35 replies to this topic

[Dlardrageth]

Yeach, on 28 January 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

I thought in TT, pulse lasers gave a +2 to Hit for increased accuracy?

So... if you made pulse lasers instantaenous and laser have travel time....

Well, yeah, in the TT they did give a to-hit-bonus, but... the TT is running a round-based model. To port that one 1:1 into MWO would mean relying rather heavily on RNG-based to-hit/damage mechanics.

Making pulse lasers hit perfectly the aim and normal lasers have more of a strafing mechanism would turn pulse lasers somewhat overpowered, I think. Ideally the pulse lasers would have a slight advantage by either dispersed "laser bolts" (covering a slightly bigger target area) or alternatively have normal lasers rely to stay on target for an extra second or something. The problem with assigning the latter "travel time" after shooting is, that it might lead to a lot of complete misses right away, which would really gimp them in comparison. IMHO.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 28 January 2012 - 02:31 PM.

[Volkite]

@Dlardrageth
Yeah, haha, it was, admittedly a misquote on my behalf. But as I mean, the 'stuttering' is simply firing the lasers in that rapid succession akin to a burst fire. But as for my saying the graphic should be the same, I meant in comparison to MW4. The Pulse laser was a single hit that had a graphic of blobs of laser light, which just seems wrong. Using the same graphic for pulse lasers as non-pulse makes sense IMO for the nature of light and that no matter how rapidly you switch it on and off, unless you're playing Armoured Core or MW2, it SHOULD still look like 1 beam.
Otherwise I agree wholeheartedly.

Edited by Merovigian, 29 January 2012 - 12:11 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

http://en.wikipedia....ulsed_operation

I want this kind of Pulse Laser
imagine managing total energy put in, pulse variance, and energy/1 pulse
the upper limit would be the full heat contingent of the model (so 6 heat for 1 med pulse laser etc)

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 30 January 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 30 January 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....ulsed_operation

I want this kind of Pulse Laser
imagine managing total energy put in, pulse variance, and energy/1 pulse
the upper limit would be the full heat contingent of the model (so 6 heat for 1 med pulse laser etc)

That sounds kinda like the variable speed pulse lasers ("Unlike the Snub-Nose PPC, which fires a single bolt of energy, the modified pulse laser system can alter the speed of the pulses fired based on the distance to the target.") developed by the Word of Blake in 3070...

[Strum Wealh]

MaddMaxx, on 27 January 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

I do like the "Hold Trigger" with the Damage is applied over time but so goes the Heat level. Why not allow the Pilot to hold the trigger down as long as they want.

I'm not proposing that they (or, rather, we) couldn't "hold the trigger down as long as they (we) want".

Let's take three of the Medium Laser variants:

• 1.0-to-1.5-second-duration beams at 2.5-second intervals with 1.25 units of damage and 0.75 units of heat per beam
  
• 1.0-to-1.5-second-duration beams at 5.0-second intervals with 2.50 units of damage and 1.50 units of heat per beam
  
• 1.0-to-1.5-second-duration beams at 10.0-second intervals with 5.00 units of damage and 3.00 units of heat per beam

and mount them in quartets on a 'Mech (say, a -C1 Catapult), such that "Catapult 01" is carrying a quartet of "Medium Laser 01" (2.5-second recycle), "Catapult 02" is carrying a quartet of "Medium Laser 02" (5.0-second recycle), and "Catapult 03" is carrying a quartet of "Medium Laser 03" (10.0-second recycle). The three 'Mechs are otherwise identical standard -C1 Catapults.

Let's say that each pilot pulls and holds the trigger on the laser group for exactly 20 seconds.
After 20 seconds of continuous fire:

• Each of Catapult 01's lasers would have fired 8 times (20 seconds of firing time / 2.5 seconds from the beginning of one salvo to the beginning of the next), with each laser dealing 1.25 units of heat to the target and generating 0.75 units of heat for the firing 'Mech (Catapult 01) with each of the 8 firings. Together, the four lasers of Catapult 01, continuously firing for 20 seconds as one group, would have dealt 40 damage (1.25 damage/salvo * 8 salvos/laser * 4 lasers) to the target and generated 24 heat (0.75 heat/salvo * 8 salvos/laser * 4 lasers) for Catapult 01.
  
• Each of Catapult 02's lasers would have fired 4 times (20 seconds of firing time / 5.0 seconds from the beginning of one salvo to the beginning of the next), with each laser dealing 2.50 units of heat to the target and generating 1.50 units of heat for the firing 'Mech (Catapult 02) with each of the 4 firings. Together, the four lasers of Catapult 02, continuously firing for 20 seconds as one group, would have dealt 40 damage (2.50 damage/salvo * 4 salvos/laser * 4 lasers) to the target and generated 24 heat (1.50 heat/salvo * 4 salvos/laser * 4 lasers) for Catapult 02.
  
