21 replies to this topic

[geck0 icaza]

Long time reader first time poster. Thus far the devs and the information I have been able to scrounge up have swelled my chest with confidence about the state of the game and where its going. With that out of the way I will get to the suggestion...[/color]

For those of us who are clanners and will be simply waiting in limbo (playing the game happily but still in limbo) until the clans arrive: What can we do to help make our progress before that more meaningful. [/color]

There has been discussion about "skill trees" and "loyalty points" and the likes so I'd like to suggest the following. If the Clan skill tree is different (and I believe they should be) can I transfer over all of my progress over to that new character? The loyalty points turning into "honor" points I can see issue with. I can see potential ways around it but its not something I'm going to go crazy over. This leaves us a cool way of populating Clanner factions with fleshed out players from the get go. Allowing for an important benefit: Testing the skills for balancing. There are 2 additional benefits to this: First, it will allow players who are clanners to play with a degree of "seriousness". Not feeling like nothing they do matters cause they'll need to create a new account to play on their preferred faction. This way they will know that these games "matter". The last one is great because this is something that can be sold. I know I know, bah to the guy who wants to Monetize something. But this would fall in line with what the game will sell "not giving a tactical advantage". Lord knows I would pay for it. This also stems the tide a little from players just wanting better gear moving in mass to the clans.

So let me finish this post with a very clear statement: I love my faction, I know you love yours. I respect you for your passion and I am happy for you if your faction is available to play. But just because you may not like my faction don't penalize me for it. Respect me the same I respect you.

[Nerts]

Clan tech is all round better than IS stuff, there has to be some sort of penalty or compromise in joining the clans or the vast majority of players will do it for the shinier guns.

[Naduk]

i would like to see joining the clan factions be alot more dynamic upon their launch
you should need to perform well enough against them to make them notice and consider you as a bondsman
(reads have a choice in game to convert your character)

but you would lose all your previous ties even if your the owner of a merc unit ect
then you would start a fresh in the clans (with perhaps the exception of purchased content)
because really even the most experienced warrior in the IS is considered noob by clan standards

so they would not let you have your atlas back, you would need to prove to them you can handle a Firemoth ect
i would even go so far as to say your RL money purchased gear would be locked until you re-earn it
because in the clans you do not have the freedom of choosing, you are told what to pilot by either your superiors OR code of honor OR batchall OR available resources

playing as the clans should be a very very different game, not at its core but on a stylistic and options level
i think if they went this path, sure it might upset some people who want nothing more that to fly the banner for their Clan
(raised by Clan Wolf i am one of these people my self)
but if you have just spent 1-2 years building a merc corp and making a name for your self

when the clans come, you will have a difficult choice to make
you may find that the unit you have built with your friends is suddenly alot more important that you thought

i would really like to see this kind of moral choice attached to joining the clans

[Alaskan Viking]

Nerts, on 20 January 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Clan tech is all round better than IS stuff, there has to be some sort of penalty or compromise in joining the clans or the vast majority of players will do it for the shinier guns.

This is an 8 vs 8 multi player FPS/action game, you can't have one side that is totally superior in weapons, no matter what kind of rigorous selection process you have to keep "noobs" out of the clan factions, you just cannot do it, peroid.

There are going to be some very disappointed Clanners on here when they find out that the Clan tech has been perfectly balanced to the same level as IS tech, probably with higher over heat problems to make up for greater range/damage etc. or implemented as high tier tech avaliable to every high level character, reguardless of faction, Clan and IS alike.

[Rabbit Blacksun]

Umm you really cant make clan tech the same as IS tech ... sorry to break it too you ... but that would make this nothing like BT ... I know your all gunna whine and flame me but damn ... Clan gear IS better then IS gear.

Sorry but thats been the same wether you are in TT or CG. Clan tech is designed to be more efficient, with higher damage out put and lower heat and weight, and yes sorry to break the bad news but because of that the clans do kick the IS's ***.

Now incase the people who are whining about Clan gear being so much better and it drawing all the people to it, realize this, IS mechs tend to be heavier on the armor side and with slightly better speed for heavy and Assault classes. So yes it balances it out.

but sitting there and saying that clans are going to be just the same as inner sphere is not holding to what the game is supposed to be about. so i say nay

[SilentObserver]

Your right clan tech is better. Significantly better across the board. Ton for Ton a Clan mech will trounce an IS Mech.

Which is why Clan vs IS matches should allow more tonnage/mechs for the IS team. This sticks with lore because the clanners should have bid the minimum amount of forces necessary to complete the objective.

Clanners should expect to be outnumbered in almost every battle.

