28 replies to this topic

[Justicier]

Clan tech, especially in the timeframe we are in, is vastly superior to IS. I know the IS has greater numbers and (arguably) vastly superior tactics, but simulating such things and providing balancing is obviously a pain. Previous MW titles have attempted to balance online matches by either limiting total "team" tonnage (very flawed) or limiting C-Bills available with which to deploy mechs and equipment for the team. Limiting by tonnage doesn't work in balancing Clan Vs. IS mechs because a single 55-ton Stormcrow, according to TT rules, is in theory superior to a 100-ton AS7-D Atlas. Limiting teams by C-Bills could theoretically work, as an AS7-D Atlas costs 9,626,000, whereas a single Stormcrow costs 14,771,112... but at that point, clanners actually become severely disadvantaged as their mechs are more expensive than the mech's performance compensates for.

This brings me to my suggestion. Why not limit dropship contents by "Battle Value"? Obviously it wouldn't be exactly the same amount of points as TableTop, but I think only slight modifications would need to be made to make it work. To add perspective, take two sides, 1 and 3/4ths Steiner scout lance (7 Atlases... hehe), the other a Clan Wolf star (5 mechs) of 4 Timber Wolf mechs and 1 Mad Dog. The Clan Wolf's total BV for the star is 13299, the Atlases total BV is 13279. Close match... with the odds still slightly in the Clanner's favor despite being at a 7 to 5 disadvantage. Add the 20-ton Flea to the second IS lance and the odds swing back to the IS's favor.

The other problem is weaponry... when Clan tech arrives... why use IS tech? This has been an issue for previous MW games as well, but I believe the same solution could be enacted to get the desired balancing. Take into account weapon BV points as well, and factor in currently equipped weaponry into the Battle Value system. Say hypothetically you fully outfit an Atlas with clan weaponry... well at that point a single Atlas is going to be worth a heck of alot more in battle than the AS7-D's original 1897! Factor in equipment BV as well... adding LAMS, MASC, ECM, Jump Jets, anything that makes your mech deadlier or increases its survivability could be balanced using a BV-type point system. So, you've got your Atlas decked out with all kinds of cool Clan weapons, and a heck of an electronics suite... as such, you'll be more limited in the ability to field multiple "Über Atlases" with high Battle Values than just the IS stock AS7-D.

As for what the cap of the Battle Value points will be... I guess that would be up to the situation and size of forces on both sides. Say the IS launches a large attack against a relatively poorly defended Clan-occupied world... the Battle Value points available to both sides will be skewed to reflect the disadvantage a limited Clan garrison would have against a larger force. This system wouldn't just apply to Clan Vs. IS, but could also work for IS Vs. IS as well... it's just as relevant, but clan tech being so superior makes a system like this advantageous in my humble opinion. Obviously, this balancing system would work only for mechs/equipment options... balancing PVP with IS and Clan pilots of varying skill levels is another (mind numbing) issue.

Any thoughts on this type of system to promote balance? Or different ideas to accomplish the same goal?

[EDMW CSN]

I won't touch on the BV portion since you explained it pretty well. And all TT players should know that.

As for why use IS tech when you got Clan Tech ? As this is a semi-persistent MMO world, make Clan Tech bloody expensive to replace or repair.

When the Clans hit on 3050, no one in the IS had a clue on how to operate weapon pods or repair Clan tech Omnis with their expensive XL engines. Apart from Battle Magic and their sponsor WD, and such repair services can be made real expensive by simply tweaking in game values.

Edited by EDMW CSN, 04 August 2012 - 01:10 AM.

[Fuzzyhead]

easy way go merc!

[Preditor]

They could limit inner sphere player to IS technology only. Same for clans. There's only so much clan technology, and a lot of IS mechs and equipment are rare within even the Inner Sphere. Even amongst the clans, at this time, Timber wolves are rare outside clan wolf, how can every inner sphere pilot grab one if he or she wants it?

As for balancing, pilot's statics could rank their skill level, thus allowing better balancing of teams, and ensuring a fair ratio of clan to inner shere mechs is maintained per individual match.
or
An honor system could also be implemented to give clanners less rewards if they don't make bold attempts to win with fewer mechs. Or the reverse, bonuses for even competing hopelessly outnumbered.

[Xathanael]

EDMW CSN, on 04 August 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

I won't touch on the BV portion since you explained it pretty well. And all TT players should know that.

As for why use IS tech when you got Clan Tech ? As this is a semi-persistent MMO world, make Clan Tech bloody expensive to replace or repair.

When the Clans hit on 3050, no one in the IS had a clue on how to operate weapon pods or repair Clan tech Omnis with their expensive XL engines. Apart from Battle Magic and their sponsor WD, and such repair services can be made real expensive by simply tweaking in game values.

