54 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

First, it's not primarily about "finding cover" when you defend a choke point - it's about massing fire to cripple the advancing group, and either drive them back through the choke or deal enough damage that they've lost regardless. There is always more room on the other side of a choke point than there is on the inside of that point - but the choke point is still the same size in 8v8. So since there will be, on balance, fewer enemies on the enemy team contesting the brawler's advance, it is easier for 'mechs such as brawlers to force choke points or travel up avenues of approach to come to grips with the enemy. This is a math problem with graphics, and you gave the wrong answer.

Drenzul, on 13 August 2025 - 04:13 AM, said:

Not really. If you are all in one location, that means that location can be surrounded, which means you can't easily find cover and are likely taking back shots.

Murderball only really works effectively in PUGs because of lack of communication and team-play. You've often lost several assault that ran head-long into the murder-ball before the flankers can get into position.

Its basically entirely a poor co-ordination/awareness issue.

Now, this just isn't true. In the specific situation, they had people out to flank and disrupt the incoming murder ball, along with a timer to force us to forgo any sort of cautious, enveloping attack. But in general, you're totally misunderstanding what the so-called "murderball" is doing for the team, and why it is, has been, and will continue to be a common and effective tactic. Grouping your big 'mechs together is a mainstay of PuG tactics for a reason. It's inaccurate to take failure states like being bogged down, and then assume that's the normal state for a "murder ball" - while simultaneously assuming that a rear flanking maneuver is a simple and easy alternative to pull off. That much-maligned "blob" has flankers of its own; it has outriders and scouts, and agency to react to the threats those assets discover.

Grouping up your big 'mechs - which is what's actually advocated in "Follow the Fracking Atlas," is a good tactic in its own right - it is also the best default for the average semi-communicative PuG team, but it's not only for them. Concentration of force has been a mainstay modern tactics ever since Von Clauswitz's widow published On War after his death. Putting your big hitters together doesn't mean everyone tries to stand on each other's head like a bunch of cartoon weasels in a trenchcoat - but getting everyone who doesn't have another job to all gather in the same place is very useful when you make first contact with the enemy's main body. Or as someone once put it:

Void Angel, on 19 December 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Flockasheeping Is "Baaahd." Many times when players do stick together, they end up demonstrating the proverbial "too much of a good thing," particularly when the leaders of the push take a shot from a Medium Laser - and frantically scamble for the nearest cover. The team tends to pile up, creating confusion, blocking movement, and generally making a beautiful Artillery Strike target. You want to stay near each other, but far enough apart so that you can still shoot, move, and run from the pretty red smoke.

What are the Assaults, or Heavies, supposed to do, actually? They're generally of similar speed, and generally benefit from mutual support - are the Heavies supposed to split up and trundle off to try and execute a rear flank? That's going to take a minute, during which time you are gambling that the enemy team won't notice that a third of your team is out of the fight. You might get lucky; but if they notice and attack, they're going to put you over their knee and spank you with Lanchester's Laws - while an important part of your combat power is stuck on the wrong side of key terrain, trying to be clever. That's not to say that flanking maneuvers, Light harassment, etc, are bad - but they're not the baseline players should be looking for in the semi-communicative environment of most PuG matches.

We're at risk of veering off-topic here, so let me reiterate: working together in a group is still teamwork; it's not the only form of teamwork you should do, but it works for a reason, and it's not going away.

PS: Brawlers were still viable in 12v12; now, they're over-tuned a bit because there's less firepower to kill them, but they still retain all their armor quirks.

PPS: 8v8 makes "deathballing" even more powerful because there's not as many people trying to occupy the same terrain. That's why Quickplay's Assault % has been fluctuating generally between high numbers for most of the day when I've checked it. Right now, it's sitting at 71%, though it's been fluctuating wildly (currently it's dropped to 32% before popping back up to 42%.) Wanna bet me whether most of those Assaults have armor quirks? =]

[pbiggz]

Just gonna drop this little bomb here but respawns fix most of the deathball and nascar problems.

This game does not have respawns. Dying is extra punishing for you, and your team, and extra rewarding for your opponents. Nobody wants to be the first one dead, so being in the blob is a natural tactic to raise your chances of not being the first one to get gibbed.

Until you let people have another shake at it in the same match, nothing will ever actually change it.

[Void Angel]

It also facilitates mutually supportive fires and allows your team to more effectively apply Lanchester's Square Law to the enemy.

