179 replies to this topic

[990Dreams]

I think it is important. If a player wants to improve/ruin his mech, let him win/fail. His choice to lose, or to win. It makes it harder on the player; "Should I equip this or that? Nope, that isn't good. So I will use that one."

Edited by DavidHurricane, 06 March 2012 - 08:10 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Hard choice.
While we have limited mechs available and with the full rules from the TechManual i'm able to make a Dragon that perform like an Rifleman - but i think it is really stupid when the fist in the left arm looses a salvo of AC grenades.
A more restricted system would keep the "flavor" of a specific unit. But there are still problems: Dragon - Grand Dragon, Zeus - 6S - Zeus 9S...
how to replace a AC with a PPC in MW4 style? What if i want to mount a AC 10 but the slot fit only for a AC 5?

I think a good way would be something between:

• limited exchange of equipment only for the same type and same weight a LRM5 for a SRM4 - example Vindicator)
  
• normal exchange of equipment - removing a AC5 for PPC and 2 heatsinks, AC20 for GaussRifle
  
• major exchange of equipment no limits and mounting jump jets
  
• factory modification everything that means to modify the chassis: Endosteel, mounting CASE, different fusion

i think the first 3 modifications should be available, the last seems more like buying a complete new mech

[Vernius Ix]

Canon Variants only.
Omni Mechs pay massive fee's to customize

[Black Sunder]

First let me say I'm completely for full mech customization and everything that goes with it. Having said that heres an idea to avoid the gunbags thing people keep hammering about. Give each mech one or 2 bonuses directed toward its primary weapons.

Good example here is the Commando, give it a SRM damage bonus and a SRM lock time bonus or something. Give the Catapult bonuses to LRM weapons. Give the Centurion a bonus to LRM and AC. Etc Etc.....

People will be more inclined to put the weapons on that are bonused when refitting a mech to how they want it.

Edited by Black Sunder, 08 March 2012 - 04:02 PM.

[Michael Rosario]

Even though this is a moot point since we've already been told that we're going to have the mech lab and it's going to be based on hardpoints (In this interview here), then the matters pretty much settled. However, I do have to throw in my two cents.

I'm glad. I LIKED the mechlab in MW4:M. It made sense: The structure could only handle so much of X weapon (the "slots" on a weapon or hardpoint i.e. it's "height"), and could only support the pressures that a certain type of system (laser, ballistics, or missile) would put on it. I'm glad they're using something like this.

As for what part variants should play: I think they should determine the hardpoints and basic "level of structure" of a mech. What do I mean by "level of structure"? Simply put, I mean that I still think you should be able to modify how much armor or what systems are in a mech, but only to a certain point. If you buy a very lightly-armored variant because it has more hardpoints, even if you max out the armor, I think you shouldn't be allowed to get it to the same amount of armor as a more heavily-armored, fewer hardpoint-ed variant. The "low armor" version may only start out with .5 tons in the cockpit (going off of MW4:M here) and be able to max out at 1.2 tons, whereas the "high armor" version might start out at .9 tons and go to 1.9 tons. But that's just my opinion.

Edited by Michael Rosario, 09 March 2012 - 02:08 AM.

[risky1337]

I fully agree and actually have nothing to add to that.

[Evgeny Bear]

Like in MW4 I still don't like the idea to see Mechs with 3 Thumpers and a bunch of Autocannons to ruin my day.

[Polymorphyne]

The MW4 Mechlab DID NOT make sense.
How does putting 4 lasers into a wolfhounds arm cannon make sense? It clearly only has one weapon on that arm.

edit: It also enabled players to build variants that are impossible in cannon, and also at the same time made alot of canon variants unbuildable.
It also had weapons that dont exist in mechwarrior and lacked weapons that did. (i.e., what the hell is a heavy rocket launcher? The mechlab has a heavy rocket launcher and a rocket launcher.... real battletech has instead a set of normal rocket launchers using the same system as lrms/srms... (rocket 10, rocket 15, rocket 20, etc)
It also allows you to not have the hard mounted med lasers on the avatar..... when it is literally impossible in the canon to equip and avatar without them...
and lots of other canon violations.....

Edited by Longsword, 09 March 2012 - 03:42 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Confirmed- MWO is using a hardpoint system. So no modding mechs willy nilly like mw 3.



around 3:00 into the video.

[Michael Rosario]

I posted the link to that video exactly 5 posts above, you know. 6, if you count this one.

Edited by Michael Rosario, 09 March 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Michael Rosario, on 09 March 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

I posted the link to that video exactly 5 posts above, you know. 6, if you count this one.

Yah, I saw it after I posted. Oh well.

[MaddMaxx]

Michael Rosario, on 09 March 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

I posted the link to that video exactly 5 posts above, you know. 6, if you count this one.

So that makes 156 Links to that same Video on the Forum, so one more can't hurt right?

[DURC]

While a like the MW4 mechlab, some things seem incorrect. The Behemoth has one large balistics cannon, and should be capable of shooting a Heavy Geuss Cannon. It can, but because it has only 1 scope it shouldn't be able to shoot several machineguns at once.

[Soviet Alex]

We'll have to wait & see. But if I can't build canon Battletech variants, I'm going to be annoyed.

The skill tree for each mech chassis requires us to master multiple variants. If I'm rubbish with one of those variants, I'm going to want to mod it into something I can level up.

