199 replies to this topic

[Outlaw2]

TheRulesLawyer, on 24 January 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Pretty the nail on the head. You need to fix why boating works. I'm not against boats per se, just what people do with them.

So what are the advantages of boating?
1) Range management is easier- all weapons in range at same time
2) Group management is easier- no need to setup and switch groups per bracket.
3) Alpha striking is more effective mostly due to 1 and 2.

First you need to disallow or make alpha strike have a big down side. Shutting down isn't big enough. If he's dead and you're cooling its often not a big deal. Alpha strikes should be spread damage even more than normal whatever targeting system you use. Also in fiction mechs don't always have enough power to fire all their weapons at once.

That alone might be enough. If you can't effectively fire everything at once there is less reason not to have multiple groups and be a little more flexible.

You can help group management. You could create a system that will automatically switch fire groups based on target distance. I could preset brackets for my weapons groups so I always have the best ones active for a given range.

The range management issue you can't really address in a meaningful way I think other than having enough terrain that its hard to pick you range all the time.

Nerfing alpha strikes will help, but wont get rid of boating. It will of course negate one of its advantages, but chain firing all the of the same weapon is still better than chain firing a whole bunch of different weapons with different ranges and targeting methods.

The biggest problem with boating imo is that it tends to trivializes the majority of the game's content. The mojority of mechs/variants end up being worthless crap due to not being able to boat the right weapons.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 24 January 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"The biggest problem with boating imo is that it tends to trivializes the majority of the game's content. The mojority of mechs/variants end up being worthless crap due to not being able to boat the right weapons."

Solution = Stock Mechs or a STRICT Mechlab environment. Neither would be popular but would eliminate the problem. Yes, the Stock world has Boats, no question. But those Boats would have to be designed and implemented by the Dev. If they wanted a Boat in the game why not make it one of the first 4? Why wait?

Two things are already obvious. There will be many controversial items presented as the developmentt goes forward. The other is the Dev will keep the most controversial items close to the vest until they no longer can.

Oh and a third item.

Things are going to get very interesting around here in the coming months. LOL!

Edited by MaddMaxx, 24 January 2012 - 12:04 PM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

=Outlaw=, on 24 January 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Nerfing alpha strikes will help, but wont get rid of boating. It will of course negate one of its advantages, but chain firing all the of the same weapon is still better than chain firing a whole bunch of different weapons with different ranges and targeting methods.

The biggest problem with boating imo is that it tends to trivializes the majority of the game's content. The mojority of mechs/variants end up being worthless crap due to not being able to boat the right weapons.

I'm not really trying to get rid of boating. There are canon boats after all. I'm just trying to figure out ways to negate *why* people boat. Simple thing is aside from alpha is that it's easier to manage a simple load out.

In the end you want boating to the the low skill cap option. Easy to use, but not as effective as having a variety of weapons. Not sure how to manage that.

[Tannhauser Gate]

KingCobra, on 24 January 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

...First and for most MW:0 need a full mech lab just like it needs nose art and custom decals when you start to take away the fun things about mechwarrior for the boring sterile things your talking about the game just is not a fun game anymore.It would suit me fine to have a Stock Variant then a-f stock TT/CBT variants but then i want to spend hours in my mechlab making my own designs.There should be limits though like no MIX TECH thats what i hated about MW4 mechlabs.(IS weapons for IS)( Clan weapons for Clan) if they implement the clans and some rules on weapons slots based on the mech chassis designs and tonnages and roles the mechs play in the new MW:0 game.And this might be a better suggestion than just(ow no full lab no customization outside of stock TT,CBT)i say that is rubbish and a full working mechlab is needed to make the game a great game.

BT is boring and sterile? Constructing your own non canon mechs is like constructing your own WWII tanks. While it could be fun, it has *no* place in the history and changes things to some alternate timeline where youd have "what if we have uber Daishis and jumping 4- armed Nova Cats". Its a door that shouldnt be opened. While *you* might respect canon in your designs, others wont.