[Drenzul]

Void Angel, on 13 August 2025 - 04:58 PM, said:

First, it's not primarily about "finding cover" when you defend a choke point - it's about massing fire to cripple the advancing group, and either drive them back through the choke or deal enough damage that they've lost regardless. There is always more room on the other side of a choke point than there is on the inside of that point - but the choke point is still the same size in 8v8. So since there will be, on balance, fewer enemies on the enemy team contesting the brawler's advance, it is easier for 'mechs such as brawlers to force choke points or travel up avenues of approach to come to grips with the enemy. This is a math problem with graphics, and you gave the wrong answer.

Yes and the problem is people walk straight into that choke point, not that its a good tactic in particular.
If the enemy does something really stupid then any tactic is good!

Void Angel, on 13 August 2025 - 04:58 PM, said:

Now, this just isn't true. In the specific situation, they had people out to flank and disrupt the incoming murder ball, along with a timer to force us to forgo any sort of cautious, enveloping attack. But in general, you're totally misunderstanding what the so-called "murderball" is doing for the team, and why it is, has been, and will continue to be a common and effective tactic. Grouping your big 'mechs together is a mainstay of PuG tactics for a reason. It's inaccurate to take failure states like being bogged down, and then assume that's the normal state for a "murder ball" - while simultaneously assuming that a rear flanking maneuver is a simple and easy alternative to pull off. That much-maligned "blob" has flankers of its own; it has outriders and scouts, and agency to react to the threats those assets discover.


Grouping up your big 'mechs - which is what's actually advocated in "Follow the Fracking Atlas," is a good tactic in its own right - it is also the best default for the average semi-communicative PuG team, but it's not only for them. Concentration of force has been a mainstay modern tactics ever since Von Clauswitz's widow published On War after his death. Putting your big hitters together doesn't mean everyone tries to stand on each other's head like a bunch of cartoon weasels in a trenchcoat - but getting everyone who doesn't have another job to all gather in the same place is very useful when you make first contact with the enemy's main body. Or as someone once put it:


What are the Assaults, or Heavies, supposed to do, actually? They're generally of similar speed, and generally benefit from mutual support - are the Heavies supposed to split up and trundle off to try and execute a rear flank? That's going to take a minute, during which time you are gambling that the enemy team won't notice that a third of your team is out of the fight. You might get lucky; but if they notice and attack, they're going to put you over their knee and spank you with Lanchester's Laws - while an important part of your combat power is stuck on the wrong side of key terrain, trying to be clever. That's not to say that flanking maneuvers, Light harassment, etc, are bad - but they're not the baseline players should be looking for in the semi-communicative environment of most PuG matches.

You are talking about holding up via a choke point, then change tact when people reference them getting flanked due to being stationary. If you've got a bunch of the team covering the flanks/rear etc, that's a co-ordinated push which is a bit different.
Keeping your slow moving mechs together isn't exactly what is normally referred to as a murder-ball. That's when the whole team is doing it.

No-one is arguing with you that having your slow moving mechs together is generally a good move. Having them slightly apart in positions they can support each other is far better however but does require some map awareness + co-ordination.

Void Angel, on 13 August 2025 - 04:58 PM, said:

PS: Brawlers were still viable in 12v12; now, they're over-tuned a bit because there's less firepower to kill them, but they still retain all their armor quirks.

Oh so that's why half the team in games of 12v12 were snipers right? Snipers are OP in 12v12 exactly because you could basically take out any mech from long range with co-ordinated fire pretty easy.

If anything its a bigger issue how potent a decent sniper can be at close range. Even 1v1 in a sniper, if the brawler isn't using cover well to approach, I can generally wear them down to the point I can easily take them out by the time they get into their weapon range. Flanking lights are a far bigger issue to snipers.

There are still many positions on most maps that a sniper can take to ensure that they can get multiple shots off at a brawler before he even gets into range.

Void Angel, on 13 August 2025 - 04:58 PM, said:

PPS: 8v8 makes "deathballing" even more powerful because there's not as many people trying to occupy the same terrain. That's why Quickplay's Assault % has been fluctuating generally between high numbers for most of the day when I've checked it. Right now, it's sitting at 71%, though it's been fluctuating wildly (currently it's dropped to 32% before popping back up to 42%.) Wanna bet me whether most of those Assaults have armor quirks? =]

Great? Half my snipers have armour/structure quirks as well. How is that relevant?
Whats the biggest +armour on assaults? +36? So less than a single hit from a sniper.....

