116 replies to this topic

[Snowcaller]

I'd like an effect like a blue or white (or something) beam weapon that flashes up in an instant, the degenerates into electrical stuff.
With a big sparky bang thing on impact and a muzzle flash.
Add a really high pitched crack accompanied with a bassy thump a fraction of a second afterwards...
Plus make the mech wobble slightly with the force of firing it.

That's my 2c

[Solis Obscuri]

Zervziel, on 17 January 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

If we do get the lightning-like PPC I want the ability paint the likeness of William Wallace's @ss on the muzzle.

You want to put a picture of Mel Gibson... bent over... with his kilt hiked up... on your fist????

Liam, on 17 January 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

I hope you know how much energy you will be needed to accelerate only 1 g of matter to relativistic speed 1 g of matter to bring at speed of 100 km/s would require > 5 MJ

Fyrwulf, on 17 January 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

That's... Not a lot of energy. It's only a bit less than 1400 watt/hr of energy and there are modern PC power supplies that can do that. That's also the power a modern 120mm KEP delivers when fired by an M1A2 Abrams. That same amount of matter accelerated to 1% of the speed of light would require 4,494 megajoules, which is about 1,250 kw/hr and well within the range of modern diesel generators. And these things are powered by fusion plants.

So why are we still sitting around discussing this? Let's go accelerate some particles!!!

[Outlaw2]

+1 the version in the recent trailer

[Black Mamba]

I also like how they did the PPC effects in the 2009 trailer. It just needs a really dramatic sound to match it.

[Longinus Leichenberg]

I also lean toward realistic PPC, so a trail of lightning with a tremendous "Pewww!" bolt and a thunderclap would be more to my liking. I'm also wondering if it should be more of an EMP-style tactical weapon that also rapes the systems of the opponent. I mean, it's a huge electric jolt running through the whole enemy 'mech, isn't it?

EDIT:

Solis Obscuri, on 24 January 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

You want to put a picture of Mel Gibson... bent over... with his kilt hiked up... on your fist????


So why are we still sitting around discussing this? Let's go accelerate some particles!!!

Yeah, I'll be at CERN.

Edited by Longinus Leichenberg, 25 January 2012 - 12:42 AM.

[Lima Zulu]

PPC shouldn't be a bolt or laser-like beam definitely - both of it have no travel time PPC always had in MW games. MW:LL was already mentioned as having nice PPC effects.

on 10 second

[Strum Wealh]

Lima Zulu, on 25 January 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

PPC shouldn't be a bolt or laser-like beam definitely - both of it have no travel time PPC always had in MW games. MW:LL was already mentioned as having nice PPC effects.

on 10 second

That is a rather nice visual effect, for what would be a "ball-type" PPC.

In fact, earlier in the thread I proposed there being different visual effects as a result of "brand/make/model":

Strum Wealh, on 13 January 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Perhaps there might be different brands and makes/models might fire a bolt (the ball effect) while others fire a beam (the stream effect), as well as having other effects...

Example:

• Manga Hellstar Mk.I PPC fires a bolt/ball of particles at slightly-shorter-than-average range while producing higher recoil on the firing 'Mech, more "knock" against the target, and more-intense-than-average HUD static.
  
• Ceres Arms Smasher Mk.I PPC fires a "lightning bolt" at a slightly-longer-than-average range while producing lower recoil on the firing 'Mech, less "knock" against the target, and less-intense-than-average HUD static.
  
• Kinslaughter Mk.I PPC fires a stream/beam at average range, produces average recoil, produces average knock and average HUD static, but the beam has an extended duration (1.0-1.5 sec) and continuous damage across the beam's duration (as opposed to the damage being "front-loaded") that can can be "walked" over a target (or across targets) like a MW3 pulse laser or MW4 LCBL.

And so on.

Mk. II and up would improve some aspect or aspects of the base model (but not all aspects).

Damage per salvo and ROF would be consistent across brands and makes/models.

Also, with regard to the travel time issue...

Strum Wealh, on 24 January 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

And, finally:

I wasn't able to find a concrete definition for "relativistic velocity", but "at a speed of 13,400,000 m/s (30 million mph, 0.0447c), the length is 99.9% of the length at rest; at a speed of 42,300,000 m/s (95 million mph, 0.141c), the length is still 99%", stated in regard to the Lorentz–Fitzgerald contraction.

So, if we are (IMO) very conservative and assume that "relativistic velocity" of a PPC's salvo is on the order of 0.010c (1% of the speed of light; 2,997,924.58 m/s or 9,835,710.56 ft/sec), we get the following times-to-target:

IS Standard PPC (range: 540 meters): 0.000180124611 seconds
IS and Clan ER PPC (range: 690 meters): 0.000230159226 seconds

In that time-frame (two ten-thousandths of one second), one of the fastest 'Mechs running at top speed (the Fire Moth, at 60 m/s) would have displaced itself approximately 0.0138095536 meters (1.3 cm, or ~0.54 inches).

I think it would be fairly safe to say that PPCs would also be, for all intents and purposes, "hit-scan" weapons...

