52 replies to this topic

[Andrew Harvey]

jack gallows, on 01 November 2011 - 02:35 PM, said:

Just don't remember anyone using anything remotely like the Clan tech for the longest time, even in the novels, until the Clans actually invaded. No pulse tech, no Gauss tech, no double heat sink, LB/X or Ultra tech, none of it. Even Phelan Kell, in one of the best equipped merc units of the time didn't have any of this when he was taken by Clan Wolf in the early fighting of the Invasion. They point out quite often how utterly superior clan tech is, and how surprised they are when they are getting slammed by enemy fire WAAAY out of range and at a much higher rate of fire then an IS mech could produce.

I was sure I'd seen either the Grand Dragon or upgraded Panther in 'Heir to the Dragon' or one of the other pre-invasion books. I probably just need to re-read them. You have a point about the range; the Clan ER Large Laser has a severe range advantage, even over the IS ER Large Laser. You're probably right about the scarcity of new-tech. Not seeing it mentioned, even in an Elite Mercenary unit like the Kell Hounds, is an important sign. I just hope that it won't all be completely 'off-limits' before the Clan Invasion begins.

Edited by andrew harvey, 01 November 2011 - 03:00 PM.

[Jack Gallows]

I do hope it's off limits, as it makes acquiring such tech from victories that much sweater and more important. IS is going to have to bring it's A game to fights when the Clans first invade.

The Grand Dragon's only real new tech is the XL engine and ER PPCs, but as has been stated a lot of "lostech" has been retconed into the canon/etc as things dragged on. The IS ER PPC having been around since 3037 ONLY appeared once the Technical Readout 3058 hit, quite a while after the Clan Invasion actually happened.

I certainly don't remember hearing much of either of those before the Clans hit, but I am not going to be upset if some technology is made available before/as the Clans Invade.

[Tyra]

It occurs to me with the way the canon goes, makes it REALLY easy to come up with updates and content expansions.

[Andrew Harvey]

I'm not saying I want new-tech everywhere, but I don't think that it'd be too intrusive to have rare (maybe only 1-in-50 players get offered the mission), high-risk & skill intensive missions that reward 100% completion of objective with a single piece of new-tech. There wouldn't be enough of the equipment to make a difference in the overall Invasion, but it'd make a difference to the people that were able to earn them.

[DoubleD]

Whether there is none of it or some in very small batches, I am fine either way. Though if we are going for preference here, I would like having smatterings of advanced tech here and there providing a player is willing to jump through a fair amount of hoops to obtain it. Not enough for it to be "common."

[avatar]

We don't know how the game economy goes, but if we have Lostech (or "modern" equivalents) available, it would likely make sense to have some kind free economy. Sure, IS engineers know how to make those, but they're not making very many and you need to either kick or lick some serious **** until anyone agrees to sell you the new good stuff. Might have some on the black market, but there the supply is even more limited. And knowing what the demand will be, prices will adjust accordingly.

As such, the faucets for advanced tech would be the Great Houses or industry giants (depending if they're in as a possible employer) and possibly some kind of SLDF cache objective raids. ("A cache of Lostech has been located on the world X. The party holding the site for time T will be able to salvage the cache.") The NPC source offers a somewhat fixed price, the cache belongs to the one who can hold it, and once the equipment has passed to players, it is up to the players whether or not they will put it up for sale on the free market. As for tech sinks, it's called an Urbanmech shooting an engine critical for your just-finished dream machine.

Edited by avatar, 01 November 2011 - 04:44 PM.

[Jack Gallows]

I'm more worried about the idea of people getting an upperhand on other players before the Clans hit, in terms of having access to tech that others can't really match. I suppose it's not a huge problem, as you'd not really run into said folks often (and they may not have a good team, etc.) but it seems like it should result from mostly conflict with the clans rather then trying to hoard it before hand because out of universe you already know the clans are coming.

Don't hate the idea of finding lostech, or salvaging it from a mech that had it already (maybe someone found an old SLDF mech), but not really something being produced by the IS. Maybe I'm old fashioned.

[Jack Gallows]

Though, you do bring up a good point. Some of the tech really doesn't work well without more of the higher tech stuff. ER PPC's generate a LOT of heat, and without double heat sinks....well you might be more gimping yourself then anything unless it's on a bigger mech. Same for the XL engine, takes up more critical space even with it being lighter, which makes it easier to expose someone using only standard armor.

[Reoh]

Given the timeline the technology is known and available, but like people have said they dissemination of that knowledge and the mediocre supply of the tech means that the majority of the IS just won't be rolling with it in their kits. Even if you could kit with them, do you really wanna risk having them blown away on every mission? Come to think of it, having to repair 'Mechs will be good for the economy. Just hope you don't end up dispossesed.

