation seems to get more tedious every time we have it, guys. Yes, there are times when something you do for the team doesn't compensate you with match score. And we could theorycraft about those things, and suggest alternative scoring, etc. But there are potential pitfalls and drawbacks to giving too much match score out for things like TAG and scouting - we've been over all that before. You could have people focusing on "support" builds with TAG and NARC without any guns to back it up; that would hurt the team, but some players won't care. But the one metric that nearly always contributes to team success? Which players will always care about? Damage. That's why PSR rewards damage over other metrics; not because it's perfect, but because it is the best imperfect measurement we have.

[Tesunie]

Void Angel, on 14 July 2025 - 09:10 AM, said:

That's why PSR rewards damage over other metrics; not because it's perfect, but because it is the best imperfect measurement we have.

This. 100% this.

PSR is the way it is because it is the best we can get (short of some super complex system/algorithm that likely would never work and/or be too expensive to even try to devise). It may promote more "selfish" play over team play, but there is little else to use.

[martian]

KursedVixen, on 13 July 2025 - 05:09 PM, said:

No you are rewarded more for selfish play than team play i can get 5 kills but the guy who does 1000 damage and only got 3 kills and a few assist get's a higher match score than me... farming damage should not be more valuable than taking enemy guns off the field of play.

That guy who did 1000 damage probably cored those enemy 'Mechs for you to come and touch their cherry red CTs and collect those Killing Blows.

[Tesunie]

martian, on 14 July 2025 - 10:38 AM, said:

That guy who did 1000 damage probably cored those enemy 'Mechs for you to come and touch their cherry red CTs and collect those Killing Blows.

Or were very ineffective in their placement of damage, either damage farming an enemy mech or intentionally spreading their damage.

Either case is possible with high damage numbers. I've seen players damage farm the AFK/Disconnect on the enemy team just to improve their rewards/PSR, rather than finish the target quickly and move on to help the rest of the team.

(FYI: I am not claiming this is an "every time" thing, but that it "can be an indicator of". I am not saying high damage players are "always ineffectively spreading damage".)


The same argument could be made in reverse at times with team kills. I have had several times when the enemy took one of my mech's legs, made the other cherry red before they dropped, and then an ally bumped into me by accident and killed me. They got penalized for the (less than 1 point of team damage) team kill... Was it exactly that ally pelting into me to kill me? No. It was an accident, and I would have forgave them for caving in my leg as it wasn't entirely on them.

[martian]

Tesunie, on 14 July 2025 - 10:58 AM, said:

Or were very ineffective in their placement of damage, either damage farming an enemy mech or intentionally spreading their damage.

Either case is possible with high damage numbers. I've seen players damage farm the AFK/Disconnect on the enemy team just to improve their rewards/PSR, rather than finish the target quickly and move on to help the rest of the team.

(FYI: I am not claiming this is an "every time" thing, but that it "can be an indicator of". I am not saying high damage players are "always ineffectively spreading damage".)


The same argument could be made in reverse at times with team kills. I have had several times when the enemy took one of my mech's legs, made the other cherry red before they dropped, and then an ally bumped into me by accident and killed me. They got penalized for the (less than 1 point of team damage) team kill... Was it exactly that ally pelting into me to kill me? No. It was an accident, and I would have forgave them for caving in my leg as it wasn't entirely on them.

I know what I am talking about, since I have recognized the usual KursedVixen's whining.

In one of his previous threads he complained that his six kills were not appreciated enough. If I remember correctly, the closer examination showed that just one of his kills was a Solo Kill. The other five kills were just Killing Blows.

[Tesunie]

martian, on 14 July 2025 - 11:47 AM, said:

I know what I am talking about, since I have recognized the usual KursedVixen's whining.

In one of his previous threads he complained that his six kills were not appreciated enough. If I remember correctly, the closer examination showed that just one of his kills was a Solo Kill. The other five kills were just Killing Blows.

As a team game... does it actually matter who lands the killing blow? As long as a target is taken out of the fight and can no longer damage your allies/you, then I'm just happy someone took that enemy down. Much like I don't care if an ally got 1000 damage with no kills and 12 assists. I'm going to presume they did a lot of focused damage to every enemy (or I hope so) and someone else kept getting the last tap on those targets (and being hopeful they aren't just farming damage by purposefully aiming for components and prolonging the kill).

I do not care if an ally is using LRMs, direct fire or catching the capture points as needed. As long as we are working as a team to give as good as we can to win, I'm happy. Do I get a little upset to find the LRM user is an LRM boat standing at 1000+m away being hopeful that someone else will provide solid locks (and likely doing little in the match because... 1000+m away), sure. But I'm not going to be too upset if it looks like people are at least trying.

Now. Would I love for PSR and in match rewards to acknowledge actions not related to damage, such as a light mech squirreling enemy mechs away from the front, pulling more of them away from us than there are of us being chased by them, sure. Do I realize that would be a huge ask and not likely to happen? Also yes.

