199 replies to this topic

[Outlaw2]

Graphite, on 23 January 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

You're ignoring the fact that creating a full mechlab is more work, and that models being accurate visual representations of the mech and its weapons is extremely important, and would be incredibly difficult to do with a full mechlab.

So MMLL devs have a hardpoint/pod system that allows any weapon to be swapped out for a similar sized one or group of smaller ones - no limit on weapon type.

If you want the correct weapons to be seen (and I'll happily bet my left arm that MWO will) then there is almost certainly going to have to be compromise between full customisation and feasibility
The MWLL system is the best compromised mechlab I've seen.

The heat system is what should be used to prevent laser boats.

The word on the street is the mechlab could have been released months ago. Just read comments by the devs on forums ... its very obvious they worry about the mechlab mucking things up. I think at this point they could have released a working mechlab.

Laser boats are not the only problem. I went through years of NBT league modding MW4 trying to squash laser boats. Rasing heat of lasesrs and the heat in general just made the next weapon down the line the boating FotM.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 23 January 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[SovietKoshka]

FFFHWOA well looks like any thing i could have said has all ready been said... though it would be fun if when you got to max level (or a really high level) you could from the ground up creat a 100% custom (but balanced) mech.
this would be done by first selecting a type (heavy, medium, light ect) then based on that type, frames/legs whatnot could be selected and thus mximum carry weight would be establised. after that power plant, then armor and wepons, then paint job.
curse my crappy spelling.

[Graphite]

=Outlaw=, on 23 January 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

The word on the street is the mechlab could have been released months ago. Just read comments by the devs on forums ... its very obvious they worry about the mechlab mucking things up. I think at this point they could have released a working mechlab.

They've said a full-on mechlab could muck up balance. They say some sort of compromised mechlab is likely (although to be fair they'e been saying that for a while), but there's plenty of other work to do first.

Quote

Laser boats are not the only problem. I went through years of NBT league modding MW4 trying to squash laser boats. Rasing heat of lasesrs and the heat in general just made the next weapon down the line the boating FotM.

Then i guess a little finer control is needed

Edited by Graphite, 23 January 2012 - 06:06 PM.

[ice trey]

I think that it should be unlimited, just like in the tabletop.

But also like the tabletop,customization should be a difficult, expensive task, and the more intense the customization job is, the greater the chance of messing up and horribly gimping your 'mech.

For example, a swap of your Medium Laser for an ER Medium laser or a heat sink should be an easy customization, but still have a high chance of failure on the field (~50%), and a nominal chance of failure in factory conditions (~20%)

On the other hand a big job like swapping an engine or putting a whole new loadout should be a high risk even inside of a factory (~70%), and nearly impossible in the field (~95%).

Also, if your 'mech breaks - something bad happens... really bad. Stuff like your ammo might explode in it's bins if you get hit too hard, your engine might dump excess heat into your 'mech at a constant rate, your tarcomp might short out, not even leaving you iron sights to work with. Hell, you might even be ejected mid-fight the minute you take damage. Any of these sorts of things could occur, if it doesn't downright ruin your 'mech and make it useless for anything but a few unaffected spare parts.

And on the money side, I'd say that it should also be expensive. Field refits wouldn't be that expensive, but taking it into the factory and getting a major overhaul should cost triple the cost of the 'mech you're customizing

With that, you get the customization system, but like in Battletech, it's VERY rare, and only done if you have money to throw at it and are willing to lose your precious baby. With this system in place, we'd probably see some field refits here and there, but a fully customized 'mech would be a very rare thing to see on the field.

Something that would make an alternative to customization that would lower the risk significantly could be Refit Kits, produced by factories, that come with installation gear and the components required. These could be used to refit your 'mech into one of it's canon Variants, such as converting the Catapult with LRMs into the Kuritan variant that puts PPCs on instead, or to turn your Hunchback's AC20 into a Missile array, or even a battery of Medium Lasers.

Edited by ice trey, 23 January 2012 - 06:10 PM.

[Paul Inouye]

No more than 3 feet in any given direction and must wear a GPS locator around their ankle!