Even if the proposed projectile speed is halved (0.005c; one-half of one percent of the speed of light) and the range multiplied by a factor of 10 (to 6900 meters), an ER-PPC would require a lead of less than 1 foot (26 cm or 10.8 inches, to be exact) to hit some of the fastest 'Mechs, moving at top speed, at max range.

While not nearly as fast as a laser beam (1.0c; light-speed), a PPC salvo should/would still be fast enough to effectively make PPCs "hit-scan" weapons at normal BattleMech combat distances (less than 1000 meters).

Your thoughts?

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

I think the 3015 trailer finally got it perfect. MW:4 was good, but nothing holds a candle to the effect they got for the new trailer, which feels just as the PPC is always described in the novels. Stick with what you have got in that area Devs, it is spectacular, and keep up the awesome work!

Edit: In regard to Strum Wealh's comments, I think that PPCs should travel at those extremely high velocites. It is an energy weapon after all, and while the shot is incredably fast and long range, it has a major heat drawback. Do I love PPCs? Yes, they are probably my weapon of choice. But lets face it, PPCs are always described as three things: Fast as lightning, hard-hitting, and HOT to use. The way it should be.

Edited by Alaric Wolf Kerensky, 25 January 2012 - 05:08 AM.

[Lima Zulu]

Strum Wealh, on 25 January 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

Even if the proposed projectile speed is halved (0.005c; one-half of one percent of the speed of light) and the range multiplied by a factor of 10 (to 6900 meters), an ER-PPC would require a lead of less than 1 foot (26 cm or 10.8 inches, to be exact) to hit some of the fastest 'Mechs, moving at top speed, at max range.

While not nearly as fast as a laser beam (1.0c; light-speed), a PPC salvo should/would still be fast enough to effectively make PPCs "hit-scan" weapons at normal BattleMech combat distances (less than 1000 meters).

Your thoughts?

A bit fail, imho. So PPC hits harder and further than Large Laser and has almost the same travel time, but its heavier and larger. So PPC literally just becomes Super Extra Large Laser. While there is a quite number of implementation in MW games, PPC and Lasers always were something VERY different. So I believe MWO shouldn't be an exeption.

[Outlaw2]

The closer most weapons are to hitscan THE BETTER. Internet latency hates slow moving projectile weapons. After years of doing no damage to fast moving targets with PPC in various MW games, faster moving projectile speeds or out right hitscan would be a welcome relief. I was forced to get good at lag shooting...but its not exactly inuitive and enjoyable gameplay.

Hitscan doesn't mean pinpoint accuracy. You could still have damage spread even with hitscan.

Quote

A bit fail, imho. So PPC hits harder and further than Large Laser and has almost the same travel time, but its heavier and larger. So PPC literally just becomes Super Extra Large Laser. While there is a quite number of implementation in MW games, PPC and Lasers always were something VERY different. So I believe MWO shouldn't be an exeption.

You do realize that in the TT, PPC and lasers were only distinguished by damage, range, heat, tonnage, ect.... but projectile speed was not one of them (obviously you were just rolling a dice). PPCs were effectively extra large laser (minus some minor differences)

Yea pretty much each MW game handled PPC projectile speed differently. Some were slow as balls (litterally!) some were much, much faster. It was up to the developers of the game to decide how to interpet PPCs.

...but lets focus on the gameplay implications instead....not what was traditionally done in the past.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 25 January 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Lima Zulu, on 25 January 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

A bit fail, imho. So PPC hits harder and further than Large Laser and has almost the same travel time, but its heavier and larger. So PPC literally just becomes Super Extra Large Laser. While there is a quite number of implementation in MW games, PPC and Lasers always were something VERY different. So I believe MWO shouldn't be an exeption.

=Outlaw=, on 25 January 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

You do realize that in the TT, PPC and lasers were only distinguished by damage, range, heat, tonnage, ect.... but projectile speed was not one of them (obviously you were just rolling a dice). PPCs were effectively extra large laser (minus some minor differences)

Lasers and PPCs are very different from one another, and are distinguished by their working mechanisms, game stats (as Outlaw states), and other effects.

Lasers fire highly-coherent beams of photons (massless (no rest mass), electrically-neutral "Bosonic" particles that make up light), and apply damage primarily through thermal effects (very localized heating of part of a target to its melting or vaporization point, with the rapid evaporation and expansion of the surface causing additional damage the target through thermal shock in addition to the loss of material from a target's surface) with very, very little effect from momentum transfer (momentum of a photon: p = h/λ) or kinetic energy (E = p*c).
Because photons are massless, lasers would not have any significant recoil.
The photons emitted by a laser travel at the speed of light (c; equal to 299,792,458 meters per second).

