16 replies to this topic

[kalashnikity]

Preferably in high mounts.

[kalashnikity]

IS bullshark seems too hot. Argent seems OP, but arm guns are low.

But there is a Bane build with "UAC10x3 + UAC5x3" and all high mounts.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i picked up the Argent just now in the event and one of y build ideas for is 2 UAC/10, 5 ER MLs (right now my build for it is 4 L-AC/5, 3 ER LLs though i might got with the UACs later)

unless a mech has jam chance quirks i rarely use UACs. when i do use them i never use two different sized one as they are heavy and that extra tonnage could go somewhere else. though perhaps pairing UAC/10s with L-AC/5s might work even if the tonnage investment is a bit high for the damage. then again these are only IS numbers. IS balistics are just to heavy to do a 2 UAC/10 + 2 UAC/5 build. not sure you could do such a build without sacrificing quite a bit on speed and other factors. for an IS mech that wold be 44 tons just for the weapons, add to that at least 2t ammo for each gun (what i find is a nice sweet spot for most ammo weapons) thats an extra 8t bringing it to a total of 52 tons of equipment. the only way i think of that you can fit that on an IS mech is to be moving at stock Urbie speeds.

now with Clan tech it might be easier since their Ballistics are lighter and even take up less space for the most part.

though this is just my opinion if you can get the build to fit with enough ammo and heat management to make it worth it then go for it.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 15 September 2025 - 10:05 PM.

[Foeman-77]

Clan does it better and on more mechs, but 2x UAC10s and 2x UAC5s is not enough anymore. People used to back off in the days when the MCII-B was new but nowadays nobody cares that you are plinking away from them with a few mid-sized autocannons. The enemies push right into you, the guns jam and overheat, and you get wrecked.

[Ttly]

IS UAC5s are decent for what they are, I mean doing 5 more damage for only 1 more ton and slot than the AC5 and with the only downside being that the double-tap (that you don't always have to use by the way) can jam on top of being inherently less (only slightly in practice) accurate than an AC10? It's a good deal is what it is.

But for C-UAC5s, their burst fire duration makes them more to be like UAC2s (each projectile doing 2.5ish damage too even) with only less jam and better ergonomics (you don't have to hammer the fire button as hard to do as much damage) what with the burst duration not really being that different from UAC2 doubletaps as well.

Which is a stupid upside you ask me. I mean spending more tonnage solely for better ergonomics? It's a welcome change from sticking to UAC2s instead sure, but it's also more an issue with UAC2s being just uncomfortable to use? And it doesn't even have the courtesy to let the projectiles have as much velocity out of the box.

And then the C-AC10 being 2burst really just puts it as a jamless IS UAC5 with worse range and cooldown, and in response to these downsides someone thought to buff it last year.
By increasing its HSL limit to encourage boating builds with high alpha (50ish damage) pinpoint attacks by pairing them with PPCs instead of just removing its burst that made it a hard sell in the first place compared to just using C-UAC10s.

Edited by Ttly, 16 September 2025 - 03:06 AM.

[Void Angel]

You're forgetting the cooldown and damage per heat stats, amongst other things.

[Ttly]

Void Angel, on 16 September 2025 - 08:44 AM, said:

You're forgetting the cooldown and damage per heat stats, amongst other things.

Playing an AC build and overheating at all usually means the other team did a misplay that lets you shoot at them for way more than they should've. Or running an energy+AC thing.

But the UAC's "damage now" I'd say is still better than the AC build's less heat for more damage later (when the UAC build would've overheated/jammed instead) in this high alpha ratrace world. And saying that the "jamming on doubletap" is a downside of them kind of ignores that you're not obligated to doubletap all the time, and gambling on that chance to not jam for double damage is often worth it, with the only thing really holding them back is being burst-fire starting from C-UAC5/IS UAC10 that lowers their accuracy against moving stuff.

Edited by Ttly, 20 September 2025 - 08:54 AM.

[Void Angel]

If you're not in danger of overheating in heavy combat you are screwing up somewhere, standard autocannons or not - either you need to add in a PPC somewhere, or you just didn't bring enough gun... something. You shouldn't assume that all important phases of a match consist of cautious, one-on-one, long-range trading exchanges.

But wait... You're comparing Clantech AC/10s to IS UAC/5s? Uhm... yeah, the Clantech gun is better. Occasionally, they're pretty close, but Clantech guns are always better! That's why Inner Sphere 'mechs usually have so many quirks - which in turn is why you have to evaluate the tech bases holistically.

