16 replies to this topic

[aglarang]

Hi everybody.
I have been watching and reading the boards as most of us do. I eagerly anticipate this game and cannot wait for it to come out.
I will be Draconis Combine come hell or high water and I look forward to fighting alongside you guys.

Enough of that. I have some concerns about how they (Piranha) are going to implement the clans and what that means for us. My biggest fear is that the clans are implemented following canon and they are given a technologic superiority. The devs have apparently hinted in a podcast (I didn't hear it, only heard about it second hand) that they will balance fights based on numbers. So, smaller numbers of Clanners versus higher numbers of IS. I have a number of concerns and I want to bring them here because you cannot have this discussion on the Clan board without them telling you it will be fair and they are all honorable, blah blah blah.
1) In these types of games, with unbalanced tech/abilities, the higher/better tech eventually wins out. Maybe not always, but usually.
2) Clans having superior tech will result in two things.
a) A sizable part of the population going to the clans. My experience in MMOs/Online games is that there is a large portion of the populace who will play the winning side so they do not lose, are the most powerful, don't get facestomped all the time, etc. Now, since the games will be size limited, this may not be as much of an issue as it would be in an openworld pvp type of mmo (See Warhammer Online.) But, it will mean more players on the clan side and that may cause an imbalance over time if there are not enough IS players to fight all the fights.
Some who are diehard clans will complain that there was no Trial for all these freeborns getting in. (Never mind that they have no more or less right to be clan than any one else.) If you look at the clan boards, there are so many calls to have trials and limit the number of people who can be clan. I find this amusing because I guarantee that almost 100% of those people assume they would be the ones to pass the trials and would complain the loudest that it isn't fair if they lose out on being clan somehow.

Anyway, I think what it boils down to is that I do not think the devs can implement the clans with a real technological advantage without running the real risk of killing this game. People will quit if:
1) They feel they don't have a chance of winning because of a built in inequity
2) They feel they don't have a chance to be the guy in the game with the built in inequity
3) One side is being consistently slaughtered by the other
4) One side has overwhelming numbers (maybe not an issue here but the correlation:) or one side has to wait for a long period of time to get into a game. (5000 clanners online versus 1000 IS so the queue for clanner games to come up is 5 times as long. Will they switch to IS or go play something else since they cannot get their Timberwolf with the ERLarge lasers and the Clan LRM20s with more range, better heat management, and better armor than the IS Marauder with its PPCS and AC5?)

Anyway, I just worry about the clan implementation and think the devs run a huge risk here. Casual players will quit in droves if they feel the game is not unfair in their direction. DIehard clanners will quit if they do not get the advantages they think they deserve and those advantages are only given to them. This is a minefield for Piranha if they do not have a good solution.

Thoughts? Am I worried over nothing? Am I making too big a deal over things? My thoughts come from my experience in MMOs over many years as well as games where there are varying levels of tech, but it is all available to every player.

[Thorn Hallis]

I think its way to early to think about anything clan-related. Its well over a year to go.

[Selena Kerensky]

Balancing is allways a problem in MMOs, good idea would be not allow heavy or assault Omnis at the beginning, or let the clan players fight for frontline mechs in Trials, so i wouldn't be an: I make a new char and get better mech instantly.

[Stormwolf]

I'm hoping for a rather stict filtering on who can and can't join the Clans. There should be a "Sibko Training camp" of sorts with challenges you have to pass. It's not that I don't want people to have Clan tech, I don't want people to screw up my favorite faction and thus my experience of the game.

Edited by Stormwolf, 06 January 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[Wraith 1]

2 things that will ruin this game for me:
1. Not being able to acquire a good clan heavy for my command 'mech.
2. Seeing a thousand stupid 'Clan *#RAinBoWLOLZpwnsyoufacePoNyMeX' factions full of 6 year olds using laserboats.

As long as the dev's can figure out how to balance that, I'll be happy with pretty much whatever they come out with.

[Stormwolf]

Wraith-1, on 06 January 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

2. Seeing a thousand stupid 'Clan *#RAinBoWLOLZpwnsyoufacePoNyMeX' factions full of 6 year olds using laserboats.

Seyla!

