71 replies to this topic

[TheRulesLawyer]

I always figured AC's were like this anyways. They could fire far quicker in respect to the 10s round in BT than lasers could.

How you make AC and Ultra AC different is this-
AC are semi-auto weapons. One trigger pull fires one shell.
Ultra Semi/Burst mode. Burst fires a 2-3 round burst
RAC are auto. Fire as long as you hold the trigger down.

Give all the AC's a heat gauge of their own. They overheat the barrel and they risk a jam.

[Graphite]

Thorn Hallis, on 23 January 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

I'm no friend of this. TacOps has some nice extra-rules, but I like my Autocannons the way they always were.

What, mostly outclassed by lasers?

Strum Wealh, on 23 January 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

Your thoughts?

You can't go putting random jams in a real time game - people will hate it. Just adjust the firing rate to approximate it.

Dlardrageth, on 23 January 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

*irony*

Also, can we haz X-Pulse lasorZ and VSP lasorZ , NSS and SuperchargorZ? As standard equipment of course. kkthxbb

*/irony*

Not irony (not even close).

The thread isn't suggesting advanced or experimental weapons.
It's suggesting using an optional (official) rule that would apply to all standard ACs, in all time periods.

To sum it up very simply in an approximate fashion: increase the firing rate of standard AC (still less than Ultra ACs) - and a reminder, this is an official (optional) BT TT rule.

I love the "feel"/"character" of ACs and I want to see more used, but without the (official, optional) increase in rate of fire they are definitely second class weapons.

[ice trey]

No, not really.

What they should get is increased accuracy. Where an AC20 is going to be difficult to aim (Thus the short ranged bracket), the ac 5 and 2 should be close to pinpoint accurate, so that they can reliably hit targets from a distance (Though not so accurate that you can leg a target without difficulty at 800 meters).

However, double-rate on a vanilla autocannon would make a handy mod, though it would have to be something you could turn on and off, and have the chance of jamming the autocannon each time it's used at double-rate, just like with an Ultra AC.

[Alicorn]

Psydotek, on 22 January 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

I still want to see autocannon variants though that have different firing rates yet the same DPS.

Agreed. Why settle for the usual gamut of 2/5/10/20 autocannons, when I can choose a whole slew of AC-5s? From constant-spray feather dusters, to drills, plinkers, and kickers, all within the same class. I think variants would be great with any weapon - and it'd add to the feel of the universe as well.

Graphite, on 23 January 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

You can't go putting random jams in a real time game - people will hate it. Just adjust the firing rate to approximate it.

I think that jamming could be handled quite easily - as an example, the RACs jammed quite often in MW4. (Even Fallout3 had an efficient in-game jamming mechanic.) And all that you need to do to minimize jams while playing is to fire in controlled bursts - but having the ability to just unload in a tight spot is invaluble. And besides, jams are part of what balances the RACs and such.

[Graphite]

Alicorn, on 23 January 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

I think that jamming could be handled quite easily - as an example, the RACs jammed quite often in MW4.

Yeah, but RACs can be unjammed in the field, other ACs can't.

I agree it's not hard to do, but it's easy to annoy a lot of players with it.

Alicorn, on 23 January 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

And besides, jams are part of what balances the RACs and such.

Very true, which is why if you removed jamming you would want to decrease rate of fire to compensate (the risk of jamming is intended to keep rate of fire down).

Edited by Graphite, 23 January 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[MechWarrior06702]

Personally, I hope they keep the autocannons to strictly the Level 2 tech found in TRO 3050.

Two reasons:
1) Simplicity

It'd be easy to have a game with Light, Standard, Ultra, Hyper-Velocity, and LB-X Autocannon's in the game, along with all thier special munitions; it would NOT be easy to have a well balanced and fast paced game with all those things. The designers are going to have to strike a balance between complexity and quality here, and I feel that the 3050 tech gives enough balance for the initial release.

2) Scaleablity

This is a mistake that WoW, several other MMO's*, and even the original Battletech made; that is, how do you set up the game in such a way that it can be expanded upon in the future? Imagine if were given all the tech that currently exists in the Battletech universe? Heck, even just the Level 2 stuff? Technological progress is already an established fact of Battletech canon, so I think we should incorporate it here.

Iceman
* Yes, I know this isn't strictly an MMO, but it the game does have an element of persistance to it.