But even so, there are drawbacks and differences between these weapons that don't make them good direct substitutes. The cAC/10 produces 4.4 dps until you overheat or run out of ammo; the IS UAC/5 produces 6.9 dps until it jams. That's a 57% increase in burst dps for roughly the same tonnage, multiplied by as many guns as you can support with cooling. The cAC/10, on the other hand, will just continue to pound on you - at a vastly reduced cost in heat. That cAC/10 is generating 5.0 damage per heat, compared to the IS UAC/5's 3.0 DPH. So if you're looking for a burst-fire dakka 'mech, you'll want Ultra Autocannons - of whatever tech base. But if you want to engage in steady combat (with a more pinpoint alpha for trading,) you'll most often take standard autocannons.

That's why you have to look at all of a gun's characteristics when evaluating them - but even then the analysis will be incomplete. In the above example, you have to remember that in addition to the cAC/10 being much more heat efficient, the Clantech BattleMech has space-efficient 'mech upgrades and DHS available, while the Inner Sphere 'mech will be much more space-constrained. Of course, a given Clan OmniMech may be unable to maximize its per-hardpoint loadout because of hard-locked equipment, upgrades, and engines - meanwhile the Inner Sphere 'mech has to choose between durability and speed - and is being compensated for its tech base disadvantages with better quirks than its Clantech equivalents.

In short, we can't compare apples and oranges, and even comparing direct equivalents across tech bases doesn't tell the whole story.

Edited by Void Angel, 20 September 2025 - 07:09 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

keep in mind that Uacs can jam no mater what. you don't have to even double tap for them to jam (hence why i never use them unless the mech has jam chance quirks). they can jam on the first trigger pull.

[Void Angel]

I have thought that I've seen that happen anecdotally, but I don't know of any testing that proves it. We'd have to test it with video of live matches, or in a private match, since it definitely does not happen in the testing grounds. If/when it does happen, I'd expect it to be related to network instability or packet loss, and that the jam chance is coded as being separate from the weapon firing - I'm sure I recall it happening to me, but memory and perception can be wonky that way; testing is needed to establish that it's actually happening - and especially at what prevalence.

[VeeOt Dragon]

just go into testing grounds with a UAC build, happens there to me all the time

[1453 R]

VeeOt Dragon, on 22 September 2025 - 11:38 AM, said:

just go into testing grounds with a UAC build, happens there to me all the time

Testing Grounds is a local match run on your machine, with no network traffic or anything else happening at all. It can't catch network-related errors, nor anything that arises from backend. I've heard before that Testing Grounds can also miss stuff that simply doesn't happen in Live, but I'm not up on precisely what it does and doesn't catch. I just know it is no.a substitute for Live or private match testing,.

[Ilfi]

Foeman-77, on 16 September 2025 - 01:32 AM, said:

Clan does it better and on more mechs, but 2x UAC10s and 2x UAC5s is not enough anymore.

What is the modern equivalent for 2 UAC10 + 3 UAC5, anyway? I haven't really kept up with things on that front, not since 2 HLL + 6 ERML became the standard for how good an alpha needs to be.

[Ttly]

Void Angel, on 20 September 2025 - 12:00 PM, said:

The cAC/10, on the other hand, will just continue to pound on you - at a vastly reduced cost in heat. That cAC/10 is generating 5.0 damage per heat, compared to the IS UAC/5's 3.0 DPH. So if you're looking for a burst-fire dakka 'mech, you'll want Ultra Autocannons - of whatever tech base. But if you want to engage in steady combat (with a more pinpoint alpha for trading,) you'll most often take standard autocannons. That's why you have to look at all of a gun's characteristics when evaluating them - but even then the analysis will be incomplete. In the above example, you have to remember that in addition to the cAC/10 being much more heat efficient

I think you're missing the part where it's unrealistic to not expect the target moving into cover/the shooter going to cover because the target turns to aim at them.
Which affects how much you're actually allowed to shoot with the cAC-10 there, by solely looking at its DPH.

10ATO for the same damage (but within longer timeframe/less DPS) as 5ATO (with more DPS) doesn't matter when you only get like 3-4 chances to shoot either way.

It's like C/IS LPLs and Beam Laser/LXPL, the latter needs to shoot for TWO seconds to match what the former does in ONE second or less, and only outperforms the former if the target allows themselves to be shot for even longer.

