24 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

I know, this is entirely revolutionary, but I feel that medium lasers should do 5 damage and the AC/20 should do 20 damage... thusly, a volly of 4 medium lasers should have the same punch of an AC/20 - just as the BattleTech rules say.

Why do I have to suggest this? Because other Mechwarrior games have thrown these ratios out the window. Play Mechwarrior 4: Mercenaries and you'll see that all the lasers have their damages cut in half. They did this "in an effort to balance the game," because lasers had a distinct tactical advantage over the super-slow firing autocannons (as if they weren't even autocannons, more like bolt-action rifles). Now, the previous game videos you guys released while MW was planned as a Xbox 360 game shows an Atlas firing an autocannon... rapidly... as if it were some magicly self-reloading automatic cannon! That's how it should be!

So, if you want to balance weapons in MWO, I humbly request that you please do so by toying with the firing rates and not by manipulating weapon strengths so badly that they no longer even reflect the Rules Of The Game.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 18 January 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[verybad]

No they havn't "thrown these ratios out the window."

Not all the weapons in the game can have a 10 second reload/recharge time or it would get mighty dull very quickly. There are differences between turn based and real time games.

Balance for the gameplay is more important than "how it should be" MW3 Medium Laser boats RULED the game. In standard battletech, you can still largely command the battlefield using custommafe Medium Laser boats or ERMLs if you want a bit mroe range. The base game has some weapons that are better than others, and in some cases those differences are even worse in a real time game unless things are altered in order to preserve SOME form of balance.

If you never made a medium laser boat in battletech then you're missing out on something...terrible. Don't even talk about Clan ERML boats. *shudders*

In addition, it seems pretty obvious that the damage for a weapons is the damage it makes over a timeframe in battletech, so they're OBVIOUSLY going to be different per shot.

Edited by verybad, 18 January 2012 - 07:17 PM.

[Yeach]

How is this in its own thread and not part of
http://mwomercs.com/...-medium-lasers/

[Felicitatem Parco]

I'm saying that a full volly from a Jenner's 4 medium lasers SHOULD do the same damage as a direct hit from a volly fired by the Hunchie's Shoulder Blaster. BUT, I am also saying that the Hunchie doesn't have to worry about Heat buildup (heat effects SHOULD be much stronger in MWO than they were in MW$), and if the Devs want to take some artistic license they can up the AC's rate of fire to higher than that of a Medium Laser.

I know that BT damages are to be interperated as "damage over time" because it's a board game and hand-eye coordination is not at all involved; I think, for a 1st person Sim where fast reflexes and hand-eye coordination is crucial, damage values should be implimented as "damage per volly." That way you can tweak rates of fire to even things out without having to throw the weapon strengths too far off from the Official Values.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Yeach, on 18 January 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

How is this in its own thread and not part of
http://mwomercs.com/...-medium-lasers/

I didn't know that one existed... I'm gonna troll over there, instead of here.

Thanks for the Heads Up.

Edit: I guess I didn't look in General Discussion because this was an idea I wanted to suggest, I didn't think the same exact thread existed already.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 18 January 2012 - 07:50 PM.

[Graphite]

Prosperity Park, on 18 January 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

They did this "in an effort to balance the game," because lasers had a distinct tactical advantage over the super-slow firing autocannons (as if they weren't even autocannons, more like bolt-action rifles). Now, the previous game videos you guys released while MW was planned as a Xbox 360 game shows an Atlas firing an autocannon... rapidly... as if it were some magicly self-reloading automatic cannon! That's how it should be!

Have to point out that "auto" ONLY means that the next round is automatically loaded into the breech. It does NOT, NOT, NOT imply "rapid fire" (although compared to a non-auto weapon its rate of fire will probably be higher).

I hated the MW4 ACs too. IMO ACs should be portrayed pretty similar to the cannon on a modern tank (auto, of course).

[Xavier Truscott]

The reason laser damage was reduced was because of refresh times involved. A medium laser did 5 points of damage in 10 seconds, if medium lasers have a refresh rate of 2.5 seconds, that would suggest 1.25 point of damage each time it fired as opposed to firing for 20 points in 10 seconds. In the same respect, the ac20 did 20 points to one location every 10 seconds, and although that seems like a long time to wait for a gun to reload and be able to fire again, so the fire rate on the ac20 was reduced to around 6 seconds i believe, and made the ac20 a more effective short range weapon then boating medium lasers.