[Graphite]

Williams Iceman Avon, on 23 January 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Personally, I hope they keep the autocannons to strictly the Level 2 tech found in TRO 3050.

Hmm, it's a common misconception that this thread is talking about advanced tech.

It's not. It's talking about an official (optional) rule change that would apply to the full BT timeline, and even for "level 1 tech".

It's a change to standard ACs (official, optional), to make them competitive with lasers.

[VYCanis]

I really hate the idea of TT jam chances being applied literally as real time jam chances. TT jam chances in any game that features them always have to be absurdly high for turn based game balance reasons.

anyhow, instead of taking the rules verbatim, how's about this

Regular ACs- fire however they are gonna fire, but feature barrel overheat as a limiting factor to how long they can sustain fire.
Regular ACs firing in rapid mode, suffer increased recoil of firing faster, and the high ROF tends to cause them to overheat far quicker.

Ultra ACs- when firing in rapid mode aren't quite as accurate as standard ACs of the same class, but more accurate than standard ACs on rapid mode, and can sustain their higher ROF longer, dialing down to 1x speed they are on equal terms to standard ACs.

RACs- big scary bullet hoses, dialing the speed lower allows you to sustain fire longer with better accuracy, dialing it up, loses accuracy and gains heat faster to spit that much ordinance at such a high rate.

If you let the gun overheat, it goes offline for a bit.

no worrying about stupid arbitrary jam chances.

[Solis Obscuri]

My $0.02

ACs: fire bursts, reload more quickly than equivalent energy weapons
UltraACs: reload twice as fast as ACs
RACs: shouldn't be in at launch. If they come in later, the devs will have had enough time to balance out the other weapon types, and hopefully they can be introduced without issues.

As for jams, I think they shouldn't be a random chance, and I don't think they should lock you out a whole match. I'd rather they were a slight risk when running too hot, and would only disable the weapon temporarily, and get cleared after a few seconds.

As for the TacOps... sounds a little complicated for what benefit it provides, all in all. I'd rather just have a gun that does what it says it does.

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 23 January 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[Volume]

VYCanis, on 23 January 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

I really hate the idea of TT jam chances being applied literally as real time jam chances. TT jam chances in any game that features them always have to be absurdly high for turn based game balance reasons.

anyhow, instead of taking the rules verbatim, how's about this

Regular ACs- fire however they are gonna fire, but feature barrel overheat as a limiting factor to how long they can sustain fire.
Regular ACs firing in rapid mode, suffer increased recoil of firing faster, and the high ROF tends to cause them to overheat far quicker.

Ultra ACs- when firing in rapid mode aren't quite as accurate as standard ACs of the same class, but more accurate than standard ACs on rapid mode, and can sustain their higher ROF longer, dialing down to 1x speed they are on equal terms to standard ACs.

RACs- big scary bullet hoses, dialing the speed lower allows you to sustain fire longer with better accuracy, dialing it up, loses accuracy and gains heat faster to spit that much ordinance at such a high rate.

If you let the gun overheat, it goes offline for a bit.

no worrying about stupid arbitrary jam chances.

I am a big fan of this.

Like, really, a lot. I know it's probably just a solution that came off the top of your head, but this is the kind of functionality that this game needs. No RNG at all - pure, balanced, skill-based mechanics that differentiate the weaponry. So +1 to this until a better idea is found (assuming a better idea is found, which it might not be.)

Graphite, on 23 January 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Hmm, it's a common misconception that this thread is talking about advanced tech.

It's not. It's talking about an official (optional) rule change that would apply to the full BT timeline, and even for "level 1 tech".

It's a change to standard ACs (official, optional), to make them competitive with lasers.

I don't see how people assumed it was "advanced" tech considering a regular AC is about as non-advanced as you can get. I think that people feel mixed about the rule because in MW and BT as they've been playing it, an AC does not fire twice with a chance to jam, it just fires once.

Williams Iceman Avon, on 23 January 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Personally, I hope they keep the autocannons to strictly the Level 2 tech found in TRO 3050.

Two reasons:
1) Simplicity

It'd be easy to have a game with Light, Standard, Ultra, Hyper-Velocity, and LB-X Autocannon's in the game, along with all thier special munitions; it would NOT be easy to have a well balanced and fast paced game with all those things. The designers are going to have to strike a balance between complexity and quality here, and I feel that the 3050 tech gives enough balance for the initial release.