PGI is trying hard to bring BT to life with accurate history and battles. Creating non canon mechs would not only be a distraction but it would actively derail the effort to create the BT immersion for the players. Maybe someone will create a game that allows full mech creation but I suspect it will be far from what many BT fans would want.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 24 January 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Sum Ting Wong, on 24 January 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

As long as it doesn't go beyond a mech's 'traditional' weight limit? I don't care. I want to see what people can do with their imagination, as difficult to code as it would be.

It's not difficult to code at all. This is not what we have been discussing. It's that you end up with Min/max munchkinisation reducing any variety or variation.

[Outlaw2]

TheRulesLawyer, on 24 January 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

I'm not really trying to get rid of boating. There are canon boats after all. I'm just trying to figure out ways to negate *why* people boat. Simple thing is aside from alpha is that it's easier to manage a simple load out.

In the end you want boating to the the low skill cap option. Easy to use, but not as effective as having a variety of weapons. Not sure how to manage that.

I simply don't want boating to be the only sane option in a competitive enviroment..which leads to only a few weapons/mechs as worthwhile options. Manage that with in-game penalties and bonuses like I described above. Its a solution ive never seen done before and frankly most ideas posted here have been done before in one form or another and have failed to produce their intended outcome. Decreased accuracy for alphas strikes has been brought many times in mech forums, but never implemented in a mw game afaik..so its worth trying out.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 24 January 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[Outlaw2]

MaddMaxx, on 24 January 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Solution = Stock Mechs or a STRICT Mechlab environment. Neither would be popular but would eliminate the problem. Yes, the Stock world has Boats, no question. But those Boats would have to be designed and implemented by the Dev. If they wanted a Boat in the game why not make it one of the first 4? Why wait?

Two things are already obvious. There will be many controversial items presented as the developmentt goes forward. The other is the Dev will keep the most controversial items close to the vest until they no longer can.

Oh and a third item.

Things are going to get very interesting around here in the coming months. LOL!

You are right... neither would be popular ; ). However, I don't mind a somewhat restrictive mechlab, maybe even something more restrictive than MW4s. But unless you outright restrict it (not going to happen I think) then you will need something extra to counter boating over dominance.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 24 January 2012 - 03:17 PM.

[Graphite]

LakeDaemon, on 24 January 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

PGI is trying hard to bring BT to life with accurate history and battles. Creating non canon mechs would not only be a distraction but it would actively derail the effort to create the BT immersion for the players. Maybe someone will create a game that allows full mech creation but I suspect it will be far from what many BT fans would want.

They are also trying to make a fun and popular game. Many, many people absolutely love designing their own custom mechs and fighting in them.

Sum Ting Wong, on 24 January 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

Yeah, because it's not difficult to code mechs so that each and every part of them to be completely interchangable, customizable and compartmental for players to mix and match at will.

You've got no idea. At all.

This seems quite rude, and it's incorrect.

Adding a full mechlab would undoubtedly be a lot of extra work for PGI (compared to not having one), but coding one is absolutely no problem at all.
There are many BT mech design programs around that do just that (I'm the author of one).

The problem with having a full mechlab in MW (besides kids in laser boats) is that it would be very difficult to attach weapon models to chassis models for any possible design in a way that didn't look ridiculous - THAT would be hard/near impossible, and is why I think we'll probably just get a hardpoint system

[KingCobra]

This topic of a full or limited mechlab is really crazy some want a sterile TT/cbt Mechlab where if 1 laser is wrong from there CBT lists they might have a heart attack and another group thinks by taking off a lbx20 and replacing it with 2 ac5 id a mechanized abortion.All the PC mechwarrior games (had mech labs)so players could customize there mechs.Some want no mech lab like Mechassault which would be a disaster in the making.All i said was (if it is a IS mech only allow IS weapons to be interchanged)(if they put clans in Clan weapons could only go on clan mechs)(I DON'T WANT MIXTECH MECHS)in MW:0.And i said the mechs need to be limited to there hard wired mech slots if you have a missile slot missiles only and laser slots lasers only,etc on all mech chassis.Just because you have a slot that fits a large laser in does not mean i cant replace it with 3 med lasers? sure you can as long as they match the slot and the tonnage.As far as boating lets make clear what i said.(I would do away with the alpha strike and limit ether the time between chain fire shots or how many weapons groups you could chain)is this so hard to understand?Which would stop the boating without nerfing the mechs designs or load outs.