[Gremlich Johns]

No cross-teching allowed is my preference. Although a Grizzly with Clan ER Large Lasers and the IS Light Gauss was pretty formidable.

[docmorningstar]

BatWing, on 01 November 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:

I played all of the Battletech / Mechwarrior versions.

A Catapult is a Catapult. To me, removing the missile launchers to replace with PPCs or ACs or LL is an abomination. I don t care if someone did it in the past. The original Battletech didn t have that ****. You should be able to modify missile settings, smaller or bigger racks, that make sense. Artemis or LRM or SRM that make sense.

Catapult K2 is a twin PPC cat variant....pretty sure it is official, too.

[MaddMaxx]

docmorningstar, on 21 March 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

Catapult K2 is a twin PPC cat variant....pretty sure it is official, too.

from Sarna:

Quote

"CPLT-K2 - Breaking the mold of the Catapult, the K2 model removes the LRM-15 launchers and replaces them with two PPCs which allow the Catapult to act as a direct fire support 'Mech and take a more active role in front line combat. The 'Mech has additional single heat sinks to help dissipate the added heat from the PPCs. The K2 also has two Machine Guns to deter infantry attacks."

The funny thing is, for the rabid "more BV is better" fans, the K2 has less BV than the Prime version. LOL!

[docmorningstar]

That is because it is..um...not very good at heat management....

I think they devs are going with a hardpoint system for graphical reasons. Earthsiege had a nice hardpoint system that actually updated the chassis with whatever weapon you were using, so I remember that was kinda cool.

stonewall, on 02 November 2011 - 06:27 PM, said:

I am in favor of a full mechlab. A proper combat and economy model would solve any min/max/boat issues.

Yeah, I like this approach.

Here is how I would suggest doing it:

Each weapon has a cost in game
Every 'crit slot' you change from your stock variant costs time and money and increases the 'level of customization' of the mech.
The more customized a mech is (higher 'level of customization) the more expensive it is to repair EVERYTHING on the mech.

So there is an upfront cost to modifying a mech (time and money) based on the price of the equipment and the amount of stuff you are swapping around.

There is then a higher maintenance cost associated with the fact that things ain't in the right place any more. This cost gets worse and worse the more customized the mech is.

Example:

Panther-9R stock
Weapons:
PPC: 200k cbills, 3 crits, 7 tons
SRM-4: 60k cbills, 1 crit, 2 tons
SRM-4 ammo, 27k cbills, 1 crit, 1 ton

Total value: 287k cbills
Total crits: 5
Total tons: 10

I want to modify it to have a LL + SRM-6
LL: 100k cbills, 2 crits, 5 tons
SRM-6: 80k cbills, 2 crits, 3 tons
SRM-6 ammo: 27k cbills, 1 crit, 1 ton
1x HS: 10k cbills, 1 crit 1 ton



Total value: 217k cbills
Total crits: 6
Total tons: 10

So, we turn a 70k cbill profit, but we have to pay some made up number of tech hours to swap that crap out. Call it 1 hr per crit at a rate of 250k per crit. That is 6 hrs and 1500k creds (note, all prices are based on CBT) that is ~40% the price of a brand new panther. Not insignificant. It also gives the mech a 'customization value' of 6 (essentially how many critical slots are occupied by different things than canon).

We then use something like a natural log function that hits 2x cost @ customization level 20 (what this does is effectively cap the 'worst' case cost multiplier)

That means, at a customization level 6, it costs ~40% more to fix EVERYTHING on your mech - effectively increasing your operating costs. What this represents is that there are alot of parts that just don't work on your mech. The ammo feed tube is the wrong size, so you need to have it custom-fixed. The mounting brackets for weapons are all wrong, so any damage to them needs a new part. etc etc etc. The more you mess with, the more it costs to fix anything. The reason that it starts to level off is that at some point, pretty much everything is now 'custom built'.

The balance this brings is that you can field a pimped out deathmobile to the battlefield, but it is going to cost a crap ton to keep it in operation. This is vs a stock mech that might not be so good, but you can afford to repair, win or lose. You really will have to be 'elite' to keep such a mech in the field. Couple this with accurate BV tracking (so that you can't just upgrade the snot out of your mech and outgun the opposition), a variety of mission types that may force you to take damage, and reward your opponents based on how tough *you* are

It also gives a *great* place for omnimechs. Allow clammer omnimechs to swap pod space for minimum time, and only equipment costs. Don't allow them to change internals *at all*. Don't allow any of the clammer second line mechs to change loadout at all (clams are big on fighting what you are told to fight). IS omnimechs can swap pod space for low time/equipment costs. internal space/engine/ etc can be swapped under the same rules as above.

That gives each mech type a role through the whole game:

IS 'standard' models are cheaper to buy, cheaper to field, and still are competitive in a BV based environment
IS 'custom' models are cheaper to buy, expensive to mod, and expensive to field, but in an 'elite' pilots hands can be worth the cost
IS 'Omni' models are expensive to buy, cheaper to field, so they reward pilots who put in their grind with the 'good' stuff
Clan 'standard' models are cheaper to operate and lower in BV (and more available?)
Clan 'omnis' are a bit more time intensive to operate, but kings of battle (in a 1v1 sense)