PPCs, on the other hand, are a form of particle beam weapon or ion cannon (or some combination thereof, depending on which works and author one is referencing) that fires a beam or bolt of typically-"Fermionic" particles (electrons, protons, neutrons, their respective antiparticles, alpha particles (essentially Helium atoms stripped of their electrons), and so on) and apply damage primarily through kinetic energy and momentum transfer (KE = 0.5*m*v^2 and p = m*v; expected KE values are apparently on the order of ~1 gigajoule - as a point of reference, the kinetic energy of a 1000kg car travelling at 160kph is about 1/1000 of 1 gigajoule) as well as thermal effects (vaporization and thermal stress, like a laser) and electromagnetic effects (shorting out instruments and power systems, much like when aircraft were hit by lightning before lightning protection systems were developed).
The particles fired by PBWs and ion cannons have mass in the conventional sense (albeit rather little; protons and neutrons have a mass of 1.67x10^(-27) kg, electrons have a mass of 9.11x10^(-31) kg, and alpha particles have a mass of 1.67x10^(-27) kg), with velocities near to (but not equal to) the speed of light (299,792,458 m/s).
As such, PBWs and ion cannons (like PPCs) would (unlike lasers) have recoil and require appropriate compensation measures.

So, while lasers and PPCs may have some superficial similarities as a result of both being forms of directed energy weapons, but the similarities are just that - superficial.

Yay for Science...?

=Outlaw=, on 25 January 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Yea pretty much each MW game handled PPC projectile speed differently. Some were slow as balls (litterally!) some were much, much faster. It was up to the developers of the game to decide how to interpet PPCs.

...but lets focus on the gameplay implications instead....not what was traditionally done in the past.

IMO, PPC salvos (whether they take the form of a ball, a beam, or a bolt) should be very fast-moving (faster than a Gauss Rifle slug but not as fast as a laser beam) and hard-hitting (causes noticeable-to-significant "knock" to the target, depending on conditions), and result in both substantial recoil and heating in the firing unit and electrical effects (interference for HUD and instruments) and minor overall heating in the target.

(By contrast, lasers should/would produce little-to-no knock, have no recoil for the firing unit, and produce very little (if any) overall heating to the target and no electrical effects to the target.)

Your thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 25 January 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Liam]

by being realistic, PPC firing heavy particles at velocities c > v_0 > 0.9c is almost a none sense, electrons yes.
take the same amount of energy for acceleration of proton and you will end with 2 % of c.
if you take something heavy as PPC propellant, let say cesium ... you will end with same acceleration energy by 0.2 % of c, which is still very fast. Howevery simplified and without relativistic aspects ...

I really would like to see some capacitors that can store 1 GJ in a small mech package
I really would like to see acceleration tube ( < 6 m long) which accelerates charged ions to 0.9 of c ...
And yeah there is atmosphere which would absorb almost all energy by producing nice plasma cloud without a plasma channel.

However to me LIPC (laser induced plasma channel) electron weapon is the most feasible PPC concept ... fast electrons which uses plasma as a conductive tunnel ... directed lightning.

EDIT: I like MWLL PPC ... looks like electron LIPC.

Edited by Liam, 25 January 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[Outlaw2]

Bottomline: even traveling at a small percentage of the speed of light, PPC's projectiles would still behave effectivly as a hitscan weapon at the ranges we are talking about.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 25 January 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[Lima Zulu]

=Outlaw=, on 25 January 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

You do realize that in the TT, PPC and lasers were only distinguished by damage, range, heat, tonnage, ect.... but projectile speed was not one of them (obviously you were just rolling a dice). PPCs were effectively extra large laser (minus some minor differences)

Well, at this point, travel time does not matter in TT at all. But simulator videogame is quite different.

Quote

...but lets focus on the gameplay implications instead....not what was traditionally done in the past.

I'd say, if game has "MechWarrior" (or any other series) title - it should have some traiditional (for this series) things in order to keep continuity along with fresh ideas to pick people's interest.

Quote

IMO, PPC salvos (whether they take the form of a ball, a beam, or a bolt) should be very fast-moving (faster than a Gauss Rifle slug but not as fast as a laser beam) and hard-hitting (causes noticeable-to-significant "knock" to the target, depending on conditions), and result in both substantial recoil and heating in the firing unit and electrical effects (interference for HUD and instruments) and minor overall heating in the target.

:thumbsup:

[BigMo5]

How about no trail, nothing flying...

you Get a Flash at the weapon end(kick) and a Flash on the target...Nothing between...

Something different.

[MilitantMonk]

MW3 was very close. They need to be faster and a bit more erratic but still that twisting pattern. I'm on board with the thunderclap sound idea too.

[Marxman]

I think a beam is more fiting. The MW4 effect for the PPCs wasnt that bad imho. But it should last a little longe. The way i understand PPCS is that it accelerated particals to a very high speed that do kinetic damage and that the charge wanders along that very beam to do damage in from of intense heat. Id go with the MW4 effect souped up a bit and adding a thin lightning effect that wanders along the beam with a very slight elay. connecting barrel and target for a split second even after the beam has dissolved. Maybe some buring could be added as well, After all its very hot.
Sound wise it should first sound like a low pitched hissing sound followed by the crackling of thunder followed by a releasing hissing sound like he brakes of a truck after stopping.
The inner barrel should show a faint glow, not the whole barrel or the tip of it.

The PPC is the only Weapon that realy is unique in Battletech. It is the one weapon that only Battletech has. It should be visible and extending the effect throu means of a slight delay like discribed above would make it realy visible and stand out.