Deathballs are more powerful in 8v8 cos teams don't co-ordinate, so when 1-2 people wander into the murderball solo and get obliterated, it has a much bigger impact on the team, since its 1/8th of the team gone instead of 1/12th.

[pbiggz]

deathball didnt start with 12v12 and 8v8 doesnt solve deathball. respawns do.

[Void Angel]

Drenzul, on 14 August 2025 - 01:28 AM, said:

Yes and the problem is people walk straight into that choke point, not that its a good tactic in particular.
If the enemy does something really stupid then any tactic is good!

If your team does something really stupid, then any tactic is bad. But you can't judge a tactic by its effects when people screw it up. Your definition of "murderball" is likely overspecific. People will use "nascar" to refer to an all-out sprint race around the central terrain features of a map, and also to a more concerted movement in the same direction - the key is the mindless clockwise rotation that inevitably leads to one side being flanked, or attacked from the rear. If we say, "oh, no that's not a murderball because those three 'mechs are sniping and scouting," or "that's not a murderball because it's coordinating its attack" then we've excluded so much that the term doesn't match common usage.

If your "murderball" is running blind into the enemy, it's because they're committing other tactical errors, like not finding out where the enemy may be before wandering through a choke point - exactly the same error as when singleton 'mechs blunder into the group. The difference is that the "murder blob" will murder them, while a couple of whatevers isn't generally a threat to the grouped team. That's why it's a better tactic, even though it can be, and is, misapplied.

Edited by Void Angel, 14 August 2025 - 09:25 AM.

[kalashnikity]

pbiggz, on 14 August 2025 - 05:41 AM, said:

deathball didnt start with 12v12 and 8v8 doesnt solve deathball. respawns do.

I'd like to see "drop deck weekends" every weekend. Server population is higher on weekends I think, so that would give enough extra population to not wreck normal QP.

[VeeOt Dragon]

didn't try the 8V8 this time (had to many better things to do than playing MWO but they have done this before and every time i have hated it. to me the more mechs per team the better. sadly with population numbers falling that isn't really an option. 12v12 is how things are balanced. as someone who detests the constant cookie cutter meta ******** i find 8v8 just shrinks the number of effective weapons/builds down in turn making more mechs even rarer on the battlefield. i want variety i want to see an enemy mech's loadout (or an allies if i am spectating) an go "what the hell is that build", or "wow thats interesting" even "what the hell is that and how is he doing so well with it"

8v8 also gives less room for the closest this games has to support roles. your NARC/TAG scouts, your LRM/ATM/Tbolt or the couple oddball quirked mechs that have things like extended radar range. there are no healers or buffers (unless you count ECM circle as a buff). i know its a single player game but when i play games like HBS Battletech and MWO 5: Mercs i tend to run elf inposed rules like no buying equipment from the store other than ammo or such things. i like playing mechs that are not the best. i don't care about my Tier so if i get in my head to play a sub par mech and it brings my tier down i don't care. fun is the important thing. the more fun the better.

in my experience every time there has been an 8v8 the variety of mechs encountered tanks. i am by far the not the best player in the world and never claim to be. i know what i personalty like and what i personally do well with. yes i enjoy LRMs until they were nerfed into the ground because i few self important jack asses decided that since they can't simply remove the weapons they hate they will just nerf them (yes i know clan LRM got something of a buff but they are still near useless.

as for murder ball when you have 12 (or even 8) random people on a team less than half of which even have coms turned on (those that group up usually using discord, teamspeak, or other outside program instead of the in game chat). murder balling is the simplest tactic. simple is best when trying to herd the cats that are all players. the simplest tactic is to just call out to stick together it lets everyone support each other without have some grand plan. you are dropped on a semi-random map, with a semi-random game mode with a completely random group of players, mechs, and builds. you have to be fluid. yes matches have been assault heavy but thats mostly because PGI seems to like releasing new mechs in the assault class (i personally prefer heavies more often than not but i end up playing assaults more for some reason). i fiddle with things i mess with builds. yes there ar ones i return to but i love variety. is murder ball the best tactic, no, neither is nascar but those are both the most common because they take the least pre-match coordination. each mech and build has its niche and unless you are expecting everyone to only use the most meta of meta then you are not going to get a predictable set of players. unless you are grouping up there is no "i am running my NARC raven someone bring LRM" or vice versa. there is no "hey we are assault heavy and have no lights can one of the assaults switch to a scout mech". when someones does say try and do something extra they never state it in chat. so when that light or fast medium goes off either someone will follow thinking they have some reason to run off worth following or they end up running off alone some 2k meters from the any support and they start spamming the help key (sorry friend you to far away for anyone to come help you). 8v8 just makes stomps more common as well since the loss of a single mech is an even greater percentage of available firepower.