[FinnMcKool]

The chance to make the Mech your way , the way you like it is always a good idea, but i have to bow to the ballance issue. but i like what Im seeing hear.

remember its a cruel universe out there.

[Outlaw2]

Graphite, on 23 January 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

They've said a full-on mechlab could muck up balance. They say some sort of compromised mechlab is likely (although to be fair they'e been saying that for a while), but there's plenty of other work to do first.

Then i guess a little finer control is needed

Finer control is needed. The problem with boating was never that you were packing a mech full of the same overpowered weapon. The problem laid in the huge advantage of taking all of the same weapon (any weapon) over taking a mixed loadout. With the same weapon you have the same recycle time for efficiently timed alpha strikes, and you have same projectile speeds and targeting methods. Its just a matter of finding the most efficient weapon to boat (or weapons with similar characteristics). Nerfing that "OP" weapon will never fix the root of the problem and you'll play constant wack a mole with the next OP weapon to be boated.

No amount of out pre-game penalties, or restrictive mech lab systems will do unfortunately, since at the end of the day whatever is most effective at boating in-game will dominate servers. I saw it happen in NBT even after they implemented an even more restrictive mechlab than MW4's and increased the league costs of "OP" boating mechs.

You need to go for the throat and take out the advantages in-game.

You need to take out boating's allure ... which is efficiency. And yea, its always better to go with a carrot and stick approach, than a nerf whoopass club. But essentially reward players for taking mixed loadouts and penalize players for boating all or mostly all of the same weapon. You reward and penalize with Mech in-game efficiency..even if they are small ones. Lets say that a "Intek" Medium lasers grants a 2% heat sink efficiency if paired with SRMs. Why? Who cares why. Just say its an arbitrary design feature of the "Intek" brand medium laser. At the same time pairing with another Intek med laser grants you nothing. Adding a third though penalizes you with a 2% heat sink inefficiency, 4% penalty with the fourth and so on. An "Argra 1L" Medium laser could have the same penalties, but be rewarded with say 1% speed increase if paired with AC5s, plus an additional 1% increase if a missile system of any type is added on the mech. You could make an endless amount of penalty/reward variants with just a single weapon type! And on the business side of things, more things for people to spend C-bills/RL-money on. : P

Edited by =Outlaw=, 23 January 2012 - 09:45 PM.

[Evinthal]

Well since this game is set in 3049, we don't have to worry about the Omni-mechs just yet. As for people talking about rebuilding a chasis with endo instead of standard, that should be a special modification and take a bit of money. So should being able to customize your 'mech to your hearts content.

The post about factories being switched on and left to build is pretty much spot on. If a new variant came along that modified a particular chasis in some way (upgrading engine, using endo vs standard) that took a retooling of the assembly line, or the building of another factory to do. Field modifications were a delicate issue too, as if you changed the load out for your mech and off blanaced it, your gyro had to be recalibrated in order for the 'mech to not tip over!

Now armor I can see being able to switch around pretty easily as it is an extrenal component that basically just gets welded/bolted on, but when you start mucking around with internal workings things get a bit more complicated. In the table top this required tech rolls. Some mercenary commands were very adept at pulling this off though (Here's looking at you Mech Magic Inc./Battle Magic...).

Personally I would LOVE to see custimization, but I really think it should be earned and take some work to get. Not just handed out to every rookie. That is why we have different variants of 'mech after all.

[Commander Melvin]

Im all for mech customization, there is nothing better than being able to have a load out that is completely unique based on your playing style. MW4 had a pretty descent mech lab so i would at least like to see something as good or better

[Elizander]

The Boneshaman, on 22 January 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

If they go by the MW games where if the retical is on your target than you hit it. but if they go by something like World of Tanks where your tank and the enemy could be at a stand still, your retical is on the target and you can still miss by fireing to low and if both stay puit you can miss by firing to high even if you dont move the tank or the gun. If they go by WoT than theirs a chance of missing with your the 6 PPCs or 4 gauss.