EDMW CSN, on 04 August 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

I won't touch on the BV portion since you explained it pretty well. And all TT players should know that.

As for why use IS tech when you got Clan Tech ? As this is a semi-persistent MMO world, make Clan Tech bloody expensive to replace or repair.

When the Clans hit on 3050, no one in the IS had a clue on how to operate weapon pods or repair Clan tech Omnis with their expensive XL engines. Apart from Battle Magic and their sponsor WD, and such repair services can be made real expensive by simply tweaking in game values.

I agree with this. Check out http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragon DRG-1N is an inner sphere heavy battlemech that costs about 6M C-Bills. Then look at http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Timberwolf a Clans Heavy that costs $25M C-Bills!! This is already balanced!! Because in game you will have to do quadruple the matches to get enough cash to buy one and then earn quadruple to cash to maintain one. Also http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM_6 just a regular SRM-6 80Gs, now a Clan tech http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM_6 Streak SRM-6 120Gs... BALANCED!! Dudes can use MC to speed up the process but all in all there is no advantage since using a clan mech is like taking a Mercedes-Benz to a Demolition Derby. Sure it's nice, but at the end of the day it's still getting destroyed

[Justicier]

Preditor, on 04 August 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

As for balancing, pilot's statics could rank their skill level, thus allowing better balancing of teams, and ensuring a fair ratio of clan to inner shere mechs is maintained per individual match.
or
An honor system could also be implemented to give clanners less rewards if they don't make bold attempts to win with fewer mechs. Or the reverse, bonuses for even competing hopelessly outnumbered.

I very much like the idea of an honor system... that's something that should be at the forefront of Clan battle tactics and it would be very good to see Clan players rewarded for "honorable" waging of war.

Xathanael, see, that's not quite balanced though... a Timber Wolf with a high Battle Value still doesn't offset the extreme price jump. Making clan mechs available at a discount only to actual Clanners might work. But if we just go by what Clan mechs would fetch on the IS market then in a year, due to limited funds available, the Inner Sphere will be invaded by nothing but a bunch of Clan Kit Foxs and Firemoths... perhaps even the "assault" Stormcrow Clan mech! What intimidation and "oh crap" factor is there in that? That being said, a C-Bill based system for balancing would work in some ways... only the very rich (and stupid) would be able to operate and maintain Clan tech. But at the same time it wouldn't work very well because of the same reasons... if it costs so much more and isn't really providing an advantage to offset the price, then nobody in their right mind would use it. That, and the only mechs we'll see in operation by the Invading Clans will be lights and maybe a few mediums... plus it doesn't reflect that the IS is numerically superior...

Edited by Justicier, 04 August 2012 - 02:18 AM.

[Stoffer]

You can work out the balance all you want , you won't be able to balance out that clan warriors were superior pilots compared to inner sphere ones.

Still be Interesting to see how they do it - cant wait to get my summoner!

[Incunabulum]

EDMW CSN, on 04 August 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

As for why use IS tech when you got Clan Tech ? As this is a semi-persistent MMO world, make Clan Tech bloody expensive to replace or repair.

This will be a big one as for quite while after the invasion (in the lore) clantech will only be available as salvage (no trade between IS and Clans at this point) - either you get it from the battlefield or pay through the nose to someone who did.

[XvDraxvX]

Incunabulum, on 04 August 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

This will be a big one as for quite while after the invasion (in the lore) clantech will only be available as salvage (no trade between IS and Clans at this point) - either you get it from the battlefield or pay through the nose to someone who did.

Player driven economy?

I think about this point all the time during my day. I am very curious to see how they balance all of this.

Its true though once clan tech come in their is no reason to use IS Tech. Clan Tech is just better all around, you cant even strip down say a Atlas properly. The internal Structure itself in clan mechs is better and lighter.

I could see there being a issue with the repair cost, But what if you are a clanner? Clans know how to fix there own stuff. So that would not work. (unless your a clanner rocking a IS mech....... would never happen)

[Feindfeuer]

Though i like the idea of BV, it would need a lot of work. BV is balanced (somewhat) for tabeltop, and this does not translate well into realtime, pilotskill based gameplay. Maybe an easier way would be to 'downgrade' Clantech to the level of IS and make it more of a sidegrade instead of a direct upgrade.
I guess many claners like the clans for what they are in terms of history, honor, etc, and not just because they got the biggest guns. So i guess people could adjust to that. This would also solve the problem of IS mechs using clantech and vise verca without getting into complex formulas judging the effectivness of certain weapons on certain chassis in an arbitrary number.