• Each of Catapult 03's lasers would have fired 2 times (20 seconds of firing time / 10.0 seconds from the beginning of one salvo to the beginning of the next), with each laser dealing 5.00 units of heat to the target and generating 3.00 units of heat for the firing 'Mech (Catapult 03) with each of the 2 firings. Together, the four lasers of Catapult 03, continuously firing for 20 seconds as one group, would have dealt 40 damage (5.00 damage/salvo * 2 salvos/laser * 4 lasers) to the target and generated 24 heat (3.00 heat/salvo * 2 salvos/laser * 4 lasers) for Catapult 03.

As such, no one of my proposed versions of the medium laser is inherently inferior or superior to any of the others proposed versions, but having different versions like this would allow one to fill different roles with "the same weapon".
For example, the high-ROF/low-damage-per-salvo/low-instantaneous-heat MedLas might be better for continuous suppression fire or decoy or anti-personnel work, while the low-ROF/high-damage-per-salvo/high-instantaneous-heat MedLas might be better for stealthy ambushers and guerrilla tactics that encourage/require one to hit hard and fade away rather than to necessarily "slug it out".

That kind of flexibility and distinction/specialization between otherwise identical 'Mechs, and emphasis on instantaneous as well as gradual heat build-up, is part of why I dearly hope that the Devs would implement "different-but-equivalent" models of each weapon...

MaddMaxx, on 27 January 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

If holding it for 10 seconds shuts the Mech down due to Heat so be it, but the damage applied would be substantial (assuming you kept the Beam on the target the whole time.

The cool down time would assure a long wait before firing for another long burst.

Agreed.
That's part of the point...

[MaddMaxx]

Strum Wealh, on 30 January 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

I'm not proposing that they (or, rather, we) couldn't "hold the trigger down as long as they (we) want".

Let's take three of the Medium Laser variants:

• 1.0-to-1.5-second-duration beams at 2.5-second intervals with 1.25 units of damage and 0.75 units of heat per beam
  
• 1.0-to-1.5-second-duration beams at 5.0-second intervals with 2.50 units of damage and 1.50 units of heat per beam
  
• 1.0-to-1.5-second-duration beams at 10.0-second intervals with 5.00 units of damage and 3.00 units of heat per beam

and mount them in quartets on a 'Mech (say, a -C1 Catapult), such that "Catapult 01" is carrying a quartet of "Medium Laser 01" (2.5-second recycle), "Catapult 02" is carrying a quartet of "Medium Laser 02" (5.0-second recycle), and "Catapult 03" is carrying a quartet of "Medium Laser 03" (10.0-second recycle). The three 'Mechs are otherwise identical standard -C1 Catapults.





Let's say that each pilot pulls and holds the trigger on the laser group for exactly 20 seconds.
After 20 seconds of continuous fire:

• Each of Catapult 01's lasers would have fired 8 times (20 seconds of firing time / 2.5 seconds from the beginning of one salvo to the beginning of the next), with each laser dealing 1.25 units of heat to the target and generating 0.75 units of heat for the firing 'Mech (Catapult 01) with each of the 8 firings. Together, the four lasers of Catapult 01, continuously firing for 20 seconds as one group, would have dealt 40 damage (1.25 damage/salvo * 8 salvos/laser * 4 lasers) to the target and generated 24 heat (0.75 heat/salvo * 8 salvos/laser * 4 lasers) for Catapult 01.
  
• Each of Catapult 02's lasers would have fired 4 times (20 seconds of firing time / 5.0 seconds from the beginning of one salvo to the beginning of the next), with each laser dealing 2.50 units of heat to the target and generating 1.50 units of heat for the firing 'Mech (Catapult 02) with each of the 4 firings. Together, the four lasers of Catapult 02, continuously firing for 20 seconds as one group, would have dealt 40 damage (2.50 damage/salvo * 4 salvos/laser * 4 lasers) to the target and generated 24 heat (1.50 heat/salvo * 4 salvos/laser * 4 lasers) for Catapult 02.
  
• Each of Catapult 03's lasers would have fired 2 times (20 seconds of firing time / 10.0 seconds from the beginning of one salvo to the beginning of the next), with each laser dealing 5.00 units of heat to the target and generating 3.00 units of heat for the firing 'Mech (Catapult 03) with each of the 2 firings. Together, the four lasers of Catapult 03, continuously firing for 20 seconds as one group, would have dealt 40 damage (5.00 damage/salvo * 2 salvos/laser * 4 lasers) to the target and generated 24 heat (3.00 heat/salvo * 2 salvos/laser * 4 lasers) for Catapult 03.