some people have suggested drop decks in QP that just makes things even worse since now if you get stomped not only do you have to burn through more mechs but if you are that person that loses all 4 first now you have 4 mechs locked and unplayable till that last coward on the map who ran off shut down and hid gets found or the timer runs out. QP should always be Quick, relatively short matches. you want drop decks and complicated tactics go play Faction Play where you can group up with 11 people you know and talk out tactics and what mechs to bring while you wait an half an hour for the next match.

[Elric-]

since going back to 12V12 matches have gone right back to one sided blow outs

[ZtrichZ]

First of all, murderball IS teamwork. Second of all, sniping IS NOT teamwork.

[pbiggz]

Elric-, on 19 August 2025 - 08:59 AM, said:

since going back to 12V12 matches have gone right back to one sided blow outs

but i thought 8v8 was causing one sided blowouts! /s

[1453 R]

pbiggz, on 19 August 2025 - 03:58 PM, said:

but i thought 8v8 was causing one sided blowouts! /s

It's almost like some people - this is me, glaring at some notable posts in this thread - have made it their mission to play absolutely and utterly nonfunctional 'Mech Dad BS that couldn't carry its weight if you gave it two Leopards with hoist cranes and believe it is their gods-given right to have eleven other people surrounding them to hide amongst all while actively and deliberately seeking to throw the game as hard as possible, and if one team gets two or three of these yaybos while the other team gets none, that's a way bigger problem than any grouped players ever could be.

That really seems to be the core complaint behind every single person who hAaAaAaTeS 8v8 - "It's harder to be completely useless and let my team carry me to victories I had no part in earning!" Which, in turn, makes it real goddamned hard to take any of those complaints seriously.

[DarkBazerker]

I'm sorry. What!? I have never seen murderball in 12v12 just a heads up. I have seen nascar and firing lines but thats about it. Back in the day tho, murderball was what you did if you had mostly pugs cause it was easy for them to understand (pre voice). The over all idea was simple to sneak close and push in with your tanks as a wedge splitting them apart, taking one side side them the other with heavy firepower.

The only reason we saw mostly assaults is because the group size was small and the tonnage limit allowed it to happen.

[pbiggz]

DarkBazerker, on 19 August 2025 - 06:28 PM, said:

I'm sorry. What!? I have never seen murderball in 12v12 just a heads up. I have seen nascar and firing lines but thats about it.

lol no

[Xypherious]

1453 R, on 10 August 2025 - 01:40 PM, said:

Light 'Mechs can prey on extended and out-of-position assaults, but they can't do anything about a used litterbox clump of six or more assault 'mechs all up in each other's laps pointing guns in basically every direction. That much metal all concentrated in one place is simply immune to raking attacks, and consumable strikes don't deal remotely enough damage to dissuade the clumping. That's why all these people are screaming and screaming and screaming for 12v12 back - they've dropped below Critical Assault mass to make their Murderblobs more-or-less immune to any sort of light cavalry or flanker/stinger/striker attacks so they can simply sit behind their rock and wait for nuclear decay to determine who wins the fight.

I honestly think that's the reason Murderblobbing became the only thing any of them ever do in the first place - they discovered that getting enough assault 'Mechs in a single location made them all collectively immune to the one thing they simply cannot tolerate no matter what - being genuinely outplayed by a light 'Mech and made to pay the natural penalty for their overabundance of weaponry. They're all so hyperfixated on vomiting as much damage as they humanly possibly can, rather than seeking victory in the match, that they play 'mechs that generally lose more than they play 'Mechs that win, so long as they can deal a thousand damage with their lame worthless LRM assaults before getting overrun and killed.

8v8 doesn't usually provide enough metal to do that, but 12v12 does. So players that hate actually being useful to their teams want 12v12 back so they can be pointless damage farmers again rather than trying to learn to be MechWarriors.

That is an awful lot of projection. Clumps are the most effective way for me to play a locust, or an adder, or.... oh, wait........

Player behavior is a response to the game we have, for better or for worse.