2) Scaleablity

This is a mistake that WoW, several other MMO's*, and even the original Battletech made; that is, how do you set up the game in such a way that it can be expanded upon in the future? Imagine if were given all the tech that currently exists in the Battletech universe? Heck, even just the Level 2 stuff? Technological progress is already an established fact of Battletech canon, so I think we should incorporate it here.

Iceman
* Yes, I know this isn't strictly an MMO, but it the game does have an element of persistance to it.

I would like to see all of the aforementioned weaponry in game at appropriate times with appropriate damage/range/heat/recycle/tonnage/accuracy scaling so that each weapon is useful rather than never wanting to use a regular AC at all compared to say an LBX (which can fire regular AC shots as well as cluster ammunition, another cool thing that hasn't been represented by MW games, but ammo types are another discussion )

Considering the developers are trying to follow a 1:1 timeline with this game, you don't need much scaleability. This game will not be running for 100+ years, and I think the BT canon is up to like 3130+ by now, so I don't think they have a problem with running out of events. Rewriting history will probably not happen. Perhaps modifying slightly the course of some events so history is player-driven, maybe. Adding new different weapons (e.g. "IN 3051 THE ANTIMATTER PROTON BLASTER WAS INVENTED") will probably not happen. High-tech rare equipment that's slightly out of era possibly being discovered by a lucky Merc? Plausible.

Shalmyan Moonsong, on 23 January 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

DPS??? This is not WOW, or Star Wars, there is not going to be "Tanks" or "Healers" or "DPSers" or "Pet Classes" in this game, your toon is as good of a DPS as you can aim. Do you think this is going to be an MMO like WOW where you press your number keys 1-9 for your attacks, and all you have to do is sit there and let the computer figure it out?

That said, there are Autocannons old tech which is what are used by the Inner sphere in 3049, and there are Ultra Autocannons, (Lost tech for inner sphere rediscovered in 3058) Autocannons can not double fire.... Ultra Autocannons can... game is set in 3049... Ultra AC's become open market in 3058... any questions?

"This is not WOW" says the poster with a last name of "Moonsong" - you do realize "DPS" stands for "Damage per second" and is applicable to any game in any situation? He was talking about "Not every AC 10 is created equal" and I don't mean "OH I have the purple AC 10 with +30% damage, +20% reload time and +250 meter range compared to your green one," but like a TF2 item of "My AC10 fires 30 rounds per minute and does 10 damage each shot, but this other guy's AC10 fires 15 times per minute and does 20 damage each shot, therefore they have the same DPS but have different damage modifiers." Hell maybe they have different accuracy and heat too, but it's more of a player playstyle choice, not a "Need to gear up my Jenner with the superior cERML, gonna go raid Tukayyid again tonight."

[Garuss Acine]

I would have to say that the rate of fire should not be increased. however I do support different factions autocannons firing differently as is supported in the background, where one AC/5 can fire a single slug, while a different make fires 5 rounds in a burst that total to the same damage. this would allow players to further change up their play style, so if someone prefered a single round they could, or if they wanted to squeeze off a hail of smaller rounds in quick burst fires, in the end they do the same amount of damage, and take the same time to cycle,produce the same heat, as well as using the same single usage of ammo.

[Elizander]

Can we have an Ultra Ultra AC/20 then using those rules?

[Dlardrageth]

Elizander, on 24 January 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

Can we have an Ultra Ultra AC/20 then using those rules?

Only if it also gets unlimited ammo that is summoned up by the ammo fairy!

[Strum Wealh]

Elizander, on 24 January 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

Can we have an Ultra Ultra AC/20 then using those rules?

I was thinking something similar:
Standard ACs can use special munitions, specifically flak (canonically available) and flechette (not canonically available until 3055) rounds, making them a "poor man's LB-X AC".
Under the TacOps rule, Standard ACs can increase their ROF to around double its normal value, making them a "poor man's Ultra AC".

If we combine these, what we get is essentially an AC that can fire flak (or, eventually, flechette) rounds at ~2x the standard ROF... or a "poor man's Ultra LB-X AC", yes?

[Elizander]

If we're getting a repair system like WoT then bringing more expensive weapons would cause higher repairs. People might want to coast along with non-ER lasers/PPCs and regular ACs if the multiplier cost for repairs from using Ultras and ERs and Streaks are higher.

