13 replies to this topic

[Liam]

I already posted in my wall of text someday, but well I try it again in hopefully better way

I know long tom did some splash damage in MW4, I’m not sure about LBX damage mechanic (I used mostly UAC), but anyway. Why not to implement splash damage to all weapons which supposed to be based on splash damage? The same story for armor penetration (or call it hits to internal structure). This should be specific for each weapon to allow more balancing and also advanced tactics.

Here is one of possible solutions (% values for armor penetration are RNG based / all numbers only for orientation):

Lasers:
Armor penetration: 30 %
Additional penetration damage: - 70 % of base damage
Splash damage: -
Splash damage radius: -
Special: -

PPC:
Armor penetration: 5 %
Additional penetration damage: +25 %
Splash damage: decreasing
Splash damage radius: low
Special: +40% “armor penetration” damage only to electronics / EMP effect for 1 sec.

Gauss:
Armor penetration: 45 %
Additional penetration damage: - 75 % of base damage
Splash damage: insignificant
Splash damage radius: insignificant
Special: high kinetic impact (strong knock back effect)

AC (pierce rounds):
Armor penetration: 60 %
Additional penetration damage: - 85 % of base damage
Splash damage: -
Splash damage radius: -
Special: high kinetic impact (strong knock back effect)

AC (HE rounds):
Armor penetration: 5 %
Additional penetration damage: +10 % of base damage
Splash damage: high
Splash damage radius: high
Special: -

LBX:
Armor penetration: 5 %
Additional penetration damage: - 30 % of base damage
Splash damage: very high (same as base damage / it is more spread than splash damage)
Splash damage radius: very high
Special: -

LRM (HE) similar to AC (HE), maybe a version of LRM with hollow explosive charge (a bit similar to KE mechanic with low knock back effect):

However in this case more hit boxes will be probably needed, to balance all weapons with penetration and splash damage. Maybe the balance of the weapons would be even easier.
The increase in number of hit boxes could be relatively low. For example 4 segments per TT hit zone (-> 4 hit boxes on CT).

EDIT 2:

Implementation of armor modifiers against specific weapon types would not require RNG anymore.
Penetration damage could be implemented by:
dmg = (base damage)*(weapon modifier)*(armor modifier)


Splash damge would be added to close by hit zones depending on weapon type.

However additional penetration damage need to be changed then to:

Additional penetration damage: additional bonus damage to hit boxes.

Edited by Liam, 07 January 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[Liam]

I personally don’t like the idea of RNG based stuff, that’s why additional penetration damage is in some cases negative, otherwise full damage will go through to internal structure and targeted mechs will be destroyed quickly (with TT hit zones). Maybe the situation will be totally different with split hit boxes.

I think all weapons should have a knock back effect (depending on weapon type and size). Gauss and AC pierce rounds are here special due to kinetic impact.

Edited by Liam, 06 January 2012 - 08:47 PM.

[Halfinax]

Meh, I think that damage should mostly be location specific, but I don't mind if there are minor effects beyond damage based on the type of weapon used. Missles should have a higher crit chance, but lower through armor penetration chance. Ballistic weapons should have a higher through armor penitration chance, but lower splash damage chance, and energy weapons should have a higher splash damage chance, but lower penetration chance.

the basis for this is that missles hit a single location and explode therefore creating a large splash radius, but low level of penetration. Ballistic weapons should have a higher penetration damage, but low splash damage as they are focused on a single point of impact. Energy weapons should have a high splash damage, but low penetration due to the fact that they likely spread their damage across multiple sectors, but have limited penetration.

In addition Missile weapons should be most effective in critical locations as they explode on impact. Ballistics should have the smallest impact on critical locations, as they have little to no drag or explosive impact, and Lasers should have a moderate impact on criticals, as they have a large drag effect, but no explosive effect on impact.

[Liam]

Halfinax I think word "critical" doesn't fit in my explanation.
need to be changed ... thanks!

Do you mean by critical damage as additional damage? Something like in fantasy games? Crits on spells etc. which doubles the damage?

I think there is big potential and need to be discussed.

In case of energy weapons and splash damage PPC would probably have small splash (spread damage) if it will work like as LIPC (Laser Induced Plasma Channel). And laser is going to be point weapon (in optimum case). Pulse laser could spread damage over couple hit zones (due to aiming problem).