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Quote

1) In these types of games, with unbalanced tech/abilities, the higher/better tech eventually wins out. Maybe not always, but usually.

maybe not. for example been playing Quake wars recently and i noticed the strogg (superrior tech) often loose to GDF(inferrior tech) who have superrior resources and better perks. just an example here, a GDF medic can drop 3 med packs that will decay after 30 seconds + he can acess a perk that allows him an extra med pack, not to mention he gets to drop a supply crate and also access to a perk to allow a second supply crate drop. there is also the fact single GDF medic can revive an entire fallen team where as strogg take sevral seconds to revive a single person.

my point is, depending how the devs approach the skill trees for I.S maybe they will get the superrior skill tree and clan will get an inferrior skill tree. or maybe the I.S will get specialties to combat the supperiro clan forces. (sorry for the rant)

Quote

4) One side has overwhelming numbers

maybe the devs will use the star wars ToR system where imperial and republic fight in mixed teams so ive been told, or even allow a force team balance feature? annoyingly enough though with or with out thoes features, there will always be one unblanaced team mainly due to rage quitters. so there should be a reward system of sorts inplace for the team thats under manned, some sort of player/score/bonus modifier. alterntivly force x players onto the opposite team to balance the numbers.

Quote

3) One side is being consistently slaughtered by the other

thats team work its usualy the players with the tags playing against pubbers that dish out the consistant slaughtering and joyless game experience seriorsuly, if i understand it correctly, the system will distrbute players evenly according to there XP rating. never usualy works out this way however. hopefully PGI will do it properly.

personaly its down to players. of course people will run over to the winning team, of course people will rage quit becuase a urbanmech took his dire wolf down.

imo the problem isnt with the clans. its the players they obviosuly want to go for the posotives and not the negatives. imo the devs just have to make a pritty damm appealing insentive to keep the populations from migrating. for example...

free star league mechs for all who stay in the inner sphere would stay with a merc unit to get me a flashman or crab but seriosuly thats just me and my opinion, i think its players not the clan or there tech people simply hate to loose :\

p.* *** the save button accidently ><

Edited by Kodiak Jorgensson, 06 January 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[GaussDragon]

Stormwolf, on 06 January 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

I'm hoping for a rather stict filtering on who can and can't join the Clans. There should be a "Sibko Training camp" of sorts with challenges you have to pass. It's not that I don't want people to have Clan tech, I don't want people to screw up my favorite faction and thus my experience of the game.

Ya but what happens when the the best pilots who don't care about RP flood into the clan ranks and do whatever suits them? I think RP-ers should stay somewhat grounded in that it should taken for granted that not everyone cares about roleplay, nor should they be forced to.

[GaussDragon]

aglarang, on 06 January 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Some who are diehard clans will complain that there was no Trial for all these freeborns getting in. (Never mind that they have no more or less right to be clan than any one else.) If you look at the clan boards, there are so many calls to have trials and limit the number of people who can be clan. I find this amusing because I guarantee that almost 100% of those people assume they would be the ones to pass the trials and would complain the loudest that it isn't fair if they lose out on being clan somehow.

QFT. This. Nail --> head. This happens in every faction, not just clans. There's a very bad streak of entitlement that runs through this community, that somehow some people should be given certain role privileges over others, without displaying any merit within the game in terms of skill. There are going to be TONS of angry people because there are going to be tons of better pilots who are going to outclass them by such an order of magnitude it won't even be funny. We've seen it before, we will see it again.

[Xavier Truscott]

Considering it's going to be a summer (or somewhere close to it) launch by what they are projecting, and the first clan attacks started on august 12, 3049, it's not as far off as some would think.

3050 was the year of the TRO, not the year the clans first showed up, by the time the TRO was timelinewise published, the clans had already taken a good amount of worlds.

As far as:

Stormwolf, on 06 January 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

I'm hoping for a rather stict filtering on who can and can't join the Clans. There should be a "Sibko Training camp" of sorts with challenges you have to pass. It's not that I don't want people to have Clan tech, I don't want people to screw up my favorite faction and thus my experience of the game.

and

Wraith-1, on 06 January 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

2 things that will ruin this game for me:
1. Not being able to acquire a good clan heavy for my command 'mech.
2. Seeing a thousand stupid 'Clan *#RAinBoWLOLZpwnsyoufacePoNyMeX' factions full of 6 year olds using laserboats.