Just as an example, if you do a match with all regular weapons (non-ER, etc) your medium mech would earn 500,000 c-bills on a loss and if you totally got blown up your repair would be maybe 400,000 c-bills (just as an example, assuming you don't have to shell out 4,000,000 c-bills for a replacement). If you decked it out with ER Mediums and Ultra AC/5 then your repair bill would be around 750,000 c-bills so if you lost you'd automatically be in the negative.

Now in relation to this post if you wreck your own AC 20 by forcing it to go Ultra then it would go into your repair bill at the end of the fight.

Volume, on 23 January 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

"Need to gear up my Jenner with the superior cERML, gonna go raid Tukayyid again tonight."

Join my clan bro. We got Natasha Kerensky on farm.

Edited by Elizander, 24 January 2012 - 07:52 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Id- sort of like to see a balance situation with ACs that they are the choice of the really good pilots. They have much higher spike dps than lasers, but have other issues like jaming/overheating from firing too quick, ammo explosions, and limited ammo. Laser weapons would be the more consistent choice. Lower dps, but you can afford to miss and take those low probability shots.

[SMDMadCow]

Strum Wealh, on 24 January 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

If we combine these, what we get is essentially an AC that can fire flak (or, eventually, flechette) rounds at ~2x the standard ROF... or a "poor man's Ultra LB-X AC", yes?

Technically yes, BUT:
Shorter range from the special ammo
Half the shots per ton from the special ammo
High chance of jamming from rapid fire
Low chance of exploding from rapid fire
Double the heat generated
(On the TT) not a great amount of damage sine you have to roll on the cluster hits table.

The thing about the rapid fire and specialty ammo is risk vs reward.

Edited by SMDMadCow, 24 January 2012 - 10:54 AM.

[VYCanis]

has anyone here played any FPS (yeah i know its a dirty word) featuring a rapid alt-fire mode to a weapon?

For example, unreal tourney series' miniguns
or the pistol in crysis 1
or any game that let you choose between semi/burst/auto

you didn't really need any over the top jam possibilities. The firemodes themselves were self balancing.

Recoil, ammo consumption, and overall poor long range performance invariably meant that players most of the time would rely on the more conservative fire modes, because more often than not, firing extra fast was more trouble than it's worth. Usually they reserve rapid fire or automatic modes for when they knew they'd be in spitting range where fire rate trumps accuracy.

I'd rather see barrel overheating than jam chances, but if there were jam chances, it'd make more sense to have them start happening as the weapon itself starts to get damaged.

[whiskey tango foxtrot]

love the option of having rapid fire........... but i REALLY love the picture

[Graphite]

Volume, on 23 January 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

I don't see how people assumed it was "advanced" tech considering a regular AC is about as non-advanced as you can get. I think that people feel mixed about the rule because in MW and BT as they've been playing it, an AC does not fire twice with a chance to jam, it just fires once.

I don't see how they assumed that either, but they did: at least one person said "that can't happen until 3068" (paraphrasing), and at least one other said "no, I only want level 2 tech".

The rapid fire AC encompasses ALL BT time (where the standard AC existed), and applies to even the lowest tech level.

It's just a rule (official, optional) change, not a new weapon or tech. It would stop standard ACs from being second tier weapons.

Strum Wealh, on 24 January 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

I was thinking something similar:
Standard ACs can use special munitions, specifically flak (canonically available) and flechette (not canonically available until 3055) rounds, making them a "poor man's LB-X AC".
Under the TacOps rule, Standard ACs can increase their ROF to around double its normal value, making them a "poor man's Ultra AC".

If we combine these, what we get is essentially an AC that can fire flak (or, eventually, flechette) rounds at ~2x the standard ROF... or a "poor man's Ultra LB-X AC", yes?

Yes, but still not as good as either an Ultra or an LBX.

With the high risk of jamming the firing rate would effectively be (very roughly) about 1.5 x normal, not the 2x that the Ultra enjoys.

Both fletchette and flak only do half damage against mechs (and flechette won't be available until 2016!), so it still couldn't match an LBX there.


Basically this idea just says "standard ACs are generally made to look pretty undesirable by lasers, so let's increase their firing rate". It would still be official BT.

Edited by Graphite, 24 January 2012 - 05:10 PM.