122 replies to this topic

[Felbombling]

They were pretty static with the ammo loads. I always saw it as they were trying to give 1 ton the potential to do 100 armour damage. AC/20 ammo has 5 shots/ton, AC/10 ammo has 10 shots/ton, etc. I figure gauss rifles were 8 shots/ton at 15 damage a hit to line them up with LRM 15 launchers at 8 shots/ton with 15 missiles per salvo. Again, there we have the issue of shots/ton matching armour values in the game, were they to tweak them.

Edited by StaggerCheck, 04 January 2012 - 09:26 AM.

[MANUL]

Hmm. Are developers saying anything about possibility of ammo replenishing in the field?
P.S. Or, possibly, jettison weapon, ammunition for which is depleted, to increase combat mobility?

Edited by MANUL, 04 January 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[UncleKulikov]

Geist Null, on 03 January 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

i'm really hoping the ammo sticks to canon and that you are required 1 ton of ammo per weapon and not able to run 10 machine guns off 1 ton. thats an engineering nightmare.

In Tabletop you could do that. Machine guns were already bad enough, but for them all to require a dedicated ton (600 damage worth) of ammunition? That's plain stupid, for gameplay reasons. Making gameplay decisions based on engineering concerns isn't a good move, for a game.

Ammunition should be either doubled per ton or something like that, because Energy weapons already have such huge advantages over ballistics something needs to be done to bridge the gap.

[Liam]

MANUL, on 04 January 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Hmm. Are developers saying anything about possibility of ammo replenishing in the field?
P.S. Or, possibly, jettison weapon, ammunition for which is depleted, to increase combat mobility?

cool idea

[phalanx]

Liam, on 04 January 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

cool idea

We will have to wait for "Mech Warfare Month" for all that information.

[Thrask]

I know some people are very eager to see a strict adaptation of tabletop, or shall I say, interpretation of tabletop, however, it wouldn't make much sense when it comes to ammunition.

Many modern day combat vehicles have as much ammunition as they can pack; in say, a main battle tank, that generally equates to about 40-47 rounds (120mm, 125mm, etc). In an intense combat situation, one might be surprised how quickly that ammunition depletes.

Imagine the detriment to the average players fun (and I say average to mean the majority of players, not disrespectfully) -- to shoot five rounds out of that AC20 - of which they probably missed two or three times, and now the weapon system they counted on the most has become nothing more than a space/weight-occupying kitchen sink.

That isn't to say they should make it so nothing can ever run out of ammo, but the right balance (and by right, right = fun) is met. Use reasonability to balance the fun, but don't take away the fun by having hardly any ammo at all.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

A lot of people would say that's why the Hunchback pilot uses his lasers until he has a good shot and makes every one count. It's not as if you are going to be shooting at long range - max for an AC20 is 270m - if you cant hit a mech at that range you need to think of a different mech. Maybe something with energy weapons which are easier to use (as long as you manage your heat). Having said that, as somone who prefers ballistics I can always do with more ammo (as long as I can have CASE). Ammo explosions will ruin your day, which is why canny pilots target your side torso - it kills you quicker.

[Liam]

Thrask, on 04 January 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

I know some people are very eager to see a strict adaptation of tabletop, or shall I say, interpretation of tabletop, however, it wouldn't make much sense when it comes to ammunition.

Many modern day combat vehicles have as much ammunition as they can pack; in say, a main battle tank, that generally equates to about 40-47 rounds (120mm, 125mm, etc). In an intense combat situation, one might be surprised how quickly that ammunition depletes.

Imagine the detriment to the average players fun (and I say average to mean the majority of players, not disrespectfully) -- to shoot five rounds out of that AC20 - of which they probably missed two or three times, and now the weapon system they counted on the most has become nothing more than a space/weight-occupying kitchen sink.

That isn't to say they should make it so nothing can ever run out of ammo, but the right balance (and by right, right = fun) is met. Use reasonability to balance the fun, but don't take away the fun by having hardly any ammo at all.