[Azantia]

Posted the following in the original thread....posted here as a curtosy

I really think the community is looking at this the wrong way. The devs have already said that not all the canon lore / TT rules will translate well into a computer simulation like Mechwarrior Online, I think that is the right approach. That being said, I think the overall discussion is a good one, but the focus of the conversations is a bit off. To me, lasers would have a greater recycle time than an Autocannon, even a single shot one. If we are going to quote canon and TT lore and rules, lets get it right, and correctly define Lasers and Autocannons
Being a Feddie...lets start with Autocannons. Going to Sarna.net here.
An Autocannon is a type of rapid-firing, auto-loading direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) or kinetic rounds at targets in bursts. It is, basically, a giant "machine gun" that fires predominantly cased explosive shells though models firing saboted high velocity kinetic energy penetrators or caseless ordnance do exist. Among the earliest tank/BattleMech scale weaponry produced, autocannons produce far less heat than energy weapons, but are considerably bulkier and are dependent upon limited stores of ammunition.
Autocannons range in caliber from 30mm up to 203mm and are loosely grouped according to their damage vs armor.[1] The exact same caliber of shell fired in a 100 shot burst to do 20 damage will have a shorter effective range than when fired in a 10 shot burst to do 2 damage due to recoil and other factors. Autocannon are grouped into the following loose damage classes: AC/2, AC/5, AC/10, AC20.
Beyond the "standard" models, variants include the shotgun-like LBX, quick-firing Ultra and the gatling-type Rotary. Light-weight variants and capital ship scale models also exist. The experimental Hypervelocity Autocannon has also entered limited production.[2][3]

Holy crap dude, I don’t know what that means?!
Basically, it means the Devs can start by including different types of Autocannons by rating. Meaning An Autocannon/5 could be done in say…3 ways.

Single shot Autocannon/5 = 5 Damage, Longer range than say, a 3 or 5 round burst, refer to auto cannon 100 round burst vs. 10 round burst above, with a decent recycle time.

3 Round Burst Autocannon/5 = fires a quick burst of 3 rounds, smaller caliber than above, same overall damage from 3 shots, less range, more spread, but faster recycle time than single shot one. Also more violent for the MechWarrior on the receiving end.

5 Round Burst Auto cannon/5 = fires a very fast 5 round burst, smallest caliber, shortest range (due to highest spread), but fastest recycle time and most violent jarring.

Ultra Autocannons would obviously recycle faster, hence the quick firing part.
Light Autocannons have less range/accuracy
Hyper Velocity Auto cannons = More range (kinda moot point, its experimental)
LBX auto cannons would be the most difficult to balance I think, mainly due to the fact that you would need to decide how much damage each individual “slug” causes in the LBX spread.
Rotary AC are not developed until 3060, so we wont concern ourselves with them for now.
That would be the most accurate representation of “true” TT/canon lore.

On to Lasers :
Laser stands for "Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation", or a device that focuses an amplified beam of light on a small surface area. Lasers are popular weapons due to their low cost compared to other energy weapons and because they do not rely on ammunition, which simplifies logistics. Laser rifles are one of the most effective weapons infantry units have when fighting vehicles or 'Mechs.

Standard lasers cause damage by firing an intense beam of light at a target, flooding concentrated energy in the form of heat, which can melt material and overwhelm heat-sensitive electronics. The various Clan militaries do not use standard lasers, having phased them out in favor of more advanced laser types. All standard lasers are typically grouped into three broad classes based on their damage potential:
Small Laser
Medium Laser
Large Laser

Now anyone who knows anything about true Battletech lore understand that if we were to be completely technical, there are different manufacturers of each laser, each known for something, an increase in range, damage, better heat efficiency etc…
For simplicity these things are not included in the TT version of battletech, but for a simulation such as MechWarrior Online I believe you could do a lot to add depth by providing different types/manufacturers of laser systems.

Is my medium laser an Intek or a Martell? Is it a Maxwell or a Starflash II? You could easily pick 2 to 3 of the most popular designs and have one deal a bit of extra damage (for extra heat) one have a slice more range, and one have either less heat build up or better recycle time.
As for the argument of multiple beams hitting near the same location or the same location and the damage they cause, I will refer to : Binary Laser Cannon, aka the Blazer cannon, which I hope they include in MWO.