[Black Sunder]

people seem to be forgetting that we have alot better info-war now. If a scout detects you hiding behind a building no one is going to step out infront of it to get shot. Same thing applies to hills and other terrain. Scouts will detect you, share the info and LRMs and other missiles will come flying in. People also seem to forget that by going all in one one weapon or group of weapons you become vulnerable to everything those weapons cannot do. Another thing is that we're not starting as one big group(thank you NGNG) nor are we all right at each other's throats when a match starts.

And since people will want to put as many on as possible they will ditch armor, electronics and anything else just to have more firepower. You give up to weapon up. It balances itself.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Graphite, on 24 January 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

They are also trying to make a fun and popular game. Many, many people absolutely love designing their own custom mechs and fighting in them.

Bad. It would be popular with younger people who want to build their own avatars like Spore that happen to be mechs.
Bad It would not work with a game like MWO that is supposed to specifically evolve along the BT time line with iconic mechs.
Bad. Snapping together your own mechs belongs on a console title like MA and not a sim.
Bad. Building your mechs would play HELL with hit boxes, make the combat silly because it would encourage boating and uber mechs, and would render the iconic mechs obsolete... kiss of death for any BT game.

This game is about playing *in* the BT historical context, not about diverging from it.

[Graphite]

LakeDaemon, on 24 January 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Bad. It would be popular with younger people who want to build their own avatars like Spore that happen to be mechs.

We need younger players too.
It would also be popular with older players. (I'm "old").

Quote

Bad It would not work with a game like MWO that is supposed to specifically evolve along the BT time line with iconic mechs.

The players will only represent an infinitesimally small portion of the universe. Nothing the players do will affect canon history.

Quote

Bad. Snapping together your own mechs belongs on a console title like MA and not a sim.

What?! This is absolute rubbish - designing mechs is part of the TT version i.e. as far from a console game as you can get...

Quote

Bad. Building your mechs would play HELL with hit boxes, make the combat silly because it would encourage boating and uber mechs, and would render the iconic mechs obsolete... kiss of death for any BT game.

Kiss of death? Almost every BT game made has had some form of mech customisation
What do you mean about hit boxes? I think that worry may belong to the past...
I hate laser boats as much as anyone. Tweak the heat system to prevent them, don't deny customisation.

Quote

This game is about playing *in* the BT historical context, not about diverging from it.

Like I said, custom design won't affect history.

BTW, don't go thinking I'm against canon - I have actually been in other arguments here where my views are considered the pro-canon point of view!

Canon is good, gameplay is vital. I (and plenty of others) will be disappointed if there's no customisation.

[John Flenaly]

For launch, not an inch. Stock and cannon variants only. Get the game down and tight, then worry about a mechlab and all the headaches that will bring.

[Kilson]

How bout we -Roll Play the MechLab a little.

No Mechwarrior stands alone, it takes a crew to maintain a mech in fighting order. Starting off you should not have a dedicated Tech, let alone a crew.

As a new Mechwarrior you rely on the support provided by your house, clan, guild, organization or client . Even if you have the money they don't have the time... and your not important enough for them to worry about.

As you rank up, and earn more respect the techs will do more for you... for a cost...

This way later on players can customize there Mech, but at the start we have stock.

Or....

You can see if there is a free lance Tech that you can hire... for a time.. ( A new place to spend excess C-Bills )

Based on there rating (skills) they can mod your mech. The higher the skill the less the cost and time...


Give them stats- Name - age - gender - ect.. and personality - Some are Happy to get to work.. Others are grumpy -- ect... Keep them happy and make sure they get there cheek on time..

Rate Skills - Give rating such as - Novice - Green - Experienced - Specialist - Genius ect..


Break the Skills Down

Repair Skill =
Armor -
Control -
Frame-
Power-
Gyro -
Weapons-
ect-

Give them traits - These only show up after they have been working for awhile..

Mech Specialist- This Tech knows this Mech better than they know there own body. 20% off repair cost and time --

Gadget lover - Keeps on top of the Tech news..- Has a chance to get New/Rare weapons... Or even Beta Test weapons

Mr/Ms Fixit - Has a micro chance of restoring destroyed components, and cuts repair cost / time by a small % such as 1-5%

Scavenger - can find replacement parts for cheep - or small chance of getting parts free--- Just don't ask where they came from.. and if the lance commander ask about his missing ... well never mind ...