40 rounds sounds realistic and not to much for AC10 (considering some missed hits). Hmm 30 rounds for AC20.
In case of UAC the ammunition should weight a bit less. I mean the reason to take a standard Auto Canon can be the range and weight.
UAC could be a good weapon for closer fights with more DPS, where range plays a secondary role. It makes also sense. Smaller and lighter shell (less propellant) of UAC would allow more ammo with reduced range.

Edited by Liam, 05 January 2012 - 05:08 AM.

[Virgil Caine]

Geist Null, on 03 January 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

i'm really hoping the ammo sticks to canon and that you are required 1 ton of ammo per weapon and not able to run 10 machine guns off 1 ton. thats an engineering nightmare.

In TT MG ammo had special rules, you could allocate it in half ton lots. And you COULD run 10 Machine Guns from a half-ton. (100 rounds) Look at any of tons of stock mechs. Warhammer/Phoenix Hawk, etc. All use only one ton and have multiple MGs.

Another rule was that you could put different types of ammunition in and switch between them, because of advanced loading mechanisms. This had to be done in full-ton increments though
AC = Standard/Cluster
LRM = Swarm/Standard

Pretty sure you also had to have special missiles to track NARC beacons.
And special missiles to take advantage of Artemis IV FCS
So you couldn't use both.

One more thing, in the optional rules there were rules for "One Shot" weapons. One of my favorites was an SRM2 (OS) With Inferno rounds... Use them to set fire to the environment, area denial and smoke for cover. It was great because once fired, you never had to worry about the volatile ammo exploding so easily.

[Zyllos]

I honestly think ammo numbers depends on the accuracy of weapons in-game.

If they are fairly accurate in their respective ranges, then I think the TT number of ammunition could easily work. But if the weapons are crazy inaccurate, then increasing ammo to compensate for having to hold the trigger longer to score a hit is needed. Then it turns into the issue of the potential of exploding ammo vs. having enough ammo to hit your targets.

[Ferrox]

Man that would be cool! Having different sorts of ammo on bord would change the game dramaticly!

As a Mad Dog pilot i could privide LRM firesupport for my star and the next second i could lay a minefield in the path of another enemy Lance. Sweet ^^

And the ammo per tonnage thing, in MW 3 it was well balanced.

Edited by Ferrox, 16 January 2012 - 04:13 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

@Ferrox -Not for over a year you won't - they don't invade until well after launch.

[Mason Grimm]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 05 January 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

@Ferrox -Not for over a year you won't - they don't invade until well after launch.

No so long as one would think.

If memory serves, the clans begin the invasion (Periphery action) in August of 3049.

It is now January of 3049.

If the game releases in the summer (we'll say July 1st for a nice random date) then that leaves just over a month to prepare for the coming of the Tube Tots.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Only on the edge of the Periphery, they won't be seen in the Inner Sphere for nearly a year after that.

[Durant Carlyle]

I think the game play should be based more on canon/MW2/TT than anything else. Ammunition amount per ton shouldn't be increased just because some players can't hit the broad side of a barn.

*MG ammo can be purchased in half-ton or full-ton lots, but it is the only ammo with that ability.

*Everything else should be purchased in full-ton lots, with the amount per ton adhering to canon/MW2/TT rules.

*Different ammo types are also added in a full-ton basis, so if you want Standard and Cluster for your LB-X you need to have at least two tons of ammo. They also need to be specified in advance, so you cannot change your mind in the middle of a mission that you wanted two tons of Standard instead of one ton of Standard and one ton of Cluster. You can change out ammo types in the 'Mech Bay and/or whatever in-the-field ammo stations the devs come up with, if they have such a thing.

*You can have multiple weapons of the same size and type feeding from the same lot of ammo. If your 'Mech has two LRM-15s and one LRM-20, you would need one lot of X ton(s) of ammo for the -15s and one lot of Y ton(s) for the -20.