Edited by Liam, 06 January 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[UncleKulikov]

Lasers shouldn't have splash damage or impact force.

I don't like the idea of armor penetration, that's the whole point of the armor in battletech. You have to strip it off before you can damage the vulnerable internal structure, making accuracy paramount. Not just spamming shots in the hope of a critical hit.

Edited by UncleKulikov, 06 January 2012 - 09:02 PM.

[Liam]

UncleKulikov radiation pressure still exist. I didn't done any calculations yet (let say on MW laser), but probably it would be very low.

Edited by Liam, 06 January 2012 - 09:07 PM.

[Fooooo]

I'd prefer no RNG, but would like some sort of system similar to PotBS (pirates of the burning sea).....at least for munition based weapons (not missles, tho you could for balance purposes)

Basically damage lerps from max (100%) dmg at 0yards to min dmg at 600+yards (not sure what the min % is).


Splash damage for explosive weapons im sure will be in , in some form.

Criticals, hmm, not caused by RNG, I'd like it sorta like WoT, if your shell physically hits a module, it will destroy it if its HP is low enough or damage it ie a critical. Ammo explosions are also somthing im not sure about, a RNG determining wither I lose all my ammo and blow up isnt really fun...but having a projectile physically hit my shell and blowing it up isnt so bad to me.

Lasers splash I don't see any reasoning for that, they are pinpoint weapons....although, if they use a complex heat system you could say have lasers create a "heat splash" that would spread heat into parts it didnt physically hit....tho I doubt they would do that.

[per4mer]

Foòóoo, on 07 January 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

I'd prefer no RNG, but would like some sort of system similar to PotBS (pirates of the burning sea).....at least for munition based weapons (not missles, tho you could for balance purposes)

Basically damage lerps from max (100%) dmg at 0yards to min dmg at 600+yards (not sure what the min % is).


Splash damage for explosive weapons im sure will be in , in some form.

Criticals, hmm, not caused by RNG, I'd like it sorta like WoT, if your shell physically hits a module, it will destroy it if its HP is low enough or damage it ie a critical. Ammo explosions are also somthing im not sure about, a RNG determining wither I lose all my ammo and blow up isnt really fun...but having a projectile physically hit my shell and blowing it up isnt so bad to me.

Lasers splash I don't see any reasoning for that, they are pinpoint weapons....although, if they use a complex heat system you could say have lasers create a "heat splash" that would spread heat into parts it didnt physically hit....tho I doubt they would do that.

I was going to suggest the same thing but you worded it way better than I could have. I would add is that range should play a significant role in damage. I always loved using a fast mech, charging in to meduim or short range and using long range missiles for max damage...

That said I think there should be a clear difference between limb damage and modular damage. I really want this to play like an updated MPBT: Solaris meets WoT. A severely damaged mech should only be defeated once the cockpit is destroyed. If it is heavily disabled the pilot should have the option to eject. So at the end of battle, there can be penalties against salvageable parts and bonuses on damaged parts to prevent people from rage quitting. So if, for example, I kept shooting at a leg with missiles (or HE AC rounds), your mech would eventually fall, but that mech would still be able to fire from the ground with whatever weapon modules that weren't harmed from the fall. On the flip side, I shot at its legs with lasers (or AP AC rounds) the limb wouldnt be as damaged, but its more likely to damage any weapon (or armor) modules mounted in the leg targeted. So I guess what I am saying is that AP and HE would be inverse to each other. So some weapons/rounds will be more effective at disabling/destroying mech limbs, others at disabling/destroying modules. I think knockback should be reserved for very few, very exceptionally powerful weapons. One of my favorite kills ever was disabling a humanoid mech shooting its legs, it fell forward. To save ammo I walked over its cockpit suffering minor leg damage but it was totally worth it for the ego boost

As for critical hits, it should be related to module/limb destruction and depending on what was critically hit its has catastrophic results. If I were to critically hit a missile launcher, it would be a catastrophic explosion involving the ammunition exploding, the resulting explosion sending shrapnel (splash damage) out as well as damaging/overheating all adjacent weapons as a result of the catastrophic explosion.

As for laser splash; two words, reflective armor.