As long as the dev's can figure out how to balance that, I'll be happy with pretty much whatever they come out with.

It is wrong, no matter how you look at it, to try to restrict people from entering a faction, clan or otherwise, based on your perception of who deserves it, and i'm pretty sure that you won't be able to make up your own clan of Rainbow Ponies, or even join thier equivilent (Hells Horses) when the clans do show up. There were only 4 initial clans in the invasion.

The Devs have also stated that your mechs would not be restricted in choice, so no worries that too many "freebirth scum" wouldn't effect your mech selection because that Dire Wolf is out of stock.

Leave it to the Devs to balance the clans and the people to decide where they want to be. Personally, i played the role of Khan for Star Adder in many campaigns for TT, and for a while in MW3, which is where i got my bloodname, but for this game, will likely stay in an IS faction just to shoot at all the people who think that getting a shiny, overpowered, and ugly as sin clan mech will make them a more skilled pilot.

Edited by Xavier Truscott, 06 January 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[Caballo]

I can't really see the point in discussing such a fact. I'm standing at the following position: By now I am (as all the rest of mechwarriors) an Inner sphere fighter, periphery as the farest. I'll deal with the clans when they arrive. period.

I prefer to believe they developers will implement a simple and fair system when we reach the time of the invasion to give (or not) the players the posibility of "changing the jacket" and pass to the clans, But that's future tense, so i'll simply wait without heating up my mind with subjects i can't control.

[Frantic Pryde]

As I stated in another thread, have faith in the devs. Everything they are saying seems to indicate they got the right idea. Listen to the three steps ahead podcast and I think you will feel better. They are not just going to sit idly by and let people ruin this game. Not to mention, the emphasis on teamwork and role warfare being emphasized and the statement that bigger isin't better thatbthey have been saying. I'm certain the same goes for tech. In short, this game game will not be an arms race. Several good ideas have been stated by the community and the devs. There will be balance. Rest assured

[Tifalia]

I just really hope that we can participate in the Battle of Tukayyid at some point.
Ever since watching the ending video of MechWarrior 2: Mercenaries and reading the Legend of the Jade Phoenix trilogy (so very long ago now) I have always wanted the chance to take part in that battle, especially against Clan Ghost Bear.

[MonkeyDCecil]

The Best way to handle the Clans is to NPC their *****. That is let no on play them. At least not at first. AI those bad boys..

[Frantic Pryde]

MonkeyDCecil, on 06 January 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

The Best way to handle the Clans is to NPC their *****. That is let no on play them. At least not at first. AI those bad boys..

No way. There are a lot of us that are die hard clansmen. Telling me my clan is a part of the game but I can't join would probably cause me to stop supporting the game. There are so many options for people who enjoy the clans for non munchkin reasons to be able to play in a balanced way that it would be downright stupid to not open the clans to players.

And besides, AI sucks, if I was playing an IS faction when the clans invade I would want them to be players. There is simply no AI that is as challenging and fun as a real human opponent. I would want the invasion to be scary and a major challenge to overcome.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

GaussDragon, on 06 January 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

QFT. This. Nail --> head. This happens in every faction, not just clans. There's a very bad streak of entitlement that runs through this community, that somehow some people should be given certain role privileges over others, without displaying any merit within the game in terms of skill. There are going to be TONS of angry people because there are going to be tons of better pilots who are going to outclass them by such an order of magnitude it won't even be funny. We've seen it before, we will see it again.

why I've been ranting about why clan tech is OP
anyone can take these nice toys in any of the games at their leisure
no one earns them from any 'test' and no one has the right to stop
others by administering a 'test' or 'sibko' bs

either everyone gets the toys; or no one gets the toys and if it means
that everyone gets the toys - I say bring on the insanity!

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 06 January 2012 - 11:34 PM.

[Stormwolf]

MonkeyDCecil, on 06 January 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

The Best way to handle the Clans is to NPC their *****. That is let no on play them. At least not at first. AI those bad boys..

Sorry, but I really don't want to get cheated out of my faction while the entire IS fanbase gets to pick theirs.
For that matter, we also need Comstar, periphery and pirate factions down the road, those guys have more fans then let's say the FWL.