As such, no one of my proposed versions of the medium laser is inherently inferior or superior to any of the others proposed versions, but having different versions like this would allow one to fill different roles with "the same weapon".




For example, the high-ROF/low-damage-per-salvo/low-instantaneous-heat MedLas might be better for continuous suppression fire or decoy or anti-personnel work, while the low-ROF/high-damage-per-salvo/high-instantaneous-heat MedLas might be better for stealthy ambushers and guerrilla tactics that encourage/require one to hit hard and fade away rather than to necessarily "slug it out".

That kind of flexibility and distinction/specialization between otherwise identical 'Mechs, and emphasis on instantaneous as well as gradual heat build-up, is part of why I dearly hope that the Devs would implement "different-but-equivalent" models of each weapon...

Agreed.
That's part of the point...

I like it but was thinking about minimal recycle times so the Beam would be active the whole time the trigger was pulled and damage applied is based on "on target time", with heat building in direct proportion to the "on time" or trigger down time. Of course that does change the default mechanic of the "recharge" but why not a direct feed of power to the Laser, while the Trigger is pulled.

The thought process here is a Pilot would not need 4 Lasers, just 1 that could be fired constantly before needing/forcing a cool down cycle. That way any Pilot could hit hard over time, or burst and fade, depending on the situation at hand.

If we set up the heat and damage over time parameters as you have, then it would be at the Pilots discretion as to how long the Laser fires, and how well he/she can keep it on the target and have to deal with the heat as a direct use of said weapon, not a bunch of weapons of the same type.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 30 January 2012 - 11:21 AM.

[wolf74]

I see some nice points and some points I disagree with. Here are my thoughts on laser VS pulse lasers.

Lasers:
I would set a DPS value to Laser in General. This DPS Value determines how long the beam has to last. The Time it takes to discharge the weapon you divide the heat over that same time.

AKA if the DPS value for Lasers is three damage a second:
Small Laser would last 1sec in beam time to do 3 damage, 1 heat a sec
Medium Laser would last 1.67sec beam time to do 5 damage, 1.8heat a sec
Large Laser would last 2.67sec beam time to do 8 damage, 3heat a sec or 4.5heat a sec for ER version.
Once the weapon trigger is pulled it does a full discharge before starting a recharge cycle. (See my post about Solaris VII giving us a Cycle Time windows.)

Pulse Lasers: (have two parts here)
Pulse Laser also has a DPS value set a bit Higher than Normal Lasers. But the weapon only discharge as the Trigger is held (You can see this in AT1: BT). But do not recharge until the weapon energy bank is totally discharged.

2^nd part: a minor bit off topic.
If the mechs weapons convergence is Rader or Player set. The Pulse laser could also have a +-10m Convergence swing to make sure you have a better change on landing some of the beam on Target. (See 4medium laser VS AC 20 thread for more on these and about 15 other threads too.)

Now Back to Laser VS Pulse Laser.

[Steel Talon]

In MW:LL pulse lasers have slightly higer damage per burst than normal lasers & generate more heat
+ there is pulse laser witch u can constantly fire unless it overheats ( starts with X...)

[Strum Wealh]

steel talon, on 30 January 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

In MW:LL pulse lasers have slightly higer damage per burst than normal lasers & generate more heat
+ there is pulse laser witch u can constantly fire unless it overheats ( starts with X...)

Pulse lasers normally (that is, canonically) produce slightly more damage and slightly more heat.
They also tend to be heavier than their normal and ER counterparts.

Also, on X-Pulse Lasers:

Quote

X-Pulse Lasers are an attempt by Federated Commonwealth technicians to increase the range of Pulse Lasers to compete with the longer ranges of similar Clan models. X-Pulse lasers are not an new weapon per se, but an upgrade to Pulse Lasers that pushes extra energy through the system in order to extend the range. X-Pulse lasers also build up tremendous heat but this has been considered a necessary drawback for their extended range. The Large, Medium, and Small X-Pulse Lasers are currently still in the prototype stage.

They're high-heat, longer-ranged pulse lasers that otherwise function identically (same damage per unit time, same ROF, same weight, same volume) as their normal counterparts, and they're not canonically available until 3057.

[Steel Talon]

Strum Wealh, on 30 January 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Also, on X-Pulse Lasers:

They're high-heat, longer-ranged pulse lasers that otherwise function identically (same damage per unit time, same ROF, same weight, same volume) as their normal counterparts, and they're not canonically available until 3057.

Strum Wealh, on 30 January 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Pulse lasers normally (that is, canonically) produce slightly more damage and slightly more heat.
They also tend to be heavier than their normal and ER counterparts.