[Rabbit Blacksun]

exactly and until CT (clan tech) becomes more common that should be part of it, As in lore that was about the only wins (sometimes) that the IS got from Clan battles ^.^

[geck0 icaza]

Alaskan Viking, on 20 January 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

This is an 8 vs 8 multi player FPS/action game, you can't have one side that is totally superior in weapons, no matter what kind of rigorous selection process you have to keep "noobs" out of the clan factions, you just cannot do it, peroid.

There are going to be some very disappointed Clanners on here when they find out that the Clan tech has been perfectly balanced to the same level as IS tech, probably with higher over heat problems to make up for greater range/damage etc. or implemented as high tier tech avaliable to every high level character, reguardless of faction, Clan and IS alike.

clearly not paying attention to what devs have been saying. Not even going there.


But either way, I understand completely where you are coming from with the moral choices that need to be made when moving to the clans. And I even understand the rational with performing good enough. But I plainly don't think it will happen. simple rational: its a game. I'm not going to elaborate because I believe you've demonstrated enough intelligence to know what I mean by that.

But to counter, and bluntly: several of my friends and myself would trash every IS mech we have the second the Clans released if that is the price to be paid. My original thought was to enhance the time playing for individuals like us and other clanners until that time came, and not make that time meaningless. With the addition of giving those players further incentive to pay for things that could potentially transfer over. Without that I can easily see players going "I'm not buying anything cause I'm just going to lose it when my faction is playable".

I thank you again for your input

[Ravn]

Alaskan Viking, on 20 January 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

This is an 8 vs 8 multi player FPS/action game, you can't have one side that is totally superior in weapons, no matter what kind of rigorous selection process you have to keep "noobs" out of the clan factions, you just cannot do it, peroid.

Sure we can. The bidding process. My clan can take that battle with less mechs than the "noobs," so we will underbid them. They will continue to sit on the sidelines until they bid low enough to play on even terms or unbalanced (in favor of IS). Chances are they won't fair well, and being a clanner will not seem so glamorous anymore.

Edit: This is probably the 100th time someone has mentioned this system.

Edited by Ravn, 21 January 2012 - 03:12 AM.

[Nerts]

That and Clanners will have to fight according to zellbrigen if they want honour/loyalty points, while the IS players have nothing stopping them from blowing up everything, using artillery and being generally underhanded.

[geck0 icaza]

These ideas are great but considering there have not been responses to the actual topic I'll take that as a sign that either A) no cares enough about the issue to post on it or no one disagrees too much on it.

As far as the bidding, The devs have always brought up game modes as a way of balancing the clan tech. Like setting up 5v8 when going Clan vs IS and such. Not once have a I seen/heard a dev say/write anything in regards to modifying the weapons/tech itself. Given the lean more towards source material I'm inclined to believe they are trying to find a way to implement Battle value in a way that is fair, fun and effective for the medium. As was stated in the pod caste "Clan tech broke the game.. until battle value was introduced there was nothing balancing it" I'm paraphrasing of course but you get the idea.

And as far as Clan honor points for playing a certain way or performing/not performing certain actions will get you more points sounds great. But so long as they stick with the all carrot no stick approach.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

according to the devs, on release each factions will have equal acess to mechs, but there price may vary, its likely to be the same when the clans invade to keep "balance"

Rabbit Blacksun, on 20 January 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Umm you really cant make clan tech the same as IS tech ... sorry to break it too you ... but that would make this nothing like BT ... I know your all gunna whine and flame me but damn ... Clan gear IS better then IS gear.

Sorry but thats been the same wether you are in TT or CG. Clan tech is designed to be more efficient, with higher damage out put and lower heat and weight, and yes sorry to break the bad news but because of that the clans do kick the IS's ***.

Now incase the people who are whining about Clan gear being so much better and it drawing all the people to it, realize this, IS mechs tend to be heavier on the armor side and with slightly better speed for heavy and Assault classes. So yes it balances it out.

but sitting there and saying that clans are going to be just the same as inner sphere is not holding to what the game is supposed to be about. so i say nay

have to agree here.

dont forget clan mainly use omni mechs which have limited customization posabilities (no engine armour or structure upgrades for people who dont know) compared to I.S battlemechs.also dont forget that omni mechs are more vulnerable to engine destruction due to there XL engines.

[Rabbit Blacksun]

yep and like stated earlier, that right there is a huge balancing factor, I can say for a fact that I loved people who played omni mechs during previous mech warrior games ...simply cause you CT is a much easier target to hit, sure offline mode i didnt necesarily get the mech, but i got the kill and won the mission, while my IS mech was still reletively undamaged outfit with some CTech weapons and i was golden.

