24 replies to this topic

[TANTE EMMA]

Aleksandr Kerensky has nothing to do with the original founding of the Clans, it was Niklas, his older son who established clan society....and he was well, let me put it this way: a nutbag sort of. The Crusaders believe in ruling the IS.

Crusader Clans were a political alliance of Clans who believed that Aleksandr Kerensky's Hidden Hope Doctrine espoused the descendants of the Star League in Exile returning to the Inner Sphere to conquer it and, thus, save it from itself. Though members have changed over the years, Clan Jade Falcon led the bloc along with the traditionally Crusader Hell's Horses, Star Adders, Smoke Jaguars, Ice Hellions and Blood Spirits. The majority of Clan Fire Mandrill's Kindraa are Crusader, so that Clan usually is as well, while Clan Wolf became a Crusader Clan after it was reborn following the Refusal War. After the Clan Civil War, distinctions between Warden and Crusader became much less important.

source: sarna.net

"Return to the Inner Sphere is impossible for us. Our heritage and our convictions are different from those we left behind. The greed of the five Great Houses and the Council Lords is a disease..." --- Aleksandr Kerensy General Order 137

Edited by Noakei Siegel, 14 August 2012 - 08:05 PM.

[Sidney]

First, Sarna is a fan based Wiki.

It's written by fans- and is thus subject to:

- Bias. Usually in favor of the Wardens, because they're 'good guys' (that have children regularly kill eachother, abolished love and compassion from its top ranks, and oppresses and abuses its people, but I digress)

I mean, have you seen the writeup of (Vlad's) Clan Wolf versus Clan Wolf (in Exile)? It outright states that it's "Clan Jade Wolf" with a new name.

Both the novels Malicious Intent and Field Manual: Crusader Clans outright state that Vlad recreated Clan Wolf and it's completely seperate of 'Jade Wolf'. He in fact states 'I create a new Clan' before saying 'We are once again Clan Wolf'.

But the "Jade Wolf" moniker is often stated as fact by fans who dislike Vlad-

And that's ignoring the fanfiction that was mixed in with canon- though I will credit the Sarna group with doing their best to move that out of canon.

And,
- Furthermore, it's a summary. That quote from Sarna is couple of sentences out of a whole paragraph. It's from Pages 75 and 76 of Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans. The section goes on to point out that the Crusaders also ignore the rest of the Hidden Doctrine- which the Wardens use to justify their position.

Sarna actually mentions it, but doesn't quote it under the 'Warden' section. Which also claims the Wardens use Aleksandr, not Nicholas. The quote is:

Quote

"Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, our children, or our children's children will return to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankin's quest for the stars." --Aleksandr Kerensky

That is the Warden philosophy. The 'perhaps' return when the Inner Sphere is ready and not before. To serve and protect and guide. The Wardens, to my knowledge, don't quote Nicholas at all.

Probably because he created the Clans to go back and sack Terra.

Operation Revival is a just a big copy and paste job of what Nicholas decreed for Operation Klondike: A military Campaign where the Clans competed against eachother to conquer the Pentagon worlds to save them from war ...sound familiar?

Furthermore, the whole point of the Clans is for them to compete and become stronger so they can go back liberate by force. Just like Klondike- and just like Revival.

Which is contrary to what Aleksandr was all about. He took the SLDF away from the Inner Sphere instead of holding onto Terra. His whole point is that the situation in the Inner Sphere is -hopeless- and it's futile to return until the Inner Sphere is ready to give up war. That's what the Hidden Doctrine -is-.

Using a big stick to make the House Lords play nice is Nicholas who decided that warfare is ingrained in human nature and cannot- and will not- stop...so the Clans need to spank the House Lords so they'll behave.

Noakei Siegel, on 14 August 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

Aleksandr Kerensky has nothing to do with the original founding of the Clans, it was Niklas, his older son who established clan society....and he was well, let me put it this way: a nutbag sort of. The Crusaders believe in ruling the IS.

I don't mean to be a jerk but-

I'm well aware about all three Kerenskys. Aleksandr, Nicholas and Andery.

I've read the books.

Have you?

I only ask because I already pointed out that I've read the books and found them to be quite different than common misconceptions that are thrown about by some fans on the Internet.

And you- instead of giving me an answer- chastise me for being ignorant and point me to a fan based community project that, at best, summarizes the fiction I've read.

Edited by Sidney, 15 August 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[Sidney]

Rather than edit the previous post, I'd like to add this addendum, as it's rambly enough as is:

I just checked Warriors of Kerensky which is what most of Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans borrows from. Phelan does attribute a 'ward the Inner Sphere until the Star League is reborn' quote to Nicholas that the Wardens appareIntly use.

However, he does acknoledge he is biased. And as we know, Nicholas said a lot of conflicting things in Betrayals of Ideals.

The fact is, both camps use Aleksandr's Hidden Hope Doctrine- and our sources come from Phelan on this, who admits bias.

They both also use Nicholas. One Phelan points out in Warriors of Kerensky. The other is in the Jade Falcon Sourcebook where Khan Crichell came up on the concept of the 'ilClan' from Nicholas' own diaries.

I'd like to point to my earlier post the other day that contains a passage of the Clan Wolf Remembrance from when Nicholas was alive and well- and ilKhan.

The Clan that was the leader of the Wardens has in its Remembrance a passage that describes the Clans returning to the Inner Sphere, cutting down the 'barbarians' and retaking Terra...and the Khan of the very Clan that takes Terra is supposed to become the new First Lord of a restored Star League.

[TANTE EMMA]

Sidney, on 15 August 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

I've read the books.

Have you?

I only ask because I already pointed out that I've read the books and found them to be quite different than common misconceptions that are thrown about by some fans on the Internet.

And you- instead of giving me an answer- chastise me for being ignorant and point me to a fan based community project that, at best, summarizes the fiction I've read.

I sure did all of the books to be precise. And I did not call you ignorant at all, the Quote of Aleksandr Kerensky I put in was actually just to clarify, why the crusader faction of the clans believe in conquering the IS and if they would establish clan society, the houses would have to go, as you know the clans have a caste system, and refer to freeborns as second class beings... so I take a wild guess what would have happened if the crusader faction of the clans would have succeeded.

Edited by Noakei Siegel, 15 August 2012 - 07:10 PM.

[TANTE EMMA]

Sidney, on 15 August 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

The Clan that was the leader of the Wardens has in its Remembrance a passage that describes the Clans returning to the Inner Sphere, cutting down the 'barbarians' and retaking Terra...and the Khan of the very Clan that takes Terra is supposed to become the new First Lord of a restored Star League.

Aff, you refer to the Wardens, do you honestly think, that the crusaders would have thrown all their believes over board, and adapted to IS-society in any way, I surely doubt that.

Let me quote from the Clan sourcebook:

"The crusaders do prefer the reformation of the Star League by force, with the Clans at its head." p.75

Edited by Noakei Siegel, 15 August 2012 - 07:06 PM.