Also, on X-Pulse Lasers:

They're high-heat, longer-ranged pulse lasers that otherwise function identically (same damage per unit time, same ROF, same weight, same volume) as their normal counterparts, and they're not canonically available until 3057.

they has no cooldown compared to normal pulse
http://wiki.mechlivi...=X-Pulse_Lasers
[color=#FFFFFF]
X-Pulse Lasers work in much the same way as standard Pulse Lasers with one major difference: they do not require a cool down time and thus can be fired indefinitely, making them effective brawling weapons since their high rate of fire gives them an impressive DPS. In addition, the X-Pulse Lasers have the same effective range as Standard Beam Lasers, giving them a slight edge in range as well. Because of the high rate of fire, X-Pulse Lasers can even be competent anti-Battle Armor weapons.[/color]
[color=#FFFFFF]
In general terms an X-Pulse Laser is more powerful than both a Pulse Laser or a Standard Beam Laser of similar type. The main problem with X-Pulse Lasers is that it is very easy to generate dangerous heat levels with sustained firing -- something that is especially tempting during intense fire fights. When heavily used it is best to keep an eye on the unit's heat, and to switch to controlled bursts when nearing red line.[/color]
[color=#FFFFFF]
Only Inner Sphere units mount X-Pulse Lasers.[/color]

[Yeach]

Dlardrageth, on 28 January 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

Well, yeah, in the TT they did give a to-hit-bonus, but... the TT is running a round-based model. To port that one 1:1 into MWO would mean relying rather heavily on RNG-based to-hit/damage mechanics.

Which I never understood in mechwarrior?
Isn't hitting a target consistently (ie more accurately on the same spot) much easier with ONE concentrated burst rather than TWO or more bursts like the mechwarrior depict?

[Mautty the Bobcat]

I would personally prefer the pulse laser to work like a canon pulse laser. The graphical representation is up for debate, but as for the mechanic, I believe the pulse laser should 'pulse', firing a rapid succession of lasers at the target and having to hit for each one, the pulses should be dispersed across a 'fire time' and the damage should be split between the individual beams of the 'burst' firing. The graphical representation could be similar to that of a standard laser, but 'flashing' or occurring and then disappearing rapidly as many time as it fire during its firing time before recycling.

This would allow a pulse laser to act like an actual pulse laser. The suggestion of having it hit 1 spot on the mech and deal all its damage to that spot basically nullifies the laser's purpose and it shouldn't even be included because then its just a slightly upgraded version of a REGULAR laser. Oh wait, those exist...they're called HEAVY Lasers.... >.>

Laser also have an instantaneous travel already, as you can see with any small, medium, or large standard laser. The purpose of the Pulse Laser, is that if you start it, hit twice, and then get rocked, 2-3 pulses may be knocked off target before you can correct, but out of all the pulses your laser fired, only 2-3 of those did not hit and therefore did not cause damage. This mean that all the pulses of the laser that DID hit, also did damage to the point they hit. This allow that at least some of the laser's damage will occur to the enemy mech if your reticule is on his at some point.


As for the 1 shot is easier to hit with than multiple shots statement. Yes and no, you can miss with a single shot relatively easy, especially if piranha do well on it. If you miss with a medium laser, you have to wait for recycle. If you miss once with a Medium Pulse, it still has a chance to hit several more times. On top of that the pulse laser will recycle faster, thus allowing you more chance to hit your target.

If you really don't think you can hit the target to justify using it, then take a regular laser, its NOT that hard...

Edited by Mautty the Bobcat, 09 February 2012 - 04:53 AM.

[Outlaw Wolf]

Personally I would like to see the laser style of either MW2 / MechCommander. A standard laser should just fire a single beam either over an instant or a brief period, where as a pulse laser would fire at very quick intervals increasing heat generation but allowing for rapid firing.

[Ragz]

i don't know if this was mentioned, i played the hell out of mw2, and it became common knowledge amongst friends that though the if a pulse missed, that was a hit you missed (it broke your beam into seperate hits). so you could still do far more damage with a regular laser than a pulse, since you had to make sure every "pulse" hit the same mark.

edit- Not each beam doing full weapon damage but parts of it. so a 5 damage pulse shot that connects once was 1.some fraction damage.

Edited by Ragz, 31 January 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[Omniverous]

I figured this.

Normal Lasers. Normal dmg.
Pulse Lasers. slight increase in dmg. plus added chance for critical because of the punch effect of it being a pulse.

Targeting i have no clue about. of course there should be some factor here so that people with better aim benefit. But shouldn't that be the same for both pulse and non-pulse?

Is there even a chance for crital hits with lasers?

[KalashnikovAlpha]

So... I have a Raven 3L, should I use 3 Med Lasers, or 2 PMed Lasers...