Binary Laser Cannon
Nicknamed the Blazer, the Binary Laser Cannon is widely considered a dead-end technology. Taking two large laser cores and fusing them together, the Blazer was designed to fire both cores at the same time, increasing damage penetration. In practice, damage yield proved low compared to the lasers firing separately, and the high heat generated by the Blazer severely taxed available heat sink technology of the time.
While research on the Blazer started in the Lyran Commonwealth in 2801, actual prototype models first showed up in the Free Worlds League in 2812. With the re-introduction of double heat sinks, the Blazer cannon is now a viable weapon

You, the community can decide what that means. To me, I believe that it means that multiple beams fired at the same exact time, in the same exact space would yield less damage than when fired separately, to further support my point of view, I reference the following :

Pulse lasers differ from traditional laser weaponry, in that instead of firing one powerful beam, they maintain several laser beams fired off in quick succession. While offering an overall increased rate of fire, the heat output also increases accordingly. Pulse lasers increase damage because they allow vaporized armor to dissipate from the location of damage. This allows subsequent pulses to reach the target area without being diffused by the vapor.

Just my point of view.
What is your take? /discuss
p.s. sorry for the wall of text, but you know you love it.

[EDMW CSN]

4 medium lasers = 4 tons.
4 medium lasers = 12 heat
Jenner = 10 heatsinks carried. (over heat by a mere 2)

Btw those are free heat sinks then don't cost tonnage


AC-20 = 14 ton + 2 tons ammo (1 ton of ammo for AC-20 is unacceptable) = 16 tons
AC-20 = 7 heat
Hunchback = never overheats as long only AC is fired.


You either have to accept that lasers will have to do damage over time (something like 5 damage over 4 seconds and a cool down of 4 seconds) or their damage nerfed but rof boosted (2.5 damage 4 seconds cooldown).
Medium lasers are staple weapons, but should not make heavier beam weapons like PPCs obsolete.. And it is laughable that 6 medium lasers do as much as the 3 PPCs of an Awesome and with LESS HEAT.

Also this make it closely in line to the 10 second round time for the table top game

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 28 January 2012 - 09:11 PM.

[Raeven]

Don't nerf Medium lasers.

That is all.

[Outlaw2]

Medium lasers were great backup weapons in the TT. Well no **** they were. They were the best weapon in the game. They were only not totally broken when playing with stock mechs. Boating ... all bets are off.

One of the best reasons you can not directly translate TT rules into a PC mechwarrior game. You need to change values. Hell its really about how to best translate the 10 second rounds into the PC game....and so that its balanced. Unless you make every weapon have a 10 second recycle time, things are going to look very different. Not to mention weapons behave very differently in the game than the simple RNG all weapons abide to in the TT. Hitscan throws a huge wrench in the balancing process. Its something extra you need to consider when balancing weapons that you don't have to worry about in the TT. One among many different variables...

Bottom line: BT TT diehards, accept the inevitably of weapons stats being different than the TT (sometimes drastically).

Edited by =Outlaw=, 28 January 2012 - 10:36 PM.

[Azantia]

@ outlaw....

....Took a little walk.
Ran into Outlaw
Had to have a talk....

ill let you figure out the rest....

unless of course, it could be : Ran into Paul Inyouke.....had to have a talk.....

For all your non-military types, ignore this post, your lost...
The above caught you up.....a little.

[Raeven]

=Outlaw=, on 28 January 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

Bottom line: BT TT diehards, accept the inevitably of weapons stats being different than the TT (sometimes drastically).

Solaris VII dueling rules. Learn about em. Read em. They are the TT rules translated for real time. See MPBT:Solaris, MPBT:EGA, and MPBT:3025 for successful implementations using that system.

[Brakkyn]

Don't allow customization where this becomes an issue, and you have no issue.

[Liam]

Everything is connected and should be balanced as a whole thing ...
( heat / damage/ accuracy / damage model / reload / range / available terrain / weapon slots / TRO weapon configurations / etc. ...)

I don't know but with 5 dmg per ML Nova will be able theoretically do 60 dmg; ride the heat bar ...

[Outlaw2]

Raeven, on 29 January 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

Solaris VII dueling rules. Learn about em. Read em. They are the TT rules translated for real time. See MPBT:Solaris, MPBT:EGA, and MPBT:3025 for successful implementations using that system.