[BabyHewey]

I think the idea of unbalanced numbers would be interesting. PVP with 5v3 or 7v5 where the innerspere team had more units. Additionally you could limit the Clan teams to a min level. Now that I think about it you would really want a two lances of innerspere(8 mechs) vs. 5 Clan mechs. innerspere team could be made up of a wider range of levels, and the clan would have a min level to start. If we look at LoL for insperation they have an ranking system based around level/wins/kills that helps balances matches. If this was done where there was a level 30 cap and players had to reach at least level 25 before unlocking the Clan side and then also have players make at least level 20 before that can play against the Clan that would add for some ballance, yet keep the individual clan mechs at a higher power level than innerspere. I think this would offer the best of both worlds in terms of game play in a match enviroment. Of course, with this type of thing we really are looking at more of a Battle arena(MOBA) than a MMO.

Now if we are just going out and running around like in WoW, then I have no idea how that would even work with Mechs.

Edited by BabyHewey, 02 November 2011 - 06:00 AM.

[Infine]

Ramboing clans will ruin this game. Let's assume there's about even numbers of diehard IS and Clan fans (though I highly doubt that, most likely there are more clanners). Then there are beginners who don't care about lore, affilation and all that stuff. 95% of them just want to pwn. 5% are hardcore mazos that like "challenge". What you get is after sufficent time has passed and everyone and their dog got access to the clan side, instead of persistend world you will have a small and shrinking (because even the most loyal supporter has only that much patience of being on the recieving end of a Rambo rampage all the time) population of IS fans and hordes of Timber Wolfs circlejerking in endless clan trials.
The idea of quantity side VS quality side where you can eventually get into the second one is a pyramid scheme and as such has a predictable outcome.

[Creel]

Yes, Comstar had a stock of SL era tech, but that tech was still inferior to the clan designs, was extremely limited in quantity, and was largely restricted to Comstar units.

Advanced tech didn't start leaking out heavily until after the Jaime summoned the scions of the great houses to the conference on outreach in 3051, and didn't go into mass production until 3055.

[Blackjack Jones]

Infine, on 02 November 2011 - 06:37 AM, said:

Ramboing clans will ruin this game. Let's assume there's about even numbers of diehard IS and Clan fans (though I highly doubt that, most likely there are more clanners). Then there are beginners who don't care about lore, affilation and all that stuff. 95% of them just want to pwn. 5% are hardcore mazos that like "challenge". What you get is after sufficent time has passed and everyone and their dog got access to the clan side, instead of persistend world you will have a small and shrinking (because even the most loyal supporter has only that much patience of being on the recieving end of a Rambo rampage all the time) population of IS fans and hordes of Timber Wolfs circlejerking in endless clan trials.
The idea of quantity side VS quality side where you can eventually get into the second one is a pyramid scheme and as such has a predictable outcome.

There is concern there, but keep in mind a few things.

-There's most likely going to be some system in place to keep the level of conquest from going completely off the rails,
as I don't think PGI is going to be able to handle something that throws the game completely off canon events-
like say the Clans making it all the way to Terra, or completely over running the DC. Probably increasing level of
difficulty the further you get outside canon, at the very least.

-There's probably going to be fights outside the Clan invasion corridor. Setting up shop on the LC/FWL border (or the FS/CC and FS/DC borders) pretty much negates having to fight the Clans. Having all the toys/numbers in the world doesn't help if not enough people come to fight you- look at Horde/Alliance number balance issues in WoW for instance. I can foresee a lot of Clan players twiddling their thumbs waiting to fight an IS force.

Edited by blackjack jones, 02 November 2011 - 07:12 AM.

[Marauder3D]

Infine, on 02 November 2011 - 06:37 AM, said:

Ramboing clans will ruin this game. Let's assume there's about even numbers of diehard IS and Clan fans (though I highly doubt that, most likely there are more clanners). Then there are beginners who don't care about lore, affilation and all that stuff. 95% of them just want to pwn.

There are plenty of Crusaders out there that will fight with Zellbrigen. Most of the invading clans, except perhaps the savashri Wolves, will bid, cut down forces, and engage appropriately. Seek us out, and we will grant you the death of a warrior.

~SJ~ [Cadet] Mad3D

/RP off

In any game, there will be the kiddos with no jobs, who play 24/7 to get the uber teckie items. It's annoying. However, as an aging fanbase, may of us BT lovers are in our late 20's all the way into our 50's, and might be a bit more fun to play with/against than you imagine.

If you have the time/inclination, check out Mechwarrior: Living Legends. Steep learning curve, but highly enjoyable.

[Infine]

blackjack jones, on 02 November 2011 - 07:10 AM, said:

There is concern there, but keep in mind a few things.

-There's most likely going to be some system in place to keep the level of conquest from going completely off the rails,
as I don't think PGI is going to be able to handle something that throws the game completely off canon events-
like say the Clans making it all the way to Terra, or completely over running the DC. Probably increasing level of
difficulty the further you get outside canon, at the very least.