[xX_Nero_Xx]

im sure they have asked the exact same question that everyone here is asking and have givin themsevles a yr to come up with a working and good solution so why worry about it now sit back and enjoy what we have at the moment and worry about what tomorrow brings tomorrow

[Nonsense]

Xathanael, on 04 August 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

I agree with this. Check out http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragon DRG-1N is an inner sphere heavy battlemech that costs about 6M C-Bills. Then look at http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Timberwolf a Clans Heavy that costs $25M C-Bills!! This is already balanced!! Because in game you will have to do quadruple the matches to get enough cash to buy one and then earn quadruple to cash to maintain one. Also http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM_6 just a regular SRM-6 80Gs, now a Clan tech http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM_6 Streak SRM-6 120Gs... BALANCED!! Dudes can use MC to speed up the process but all in all there is no advantage since using a clan mech is like taking a Mercedes-Benz to a Demolition Derby. Sure it's nice, but at the end of the day it's still getting destroyed

This wouldn't be as simple as you're making it out to be. Unless repair costs are prohibitive (which would kind of suck to deal with from a fun perspective) everyone would eventually accumulate a lot of C-Bills and buy whatever they want. So, while you're correct that the costs are balanced, that's only true if you're talking about single battles...in MWO you have to consider persistent player accounts.

[Xathanael]

Nonsense, on 04 August 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

This wouldn't be as simple as you're making it out to be. Unless repair costs are prohibitive (which would kind of suck to deal with from a fun perspective) everyone would eventually accumulate a lot of C-Bills and buy whatever they want. So, while you're correct that the costs are balanced, that's only true if you're talking about single battles...in MWO you have to consider persistent player accounts.

Nonsense, on 04 August 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

This wouldn't be as simple as you're making it out to be. Unless repair costs are prohibitive (which would kind of suck to deal with from a fun perspective) everyone would eventually accumulate a lot of C-Bills and buy whatever they want. So, while you're correct that the costs are balanced, that's only true if you're talking about single battles...in MWO you have to consider persistent player accounts.

I am considering that. Clans aren't invincible. If a Jenner can kill an Atlas, a Jenner can kill a Timberwolf. N00b pilots would still suck. Veterans in Centurions would be deadly. The game balances itself.

[Rovertoo]

I've been playing the MechWarrior 4: Mercs, lately, and I can't seem to find any sort of balancing tools for IS v. Clan tech in Multiplayer.

Now, I don't know if no Balancing factor would work in MW:O, but it could work itself out (Maybe).

Another idea I had, is maybe the other stats could just be messed around with more, to give drawbacks to Clan weapons. For more specialized pilots, then, could use Clan tech where it would be most useful and avoid confrontations that would set them back due to the Clan limitations. That way, I'd imagine that those who like to be more adaptable would use the IS weaponry.

For example, a Clan AC/10 could actually create considerable heat and have less ammunition per ton, but be lighter.

Edited by Rovertoo, 04 August 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[daehawk]

It's already been proven that we in the IS are better warriors. *spits on clan* Bring'em on. Freeborn will always kick vat baby arse.

[Therumancer]

I think people are missing the obvious solution, which is to say that the timeline remains frozen to Inner sphere vs. Inner sphere conflicts only and never "advances" to the time period of the clan invasions, much like how "Lord Of The Rings Online" remains frozen during the time of the War Of The Ring, and never advances onwards to after the defeat of Sauron despite the passage of seasonal events. The entire "Lord Of the Rings" trilogy didn't happen over that long a period of time.

The thing to understand about Clans Vs. Inner Sphere is that the Clans had an advantage initially. They represented a threat intended to unify the diverse factions (somewhat) and provide something new for people to fight against. It's like any other science fiction "invasion by a superior foe" scenario overall. The Inner Sphere DOES catch up, and pretty much winds up rolling faces in the long term, remaining the central focus of the storyline and universe despite the initial devestation.

What this means is that if Clans ARE added to the game, the way to do it is to accelerate the overall timeline at that point and freeze it at the new level. The whole "OMG, what was that!?!?!?!" period of the Clans appearing out of seemingly nowhere with superior tech and laying waste to everything for what is admittedly a pretty substantial period of time simply gets relegated to backround text. The game picks up in it's playable format down the road when the conflict is still hot, but turning around, and there is more parity, allowing for pitched battles between the factions.

It should also be noted that by it's nature Battletech focuses on battles that are pretty evenly matched in terms of firepower and overall objectives. Greatly lopsided battles might happen, but are generally always off camera, the whole point is for either side to have a chance of winning. All of the stuff about budgets, battle value, tonnage, etc... were ways of acheiving this. In the scope of MW online we're dealing with a lot of individual players with persistant accounts, much like an RPG character (heck Mechwarrior was the PnP RPG version of Battletech which was purely a war game). You simply handle this by RPG logic with the players all representing exceptional individuals, sure most schlubs out there probably have mechs a lot less customized and effective than the PCs, which is why they stick out. While not satisfying to those thinking of recreating the rank and file of a fantasy military, this is by and large a game, and in general not many people are going to want to show up as spear carrier #4 in a battle they are predestinied to lose.