Still not going to happen. Sure you can use the rules for inspiration, hell maybe even as a reference point for alpha...but things will have to be modified due the games engine, game mechanics, latency and bunch of ther variables the TT never had to deal with. To say balance for a PC game can be magically pulled directly as is from numbers found in a TT rulebook is fanboy fantasy.

I question the successful part when mentioning MPBT.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 29 January 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[guardiandashi]

in the battletech game and the solaris 7 boxed set weapons damage does not change

a small laser does 3 damage per firing
a medium laser does 5 damage per firing
a large laser does 8 damage per firing

an ac2 does 2 damage per firing
an ac5 does 5 damage per firing
an ac10 does 10 damage per firing
an ac 20 does 20 damage per firing

an ac firing is like a "burst" mode on an assault rifle it fires a designated number of shots each time you pull the trigger
so if you have an ac20 (hunchback or atlas) that fires 5 rounds for each "shot" then the 3050 dumb hunchy that has 5 "shots" means there are actually 25 "rounds" in its ammo bin. when the pilot "pulls the trigger" on the ac20 it immediately fires off 5 rounds and then it takes it ~7.5 - 10 seconds to load in another 5 round mag/clip and cool off to the point that its ready to fire again.

if you are going by the solaris 7 rules, it only takes ~2.5 seconds to load the next set of rounds, but if you force the gun to fire again before it is ready, it will fire but "bad things" CAN happen, massively increased heat (automatic), gun destruction, ammo explosions etc.

the point is that part of the game ballance that was incorperated in the board/tabletop game and was never even attempted to be brought over into the computer "mechwarrior" titles is the limited accuracy IE scatter hits.

in the board game part of what makes the ac20 "better" than the 4 medium lasers even though for the weight and space you could actually mount 5-6 medium lasers in the weight of 1 ac20 and ammo, is that eacj hit with a medium laser only does 5 damage, and that whole battery of medium lasers is VERY unlikely to all hit in the same location, wheras the ac20 WILL apply all its damage to 1 spot (location) and until you get into the heavy or assault mechs that 1 20 point his is VERY likely to rip a location right off a mech in 1 hit wheras 4 5 point medium laser hits are more likely to scatter around the tergets body.

now there are a lot of people arguing that where you aim is where you should hit, and there is some merit to that, but if the weapons do individually "fired" aim and hit mechanics and NOT group aim and hit with no scatter that breaks a lot of gameplay ballance.

I personally would have no major issues with a "scatter cone" of weapon hits as long as the drawn shots go to the derived hit locations

[Harrow]

Isn't debate between AC/20 and 4 ML really all about heat vs longevity in battle? Additionally the Ac/20 puts all eggs in one basket and if you miss you miss. Whereas with 4 ML your combat effectiveness is increased because you were highly unlikely to miss with all 4 lasers.

Also, the arguments about all the ML's being in the same location are valid for some mech designs and if that is the case they all should have the same 'to hit' modifier. But lets say you have 2 ML in each arm for example, there should be some consideration given to the location of the weapons on your mech. At 100 yards, a few degrees variance between how the weapons are situated would have an impact.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

@ Harrow, unfortunately in previous games this was not the case. You could have two medium lasers in each arm. 2 CT, 2LT, 2RT and one in the head and they would all hit the same pixel on the target. According to the screaming posts about this point it was due to the incredible skill of the pilots to hit what they were aiming at ie pressing a button as an on screen cursor passed over a target. Trying to explain that the mechs computers are trying to align all these weapons on the target that they have designated results in yet more outrage. Yes, when you have a fixed cursor and have to manouver your mech to place that cursor over another moving mech. That is skill. However there should be no guarantee that all the weapons will fire in the same place. We will just have to wait and see what they do this time around.

[Raeven]

=Outlaw=, on 29 January 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

I question the successful part when mentioning MPBT.

You had a near constant number of players paying to play what was essentially a combat engine stuck in beta for 5 years, @ 10-15 dollars a month. Successful implementation is what I said and what I meant.

I'm waiting to see how they do it. I know they can keep the numbers true without making drastic changes, but until we see a release we can only watch people whine about what they didn't like about the previous games.

Also, remember, that giving 4 medium laser alpha the ability to be as powerful as an AC/20 (given the 'Mech has enough HS to compensate) increases the life and usefulness of all 'Mechs, especially the lighter ones.