*If you have special launchers (Streak, Artemis, etc.) you'd better make sure you have the right ammo, otherwise it either won't work at all or you get no benefit from it.

*You can jettison ammo from the 'Mech at any time, to avoid ammo explosions. Mainly used when critical hits take out the weapon but leave the ammo intact. This does nothing for your speed/mobility, even if you jettison 10 tons of ammo. Just like if you lose the arm where your Gauss Rifle is mounted, you don't suddenly gain speed.

*Jettison weapons? No. Weapons are expensive, and can be repaired if damaged.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 05 January 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[Leutnant Schmidt]

I have an idea for the ammunition problem. We have to see the ac´s like giant assault rifles with magazines. In the tabletop each shot of an ac is a full magazine. Maybe 5 shots per magazine, 5 shots per ton. And now you can choose, if you want so shoot in single fire or burst fire and you only have to reload, if the magazine is empty. So a mech with one ton of ac20 ammunition has 5 magazines, but 25 shots alltogether in a ton.

[Yeach]

Ammunition amounts should be directly based on rate of fire.
MW3 ammunition loadouts for the UAC20 didn't feel right. For a C6 game I had to double to triple the regular amount (say from 10 rounds to 30 rounds or 6 tons of ammo) to actually feel like I could do sufficient damage in a multiplayer game.
MW4 ammunition seemed more realistic in that it provide "x" amount of fire duration (although it lacked ammo explosions)

My idea was to have larger calibres fire faster rather than the current method (MW2/MW4) having smaller calibre fire faster.
So for example AC5, AC10 and AC20 and each round of ammo does 5 damage. Each bin would hold 20 rounds.
AC20 would fire twice as fire as an AC10 which would be twice as fast as an AC5. Say each standardized period is 10 seconds
AC5 fires every 10 secs and uses up 20 rounds (20 /1 = 20)
AC10 fires every 5 secs (twice every period) and uses 10 rounds (20 / 2 = 10 )
AC20 fires every 2.5 secs (four time every period) thus every period appears to hold only 5 rounds (20 / 4 = 5)

[Mutuh]

I like the idea of having several types of ammunition for the same weapon on-board.

[LordKnightFandragon]

VYCanis, on 03 January 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

And considering the atlas's ac20 in the trailer, and how most BT ACs are described as firing multiple shots per ammo unit, it would make sense that AC ammo counts are adjusted accordingly, rather than taken painfully literally.

That was an AC20? I had it figured for an AC2 or 5 lolz....

[Bernardo Sinibaldi]

Thrask, on 04 January 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Many modern day combat vehicles have as much ammunition as they can pack; in say, a main battle tank, that generally equates to about 40-47 rounds (120mm, 125mm, etc). In an intense combat situation, one might be surprised how quickly that ammunition depletes.

I'm with Thrask on this and think that some form of conversion is required. As stated, modern tanks seem to favour 40-50 rounds of large calibre (AC20 equivalent?) and if we go further back in history to WW2 you'd find tanks carrying anything from 50-100 rounds of smaller (76-88mm, AC10?) ammunition. Smaller calibres tended to have larger ammo counts - much like they do in TT.

It's always been a bit of a mystery as to how each round of AC/10 ammo could weigh about 90kg (1 ton / 10) with AC/20 tipping the scales at 180kg. My understanding of modern ammunition is that even a 120mm round is only going to come in at 15-25kg depending on exact type.

I'd therefore like to see "more realistic" ammo loads but I absolutely still want the additional stress of managing ammunition - I don't want an effectively unlimited load. When I take that AC shot I want to be balancing the solid amount of damage to a single location versus the risks inherent in using up the dwindling supply of ammo. As a merc, I also want to have the cost of replacement ammo in the back of my mind but that's a separate issue.

Edited by Bernardo Sinibaldi, 10 January 2012 - 08:21 AM.