[Liam]

Another solution without RNG could be achived by implementing armor modifiers to each armor type.
The penetration rate could represent then the ability of the weapon how it penetrates specific armor.

In case of the game mechanic (damage mechanic) the armour would have not only hitpoint but also the "armor value", a modifier which indicates resestivity against weapons. (maybe 2-3 modifiers: kinetic / energy / HE damage etc.)
Armor penetraion modifer of the weapon would then specify how good a weapon destroy specific armor (striping hit points from the armour standard armor).
dmg = (base damage)*(weapon modifier)*(armor modifier)

As example (imaginary values just as example to clarify the mechanic):

Standard armor with 16 hit points has armor value of 2 (reducing penetration damage by 20 %[by decreasing the damage])
That means a laser with 40% penetration would do normaly 45% increased damage but due to armor modifier only 20% additional penetration damage (no internal damage). So a laser with 14 damage points will make: 14*1.45*0.8=16.24 total damage and destroy this armor section. 0.24 damage will go through to internal structure, engine what ever ...

And let say PPC with 18 base damage and only 5 % penetration damage will make only: 18*1.05*1.2 = 15.2 total damage. So 0.8 armor hit points left ...

Additional modifiers could be also implemented to other armour types such as reflective armor aganist energy weapons etc.

I think same analogy will be used in fantasy games (where armor is usually present in the game and different damage types). I simply can't believe that fantasy games like Titan Quest, WoW etc. have more complicated damage model due to different damage types than MechWarrior games! This is ridiculous :/

Spread/splash damage need to be compensated by penetration damage.

Edited by Liam, 07 January 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[Liam]

Update: New solution!

Splash type of damage:

[Weapon]...[splash dmg]...[splash radius]
LBX 2 ……..…100…….... 0.75
LBX 5 ……..…100…….... 1.00
LBX 10 ….......100…….... 1.25
LBX 20 ……....100…….....1,50
AC 2 (HE) …...20……..... 0.20
AC 5 (HE) …...30…….. ...0.60
AC 10 (HE) .....40……..... 0.90
AC 20 (HE) .....50…….. ...1,10
LRM (HE) …....60…….. ...0.80
MRM (HE) …...75……...... 0.80
SRM (HE) …...70…….. ....0.80

[splash dmg] in % of the base damage
[splash radius] in m, considering an average mech being ~ 9 m high.

Other weapons are not so significant. UAC same as AC!?
LBX is more is more spread damage.

Penetration damage types:
Laser / Particle / AP / HE

Laser damage type represents all laser weapons. Particle represents all PPC types. To AP weapons belong AC with pierce rounds, Gauss rounds (not sure about UAC/LBX rounds TT wise). HE or HEAA (anti armor) includes HE AC rounds, LRM, SRM and MRM warheads.

Armor types:
Standard / Ferro Fibrous / Reflective / Reactive

How the damage could be affected by weapon penetration?

[Total weapon damage] = (weapon base damage)*(weapon penetration modifier)*(armor modifier)

Armor modifier...Laser..Particle ....AP .... HE
Standard………..(0.9) ... (1.0) ... (0.9)....(1.0)
Ferro Fibrous..…(1.0) ... (1.1) ....(0.8) ...(0.9)
Reflective……….(0.8) ....(0.8) ... (1.1) ...(1.1)
Reactive………...(1.1) ... (0.9) ... (1.0) ...(0.8)

Armor modifier rating against weapon types:
(0.8) - excellent
(0.9) - good
(1.0) - average
(1.1) - bad

Weapons modifier rating against armor types:
(0.8) - bad
(0.9) - average
(1.0) - good
(1.1) - excellent

Weapon penetration modifier:
Laser: ……..(1.35)
PPC: ……....(1.0)
Gauss: …….(1.32)
AC (AP): …..(1.5)
AC (HE): …..(1.0)
LRM (HE): ...(1.0)

SRM and MRM are similar to LRM. About LBX I was not really sure because I don’t know TT description of it.
-----------------------------------------------
However all modifiers are just for orientation. By implementing more hit boxes splash damage will be very interesting. Penetration should compensate the splash damage. Each weapon can be tweaked easiely by changing heat, base damage or penetration modifier. Enough room for balancing.