Also if they incorporate torso twisting and weapon turret movement speed to 'slow the game down' it will make the game more tactical. Giving people instant aiming through mouse movement and reflexes alone is one thing they took away from the tank game. It doesn't matter if I can aim my crosshairs on your mech in 0.2 seconds if my torso twist and weapon turret movement takes longer than that to align to where I want to hit. This alone will take out the extreme twitch factor advantage that good FPS gamers have and will smooth out latency issues from people who don't have good internet.

[RedHairDave]

it would be nice if no customization was aloud to start. just to get balance worked out. if there are enough variants(as exists in cannon) then there would be no need. once the omni's come, well thats a different story. although by then, the devs should have time to see what works and what doesnt. i do not want to see mechs with nothing but ppc's or gauss. that isnt what mechwarrior is about. maybe have energy weapons do something special, maybe impart heat. projectile weapons have a better chance of finding a way into he armour and hitting internals, and missiles have a chance of blowing a armour place right off or something, maybe knocking the mech right over. so people want a mix of all 3 types to have the best chance of messing with their enemies. and make the benifit dwindle with volume. 2 lazer hits impart almost as much heat at 3 and till 5 there is almost no change and above that is even more minimal. same for all other types. make haveing all 3 be the best chance to do the most damage. but a bunch of similar weapons, only get a little of what is available. so all ppc's would give some heat, but 3 doing only a little more than one. gauss rifles would have a chance of critical damage, but 3 only a marginal amount more than one, and missle packs would have a chance to remove the armour of a location totally or knock the mech over or something, but again, 3 only a little more than one.

[Tannhauser Gate]

No user created mechs. Im ok with creating variants that would be in line with canon, replacing weapons ( energy for energy, ballistic for ballistic etc.) and systems on canon variants and other personalization but I dont want to see any franken mechs, uber mechs, or anything not canon.

This isnt Lego Mech. The canon mechs are iconic and shouldnt be deviated from too much.

[KingCobra]

I have to dive back in on this topic.First and for most MW:0 need a full mech lab just like it needs nose art and custom decals when you start to take away the fun things about mechwarrior for the boring sterile things your talking about the game just is not a fun game anymore.It would suit me fine to have a Stock Variant then a-f stock TT/CBT variants but then i want to spend hours in my mechlab making my own designs.There should be limits though like no MIX TECH thats what i hated about MW4 mechlabs.(IS weapons for IS)( Clan weapons for Clan) if they implement the clans and some rules on weapons slots based on the mech chassis designs and tonnages and roles the mechs play in the new MW:0 game.And this might be a better suggestion than just(ow no full lab no customization outside of stock TT,CBT)i say that is rubbish and a full working mechlab is needed to make the game a great game.

Edited by KingCobra, 24 January 2012 - 08:58 AM.

[Brakkyn]

They shouldn't be allowed.

[MaddMaxx]

KingCobra, on 24 January 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

I have to dive back in on this topic.First and for most MW:0 need a full mech lab just like it needs nose art and custom decals when you start to take away the fun things about mechwarrior for the boring sterile things your talking about the game just is not a fun game anymore.It would suit me fine to have a Stock Variant then a-f stock TT/CBT variants but then i want to spend hours in my mechlab making my own designs.There should be limits though like no MIX TECH thats what i hated about MW4 mechlabs.(IS weapons for IS)( Clan weapons for Clan) if they implement the clans and some rules on weapons slots based on the mech chassis designs and tonnages and roles the mechs play in the new MW:0 game.And this might be a better suggestion than just(ow no full lab no customization outside of stock TT,CBT)i say that is rubbish and a full working mechlab is needed to make the game a great game.

@KingCobra

When was the last time you played in a real Competitive Game of MW? If it has been a long time, ask yourself why that is? Is it because the other MW games were great AND had open Mechlabs? Can't be that right, otherwise you and me and many many other would still be playing the Game full time.

From what I have read that is not the case. There has to be a reason. That reason is the MechLabs of those games. MW4 tried to curb the craziness but in the end the "Custom 1000 Yard Stare" gameplay made it a joke. Do you want to go back there. It will take way less time with MWO as we all know how to best tweak the most of of Mechs based on past experience.

Anyways. I hope you get what you want and I hope it is not the cause for another MW game to go by the wayside after the return of the "Custom 1000 Yard Stare" gameplay that ultimately results.