Void Angel, on 20 September 2025 - 12:00 PM, said:

That's why you have to look at all of a gun's characteristics when evaluating them - but even then the analysis will be incomplete. In the above example, you have to remember that in addition to the cAC/10 being much more heat efficient, the Clantech BattleMech has space-efficient 'mech upgrades and DHS available, while the Inner Sphere 'mech will be much more space-constrained. Of course, a given Clan OmniMech may be unable to maximize its per-hardpoint loadout because of hard-locked equipment, upgrades, and engines - meanwhile the Inner Sphere 'mech has to choose between durability and speed - and is being compensated for its tech base disadvantages with better quirks than its Clantech equivalents.

The weapons being lighter/less slots only matters in this game because hardpoint stacking (when enabled) is king, as seen on the Bane, NCT-P, most mixpod omni builds, most things with +HSL quirks, so on.
Look at the low hardpoint count/available free tonnage chassis and how they needs a bajillion of quirk to even be at least decent/on par with their role contemporaries.
Stuff like EXE-C/Prime, TBR-Prime, Summoners that isn't the D, G or P, Linebacker, slow lights.
Not even good, just decent, with their quirks to make up the loss in alpha (from less hardpoint count/low weapon tonnage because overweight engine/locked out of upgrades) through DPS not really ending up to be as equivalent as thought to be either because lack of quirk potency/expectation to run a hard to play (because of weapon velocity mismatch, or more than 2-3 weapon group needed) builds.
Then you have stuff like the Vapor Eagle (other than the Rival) now being a poor man's SMN-D (a case of being overbuffed instead) because apparently being a fully customizable Clan Battlemech means almost zero quirks even on a medium that also has the agility of a slow heavy, apparently.
Or how it took years for the PIR-1 to finally get an ammo buff, and even then it's still often underwhelming.
Or how the HGN-IIC ends up just playing like a worse IS HGN with less hitpoints, thrust, and agility (also no -fall damage quirk) because cXL tax apparently, when both dies from CT/Legged often anyway.
Oh, also I'm on the opinion that you should just blow up when you lose an ST on cXL so we can get rid of cXL tax.

The C-AC10 in practice *is* really just a jamless IS UAC5 that always doubletap on top.
An 4UAC5 Sleipnir were it given -jam% wouldn't really play that much different from the 4C-AC10 KDK-3/SR-1.

Though the latter having a lot less heat is admittedly a powercreep problem, of which I'd blame the last year's buff to C-AC10 being just a lazy HSL increase without more thought than that, just to enable the 4C-AC10 (plus two Plasma/C-ERPPC for 50 pinpoints) builds instead of addressing how detrimental the 2burst is in doing its job of being more accurate than the C-UAC10 that it shares the opportunity cost (tonnage and hardpoint type, worse slot though) with.

Edited by Ttly, 24 September 2025 - 11:56 AM.

[Bassault]

I cannot stand clan uac10+uac5 builds. Too much spraying too many pellets, too low velocity. An annihilator with 2uac10 2uac5 or fafnir just feels so nice and it's quite accurate. Idc about IS sacrifices like tonnage and range, it's worth it if I can actually hit **** and make them feel it when it all lands on the same component. You can even slam into light mechs with IS uac. The only decent clan UAC mech u can think of is the Dire wolf with the 2 uac10, 1 uac5, 2 erppc. It's all torso mounted and it has a velocity quirk so it feels nice. It has high alpha and good dps so its very nice.

Edited by Bassault, 24 September 2025 - 10:10 AM.

[KursedVixen]

kalashnikity, on 10 September 2025 - 06:18 PM, said:

IS bullshark seems too hot. Argent seems OP, but arm guns are low.

But there is a Bane build with "UAC10x3 + UAC5x3" and all high mounts.

kodiak with 4 10s

[kalashnikity]

Void Angel, on 20 September 2025 - 07:07 PM, said:

I have thought that I've seen that happen anecdotally, but I don't know of any testing that proves it. We'd have to test it with video of live matches, or in a private match, since it definitely does not happen in the testing grounds. If/when it does happen, I'd expect it to be related to network instability or packet loss, and that the jam chance is coded as being separate from the weapon firing - I'm sure I recall it happening to me, but memory and perception can be wonky that way; testing is needed to establish that it's actually happening - and especially at what prevalence.

I've clearly seen it happen to my self at least twice, I pulled the trigger and nothing happened- jammed. Hard to notice because usually we run multiple auto-cannons where a jam is less obvious.