-There's probably going to be fights outside the Clan invasion corridor. Setting up shop on the LC/FWL border (or the FS/CC and FS/DC borders) pretty much negates having to fight the Clans. Having all the toys/numbers in the world doesn't help if not enough people come to fight you- look at Horde/Alliance number balance issues in WoW for instance. I can foresee a lot of Clan players twiddling their thumbs waiting to fight an IS force.

They won't be twiddling their thumbs, they'll be batchalling over fights and doing trials of position and all that funny stuff. It's still a sad thing. Once upon a time I was playing in an offline (read LAN party) local MW league. As hardcore as it gets (TRO configs, hello). That's exactly what was going on. Over time we were getting more and more players converting to the dark^Wclan side until they were happily trialing with each other and 3 of us hardcore spheroids were sitting in a corner playing tabletop. I don't want to have that experience ever again (not tabletop, being the Last Of Own Kind).

Edited by Infine, 02 November 2011 - 07:38 AM.

[Jack Gallows]

Infine, on 02 November 2011 - 07:35 AM, said:

They won't be twiddling their thumbs, they'll be batchalling over fights and doing trials of position and all that funny stuff. It's still a sad thing. Once upon a time I was playing in an offline (read LAN party) local MW league. As hardcore as it gets (TRO configs, hello). That's exactly what was going on. Over time we were getting more and more players converting to the dark^Wclan side until they were happily trialing with each other and 3 of us hardcore spheroids were sitting in a corner playing tabletop. I don't want to have that experience ever again (not tabletop, being the Last Of Own Kind).

Needs to be incentive for both sides, like how both the Clan and IS started making weapons systems/etc that the other doesn't field down the line.

In the beginning though, IS really shouldn't have access to much lostech or anything like that. Might have to make a few concessions due to balance.

[JzT Dolomite]

1453-R, on 01 November 2011 - 01:22 PM, said:

That depends entirely on how they work the Invasion. Do some players get to work in Stars with Invasion-era OmniMechs against my lances of Lethal Heritage-era IS tech? I like a challenge as much as the next guy, but let's face it - I'm not Kai Allard-Liao, nor Phelan Kell, and I'm going to assume with reasonable confidence that none of you are, either.

I love the BattleTech lore, I grew up on it, but the minute some little twelve year old ******* in a Timber Wolf gets to run roughshod over my entire lance because he's got twice the armor and three times the firepower of any machine in my unit without any mobility loss, I guarantee I'm gonna nerdrage. There's staying true to the lore, and then there's game balance. We don't have GMs to run the Clanners properly in an MMO.

But remeber the first trick to beating a clanner is negating that longrange advantage; yea it's still BRUTAL but its a closer fight.

[JzT Dolomite]

BabyHewey, on 02 November 2011 - 05:59 AM, said:

I think the idea of unbalanced numbers would be interesting. PVP with 5v3 or 7v5 where the innerspere team had more units. Additionally you could limit the Clan teams to a min level. Now that I think about it you would really want a two lances of innerspere(8 mechs) vs. 5 Clan mechs. innerspere team could be made up of a wider range of levels, and the clan would have a min level to start. If we look at LoL for insperation they have an ranking system based around level/wins/kills that helps balances matches. If this was done where there was a level 30 cap and players had to reach at least level 25 before unlocking the Clan side and then also have players make at least level 20 before that can play against the Clan that would add for some ballance, yet keep the individual clan mechs at a higher power level than innerspere. I think this would offer the best of both worlds in terms of game play in a match enviroment. Of course, with this type of thing we really are looking at more of a Battle arena(MOBA) than a MMO.

Now if we are just going out and running around like in WoW, then I have no idea how that would even work with Mechs.

Actually its would have to be 12 to 5 to reflect HOW BADLY they had the advantage over the IS. Whenever there was a victory over the clans in the beginning the IS had 4 to 1 odds over them and in the case of Luthien barely won even with that. If your gonna play a clanner in the beginning you had better be ready for overwhelming odds and know what you are doing, cause if you don't there is a very real threat that the Invasion will ***** up hard cause the IS pilots will take full advange of their numbers.

[Hairlok]

it will come down to game play ......
Will you be a part of a IS team or a lone wolf clanner ?
Clan will have better weaponry but will they have access/use of the networking aspect of the game play..

[Rodney28021]

To determine tech availability, you could go by the information in the latest Catalyst Classic Battletech sourcebooks : Battletech A Time of War, Tactical Operations, Tech Manual, Total Warfare, Strategic Operations. Or use the older sourcebooks. I have them but have not checked.

As for Clan tech vs Inner sphere tech. The IS will need to field more mechs and play more dirty tricks while the clans should be limited in their numbers of mechs engaged. Once the Clans factions are released in MWO, the devs need to develope incentives to keep players in the Inner Sphere and maybe limit the amount of players able to be clanners. Maybe make Clans a Subscription only usable.

Edited by Rodney28021, 06 June 2012 - 07:29 AM.