How do you define a Full working MechLab? Is that Full Open or with Restrictions and where does the line get drawn. Mixed Tech is 18+ months out?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 24 January 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[Shortfuse Zalman]

Perfect custom setup - CD Player , MTX Squardrivers and a cup holder...... Locked,Cocked and ready to Rock.

[Unclecid]

while i like mucking about in a mech lab and even helped make one that worked in your browser, i think it should be limited to what we can do.

basically i would be happy just being able to remove MGs and all that ammo and slap on a bit more armour.

otherwise....

i think it should cost alot and the mech be outta commsion for an amount of time.

one of the perks of being a higher rank in a House should be ability to get mods done to your mek.

for mercs, really the only one doing it / gving the ok shoudl be the merc company owner/operator/leader

as for lone wolfs, they are rich kids right?

[TheRulesLawyer]

=Outlaw=, on 23 January 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

Finer control is needed. The problem with boating was never that you were packing a mech full of the same overpowered weapon. The problem laid in the huge advantage of taking all of the same weapon (any weapon) over taking a mixed loadout. With the same weapon you have the same recycle time for efficiently timed alpha strikes, and you have same projectile speeds and targeting methods. Its just a matter of finding the most efficient weapon to boat (or weapons with similar characteristics). Nerfing that "OP" weapon will never fix the root of the problem and you'll play constant wack a mole with the next OP weapon to be boated.

Pretty the nail on the head. You need to fix why boating works. I'm not against boats per se, just what people do with them.

So what are the advantages of boating?
1) Range management is easier- all weapons in range at same time
2) Group management is easier- no need to setup and switch groups per bracket.
3) Alpha striking is more effective mostly due to 1 and 2.

First you need to disallow or make alpha strike have a big down side. Shutting down isn't big enough. If he's dead and you're cooling its often not a big deal. Alpha strikes should be spread damage even more than normal whatever targeting system you use. Also in fiction mechs don't always have enough power to fire all their weapons at once.

That alone might be enough. If you can't effectively fire everything at once there is less reason not to have multiple groups and be a little more flexible.

You can help group management. You could create a system that will automatically switch fire groups based on target distance. I could preset brackets for my weapons groups so I always have the best ones active for a given range.

The range management issue you can't really address in a meaningful way I think other than having enough terrain that its hard to pick you range all the time.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"You can help group management. You could create a system that will automatically switch fire groups based on target distance. I could preset brackets for my weapons groups so I always have the best ones active for a given range."

How about make that system active while inside the mech lab. When you add a weapon, it gets auto added to a group of other weapons within that Range group.

Although surely to be controversial, the Dev could then limit the # of weapons allowed of a certain Range per group and when the group is full, another is auto added and begins being populated. That way firing all your Lasers in any range bracket might require a trigger pull, then a group change command and another trigger pull. Even a macro that auto switched to the next group doesn't help as you cannot fire all of any one Ranged grouping at once.

Such that the 1st, 2nd 3rd LL go into group 1, the 4th has to go into Group 2. Same for all Ranges.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

There is another problem with how even small changes can affect balance. Take the standard Hunchback. To improve survivability I wan't to drop the Small Laser and fit CASE. Depending on how they model AC's and missiles and their crit seeking ability I could have just improved my chance of surviving on the battlefield by a factor of 3x or 4x - a not inconsiderable matter for what seems a small initial change. All of the mechs shown so far carry ammo, with all the possibilities of mech death that brings. I can think of many other small changes that can affect balance just as much.
Against this background we have people saying that having the ability to effectively design and build a completely new mech "on the fly" is absolutely "vital" to the success of the game.
I find it interesting that despite these people saying that they want to "build" and "tinker" with their mech designs, very few people posted designs in the two threads dedicated to this on the forum.
The other point I would like to make is that at the start we have only Level 1 tech guaranteed, we don't know if the limited Level 2 tech will actually be available.. These mechs are going to play very differently from any previous MW game.

Edit: like your suggestion Maxx.

Edited by Nik Van Rhijn, 24 January 2012 - 10:59 AM.