Out Side of the Box- has an easier time fitting systems where they were not meant to go..

Ect..

Dont keep the Tech static ether -
send them to class for a cost and time-

Edited by Kilson, 24 January 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[Rand 3065MUX]

None at all... book mechs and variants released in Record Sheets and Technical Readouts only ... and no more Clans .. please!

Oldtech is when it was fun and strategic ... Clan tech was a of trying to turn it in to Gundam or some other anime

[Tannhauser Gate]

Graphite, on 24 January 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

<snip>

Whatever. I stand with 90% of the people here since they agree with no user-built mechs. It doesnt belong in this game.. at all. Maybe someone will make a version of MW that allows players to make all the uber franken mechs they want. Leave the canon to the BT fans.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 24 January 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[warpig07]

aw but i liked my annihilator of gods with 4 LBXAC20s, you feel awesome knocking down an atlas or fafnir with an alpha strike >

[That Guy]

Rand 3065MUX, on 24 January 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

Oldtech is when it was fun and strategic ... Clan tech was a of trying to turn it in to Gundam or some other anime

ummm what? all the clan weapons were the same as IS ones, just better. all the "new weapons" are generally IS made. you thinking strieght?

anyway, i am in favor of limited customization. the devs have mentioned that each mech will have its own "efficiency tree" that will be unlocked as you spend more time in that mech. i am hopeing that this will tie into customization in some fasion. (sort of representing your techs level of confort and familiarity with each particular mech chassis)

for example when a mech is new (low ep) the crew basically can fix damage and replace damaged components. as the mech levels up your crew can progressively start replacing more things (swap equivilant systems, new sensor suit add a HS etc) with higher efficiency and less chance of it breaking wile in the field. once the mech is at max "level" your crew is skilled enough that they can preform major overhauls like swapping out engines, and maybe even internal structure. provided you have the cash, and have a few REAL days to wait wile the mech is at the shop.
on the down side (to balance) customizing your mech to a high degree should cost more than just buying anouther approximate chassis, and the upkeep costs for a custom mech should be higher to account for all the extra doodads and fuzzy dice dry cleaning.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

@That Guy - you may well be right. The thing is that all previous MW games have been designed as Single Player PvE where you had to defeat waves of bot mechs. Multiplayer was an add on. This is the first multiplayer PvP only MW game. The problem comes with balance.
We will be starting out with the traditional IS Level1 Tech mechs. We don't know yet if they will include any of the limited Level 2 Tech.

Say they balance everything out in playtesting. Lasers ablate armour, ACs punch holes and they and missiles have chances of getting crtical hits. Ammo explosions are to be feared as they can kill a mech. Many IS mechs have some ammo dependant weapons and all of those shown so far have.

I take my standard Hunchback and decide I'll drop the small laser for CASE, for whatever the cost and time penalty is. The mech is now far more survivable and unlikly to blow up if people target my right torso. Is the game still balanced in the same way?
The problem is that the basic game was never set up to be balanced with pure mech v mech PvP computer combat with unlimited customisation. Given how few mechs we have been shown so far I can't see us having a wide choice at launch and I would expect them to be vary carefully chosen by PGI to make their balancing "easier".

To people who have only played MW they will find the original IS mechs "underpowered" from those they are used to from previous titles.
the other thing is that most of the "Iconic" mechs, with the exception of the Warhammer, Marauder and Awesome (non of which are in yet) are fairly dependant on ammo based weapons, with fairly limited stocks of it as well.

[Graphite]

LakeDaemon, on 24 January 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Whatever. I stand with 90% of the people here since they agree with no user-built mechs. It doesnt belong in this game.. at all. Maybe someone will make a version of MW that allows players to make all the uber franken mechs they want. Leave the canon to the BT fans.

!!!? Surely you aren't serious? You think 90% don't want any customisation?

Wasn't there a poll on this? I'll try to find it...

In the mean-time, why don't you try a poll of your own. Make one of the options: "No customised mechs of any sort. They don't belong in this game, at all."

...and I'll bet you that option gets less than 50% of votes.