I mean all this magic fantasy games have alot of different damage types (frost damage / fire damage / penetration damage / poisson damage etc) and MW cant be so simplified <.<

[per4mer]

I love the effort you put into this Liam, the numbers look amazing! I for one am looking forward to getting up to speed with the lore and table top rules.

I really like the way the numbers look as you presented them, but the another challenge to that model is how does distance play a role? Also What are your thoughts about each ammo type having special properties, such as: lasers damage modules, HE damages/overheats weapons, AP perhaps ignores armor layers damages limbs, and particle is more likely to blow off a limb?

[Liam]

Thank you per4mer, I though no one is interested in it.
I done some example calculations, so the numbers came from short optimization.

The range influence can be also implemented, for example in case of Lasers (dispersion etc reducing the base damage) or ACs with pierce rounds (less velocity > less kinetic energy > less base damage or less peneration damage). This requires additional modifiers. Each projectile would need damage depending on lifetime (flight time indirectly).

This is actually a good idea for HE ammunition, and makes sense. I think Long tom added some amount of heat to the target (but I'm not completely sure).

APs rounds which ignore armor layers can be specified by RNG, for example 35 % armor penetration chance (full damage transfer to IS). It would have a huge impact to the game (lucky engine hits). But I think majority don't want this. I think penetration as specified damage could be accepted by players. Or to allow the full penetration only for arms and legs and limb areas (disabling actuators joints etc.).

It depends on how the rest of mech structure is specified or described.
I think in TT internal structure of the mechs is something like a skeleton (I'm not sure about it). To me the internal structure is base armor (a base case, with some own armor) where all electronics actuators etc. are placed inside. The final armor plates are placed then on IS providing additional protection ... but maybe it is only me.
However by giving some more hit points to engine and internal structure real penetration mechanic (of armor) could be used, where AP round penetrates CT armor and damages IS first. (second hit > engine).

Quote

I don't like the idea of armor penetration, that's the whole point of the armor in battletech. You have to strip it off before you can damage the vulnerable internal structure, making accuracy paramount. Not just spamming shots in the hope of a critical hit.

It depends on, how fine damage model of the armor is.
If CT consist of separate 8 hit boxes, then it should work (balancing of penetration by weapons accuracy and possible splash damage). Otherwise on single CT hit boxes the whole mechanic of penetration and splash is not really necessary.

I think there only two solutions:
>Armor segmentation + Armor penetration / splash damage (correlation)
>Or none of both

Edited by Liam, 13 January 2012 - 06:13 PM.

[Halfinax]

Liam, on 06 January 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Halfinax I think word "critical" doesn't fit in my explanation.
need to be changed ... thanks!

Do you mean by critical damage as additional damage? Something like in fantasy games? Crits on spells etc. which doubles the damage?

I think there is big potential and need to be discussed.

In case of energy weapons and splash damage PPC would probably have small splash (spread damage) if it will work like as LIPC (Laser Induced Plasma Channel). And laser is going to be point weapon (in optimum case). Pulse laser could spread damage over couple hit zones (due to aiming problem).

No I mean Critical as in defined by the BT boardgame where referring to a specific component underneath the armor. i.e. ammo, weapons, jumpjets etc..

Also I think energy weapons should be "splash" damage as a laser doesn't infer all of it's energy at a single moment on a single point. On a moving target the beam of energy would travel across the surface of its target as the target moves, therefore the damage would be spread out across the entirety of the surface rather than on a single point.

A laser heats up it's target and eventually burns through it, but if the target is moving then that heating effect is impacted across a wider area.

Edited by Halfinax, 13 January 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

possible i don't get it. But as far as i know battletech armor consists different layers each adsorb different type of damage.
one for stopping heat weapons like laser, another layer for stopping ballistic weapons.

While it is in general ablative - when a plate is hit the armor neutralizing the energy but is destroyed on the other hand.
Different layer gave a mech a really good overall protection.
using penetration means that some layers would turn useless... (did anybody knew armored grid?)

How it could work:
a laser hit the front plate of a mech and burns through the hard outer layer of the armor till it is adsorbed by the second "reflective" layer.
hiting the same plate with ballistics...will result in a shattered reflective layer that may create an even larger hole outer armor protection

so a good mix of weapons would be better as using only the same types of weapons with a little buff for ballistics and missiles because they may use HEAT weapons that use a heat spike to penetrate the hard outer layer...

hope my point is understandable