As for the original post, I can see some of the skills transfering over, but at the same time i can also see you having to learn a whole new set of skills to compare to the new mechs and weapons you will have to deal with, obviously SRM's are not going to be needed to learn, since you have the CSRM which has lock on capabilities. but yeah the idea seems solid and stable.

[Doctor Horrible]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 21 January 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

dont forget clan mainly use omni mechs which have limited customization posabilities (no engine armour or structure upgrades for people who dont know) compared to I.S battlemechs.also dont forget that omni mechs are more vulnerable to engine destruction due to there XL engines.

I admit I do not know much about this subject other than what I have read here in the forums...so be kind as I ask/suggest something.

The concern is the balance shifting once the Clans show up, which is true to lore. If what Kodiak and others say is true about IS Mechs having some advantages in small areas, over time the balance will shift against the clans when IS starts incorporating CT. An IS Mech built with a better 'core' that starts using CT will have equivalent or even superior Mechs and it will back to pilot skill as the deciding factor. Having the game ebb and flow this way makes sense to me and would alleviate most of the concerns previously mentioned....I think.

[Rabbit Blacksun]

I think alot of people are concerned with what happened when microsoft took over the game for PC and that was the complete trashing of IS as being anything usefull, when in reality IS had several good designs, the warhammer as a anti air mech (Which was what it was specifically designed for) was scrapped because it wasnt usefull for slugging it out with the clan mechs (though I would have to say it worked pretty darn well)

But to be fair weapon wise clanners have the advantage and for a long time will have the advantage but thats part of their appeal to alot of people, to roll in with a lance and waste a star of IS just cause you can hit them from farther out, and deal more damage to boot is all people see, but when you start talking tactics and information flow, and numbers then the game changes and thats what people should be looking at it.

And indeed the balance did shift against the clans eventually, though you still have your fighting between the two (house and clan) its not as one sided.

Historicaly you are always going to have advances in weapons and tactics, even if the base tactic remains the same, so ebbing and flowing is good and i can definitly see the game doing that. Specially since we as the players are the ones that (possibly) are shaping the way it goes.

[Thorn Hallis]

I'm pretty sure the Devs know that implementing the Clans into MWO will be a tough challenge. And I'm also quite sure that they allready have some good ideas to make it balanced and fun for both factions.

[geck0 icaza]

Actually not all Omnis have XL engines. It is a popular choice that allows clanners to take even more weapons due to the fact that clan weapons take up less space. So the end result would would be that the side torsos become a viable way of hitting the engine and thus killing the mech. The IS have the XL option as well but its far less appealing because its more slots.

(translation: CLan XL engines could be severely damaged by knocking out a side torso but would still require another engine hit elsewhere to finish the job. Where as the IS version being much larger would only require you to knock out one side torso to kill the mech. Combine this with the larger space needed for a lot of IS weapons it becomes very difficult to justify the design)

Also, omni mechs would take hours to change configs, where as a battlemech would take days or even a week to do the same. So not being able to modify the chassis isn't much of a down side.

But untimely I'm excited by the fact I could be outnumbered by individuals who are going to use every trick in the book to kill me, but I am going get a big reward for fighting like a clanner and winning. I don't want a roll over, but I don't want a tech nerf. I rather just fight against more people

[Rabbit Blacksun]

damn right you can rest assured that i will use every trick... i mean strategy in the book when facing you >_>

[Jaroth Corbett]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 21 January 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

according to the devs, on release each factions will have equal acess to mechs, but there price may vary, its likely to be the same when the clans invade to keep "balance"



have to agree here.

dont forget clan mainly use omni mechs which have limited customization posabilities (no engine armour or structure upgrades for people who dont know) compared to I.S battlemechs.also dont forget that omni mechs are more vulnerable to engine destruction due to there XL engines.

Uhhhhhhhhh no. OmniMechs have LOTS of customization possibilites (that is essentially what an OMNImech is). The upgrades for engine & armor are standard issue for people who do not know (clearly you can count yourself as one of those people). I will edit this post later with quotes from the novels to highlight aforementioned points.

More vulnerable to engine destruc.......................

Here is an idea: Read a book before you make these statements.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 22 January 2012 - 08:06 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Unless it wasn't changed neither the engine nor the armor are omni-equipment. Time and cost for switching/changing them are the same for IS and Clan.

And XL engines still are more vulnerable, as one destroyed critical slot of the engine shuts the reactor down (again, unless it wasn't changed in the rules).