I would love to see people who farm damage for better PSR standings to get less reward for less optimized game play, over someone aiming for CT or more optimized means of landing damage? Sure. But it's not a practical ask. Thus, as Void said, "That's why PSR rewards damage over other metrics; not because it's perfect, but because it is the best imperfect measurement we have." We can talk about it all we want, doesn't mean it can be done.

Edited by Tesunie, 14 July 2025 - 12:36 PM.

[epikt]

Tesunie, on 14 July 2025 - 12:17 PM, said:

Now. Would I love for PSR and in match rewards to acknowledge actions not related to damage, such as a light mech squirreling enemy mechs away from the front, pulling more of them away from us than there are of us being chased by them, sure. Do I realize that would be a huge ask and not likely to happen? Also yes.

More than a huge ask, this is most likely impossible to decide by an algorithm, especially a simple one like what calculates the match score.
Damn, often even humans will disagree about what action would be useful or not to the team.


As for players allegedly deliberately spreading damage on their targets rather than efficiently killing them, I rarely see them and I think there is a lot delusion in all the whining about them.
When I see one of such behavior, it's in 99% of the cases at the end farming an AFK for damage (I think it's pathetic) or playing with your food for some reason, when the last target is neutered (it can be fun, if done in a friendly way). In both situation, even if it unfairly inflates the matchscore it's harmless.
We can complain all day about our teammates poor play, but one thing I'm pretty sure about is they don't do it on purpose.

Edited by epikt, 14 July 2025 - 02:20 PM.

[Tesunie]

epikt, on 14 July 2025 - 02:19 PM, said:

More than a huge ask, this is most likely impossible to decide by an algorithm, especially a simple one like what calculates the match score.
Damn, often even humans will disagree about what action would be useful or not to the team.

Agreed, which was why I mentioned it as "we can talk about it, but expectations can't match reality" about what we might like to see vs what can be done.

epikt, on 14 July 2025 - 02:19 PM, said:

As for players allegedly deliberately spreading damage on their targets rather than efficiently killing them, I rarely see them and I think there is a lot delusion in all the whining about them.
When I see one of such behavior, it's in 99% of the cases at the end farming an AFK for damage (I think it's pathetic) or playing with your food for some reason, when the last target is neutered (it can be fun, if done in a friendly way). In both situation, even if it unfairly inflates the matchscore it's harmless.
We can complain all day about our teammates poor play, but one thing I'm pretty sure about is they don't do it on purpose.

This can depend upon the player, as I knew of a few that did this... regularly... and then thump their chests about how great they were to deal so much damage. Particularly of note on purposefully dropping locks if they saw the incoming missile symbol show up next to their target...

I will also say, also depends upon the event. We have had events in the past where you had to destroy "X number of components". During those events, expect to see far more aiming for side torsos and killing by removing legs after disarming an opponent. Blowing a side torso off counts as two components destroyed, and excluding IS XL Engines, keeps the target alive for you to remove an arm and both legs... for 5-6 components destroyed (which also buffs PSR and match rewards).

In my long and storied career here, I've seen a lot of shenanigans. How much do people on average do on purpose? Can't say, especially not now. But in the past, we have had people admitting to some rather poor behavior and sportsmanship on these forums... I could even link a few threads showing it in full color (I shall refrain from doing so, as it's not important). Is it an average? I don't believe so. I think most people shoot center of mass aiming for CT or a ST to drop targets/weapons as fast as they can. But I do know some people do farm damage intentionally, often to the detriment of their team but for their own benefit.

[KursedVixen]

Tesunie, on 14 July 2025 - 05:47 PM, said:

Agreed, which was why I mentioned it as "we can talk about it, but expectations can't match reality" about what we might like to see vs what can be done.



This can depend upon the player, as I knew of a few that did this... regularly... and then thump their chests about how great they were to deal so much damage. Particularly of note on purposefully dropping locks if they saw the incoming missile symbol show up next to their target...

I will also say, also depends upon the event. We have had events in the past where you had to destroy "X number of components". During those events, expect to see far more aiming for side torsos and killing by removing legs after disarming an opponent. Blowing a side torso off counts as two components destroyed, and excluding IS XL Engines, keeps the target alive for you to remove an arm and both legs... for 5-6 components destroyed (which also buffs PSR and match rewards).

In my long and storied career here, I've seen a lot of shenanigans. How much do people on average do on purpose? Can't say, especially not now. But in the past, we have had people admitting to some rather poor behavior and sportsmanship on these forums... I could even link a few threads showing it in full color (I shall refrain from doing so, as it's not important). Is it an average? I don't believe so. I think most people shoot center of mass aiming for CT or a ST to drop targets/weapons as fast as they can. But I do know some people do farm damage intentionally, often to the detriment of their team but for their own benefit.

i prefer to aim for the CT but if i see a Side torso open i aim for that to a least deal with some weapons....typically i will aim for the CT or open side torso or leg to make a target easier to finish off.