In short while not "realistic" to the intent of the universe, how much clan tech and such people have on their inner sphere mechs is more or less irrelevent to characters like this. I also imagine that half the point of the game is going to be to gradually build up insane amounts of technology and gimmicks on your mech of choice. Those who play regularly and put the time in (win or lose) will probably wind up outfitting their favorite mechs with tons of experimental/star league/clan gear.

To be honest I'd much rather see them put time into seperating the queues properly so you have solo players fighting against solo players and pre-mades against pre-mades, than contemplating issues like clan tech which will never make everyone 100% happy. Right now as someone who plans to play casually I'm less worried about what the clans might look like down the road (when the game isn't even out yet and doesn't have half the IS mechs I think it should... heck we don't even have a Marauder and that's one of my old time favs), and more worried about being able to login once in a while for a mech fix between other things without getting pwned constantly by guys who play 40+ hours a week and are perfectly coordinated over teamspeak. I have nothing against guilds/clans/whatever or working with other people, but I klnd of want to play this as an "I also play this occasionally" game and win sometimes (once I figure it out) since I'm more of an RPG player who spends time on other more "traditional" MMOs as their major interest.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Feindfeuer, on 04 August 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

Though i like the idea of BV, it would need a lot of work. BV is balanced (somewhat) for tabeltop, and this does not translate well into realtime, pilotskill based gameplay. Maybe an easier way would be to 'downgrade' Clantech to the level of IS and make it more of a sidegrade instead of a direct upgrade.
I guess many claners like the clans for what they are in terms of history, honor, etc, and not just because they got the biggest guns. So i guess people could adjust to that. This would also solve the problem of IS mechs using clantech and vise verca without getting into complex formulas judging the effectivness of certain weapons on certain chassis in an arbitrary number.

This is a conflation of two separate balancing issues. The first is that of the mechs and technology and the second is pilot skill.
A form of BV is fine for the first, which will result in asymetrical numbers in a match. This will reflect the IS superiority in numbers.
The second can be taken care of by some form of ELO, which would be needed even in IS v IS matches.The matchmaler would also need to consider where people are dropping as part of a group, with no in-game VOIP such teams will have an automatic advantage.
The "actual" conditions that obtained during the invasion in lore don't apply here as everyone is familiar with the mechs and the tech, it's no surprise. The other thing is that the IS pilots will be using heavily modified mechs with "level 2" tech equivalent to that used only by a few elite regiments in the timeline. Yes 1v1 the Clans have an advantage, but this is a team game. Personally I would like to see the tech stay separate, just because things were done differently in previous games, doesn't mean it is correct.
We have a year before the Clans arrive, I would like to see an effective, solid, matchmaker in place well before that which will make balancing the Clans much easier.
It should be remembered that much of the IS didn't see or fight the Clans anyway

[gilliam]

Xathanael, on 04 August 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

using a clan mech is like taking a Mercedes-Benz to a Demolition Derby. Sure it's nice, but at the end of the day it's still getting destroyed

That sums up my thoughts nicely.

I am fine with cash being the balancer. Sure, you can hav some nice clan weapons, but you lose the arm they are mounted in and you have to buy new ones. That could set you back a few matches, more if you lose the matches.

[verybad]

Limit Clan mechs to 10 per team vrs 12 per team in IS.

Give Clan pilots an XP penalty if they engage in non-honorable fightstyles (ie more than one mech attacking an opponent)

Make Clan LRMs incapable of indirect fire, and or don't give clan scouts XP for providing indirect fire solutions. Or don't give clan pilots XP for using indirect fire (with half tonnage, non mimimum range LRMs they need serious balancing)

Allow clan pilots to challange for a duel. Both pilots in a duel get XP bonuses win or lose (yes even if they're IS pilots) Anoyone that breaks into a duel gets an XP penalty (clan) or no XP (IS)

I would rather the clans FEEL different, rather than just being a shiny new toy factory.

[Xathanael]

verybad, on 05 August 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

Limit Clan mechs to 10 per team vrs 12 per team in IS.

Give Clan pilots an XP penalty if they engage in non-honorable fightstyles (ie more than one mech attacking an opponent)

Make Clan LRMs incapable of indirect fire, and or don't give clan scouts XP for providing indirect fire solutions. Or don't give clan pilots XP for using indirect fire (with half tonnage, non mimimum range LRMs they need serious balancing)

Allow clan pilots to challange for a duel. Both pilots in a duel get XP bonuses win or lose (yes even if they're IS pilots) Anoyone that breaks into a duel gets an XP penalty (clan) or no XP (IS)

I would rather the clans FEEL different, rather than just being a shiny new toy factory.

oh geez