22 replies to this topic

[NameTheftVictim]

I grew up with MechWarrior 2, but only recently did I decide to take a look at some of the other BattleTech fiction and sourcebooks out there. The one thing that struck me the most was how anthropomorphic the BattleMechs were, at least compared to their video game counterparts (obviously, they're not as humanlike as Japanese mecha!).

Mechs have hands, flexible limbs, even melee weapons, etc. I guess these elements didn't really feature in the games, since the focus was on blowing junk up, not punching things, but it was definitely unexpected.

I for one prefer the more machine-like depiction of BattleMechs, not just because they're more nostalgic for me, but also because they're slightly more believable- or at least as believable as 100 ton tanks with legs can be.

[CoffiNail]

The ONLY reason no game to date has had uses for the hands and limbs of a mech is we had no technology to utalize it.

I would love to see the ability to punch a mech, or shoot off the arm, and be able to pick it up and beat the crap out of the other mech... but I hardly doubt our tech could do this easily.

[Kenyon Burguess]

i have always liked the diverse selection of mechs and battlearmor in the BT universe. the more designs the merrier IMO, even if my own preference is a AC for one arm and a full arm and hand for the other. admit it, the http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Fenrir just looks bad ***.

Edited by Geist Null, 21 February 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[Stahlseele]

TT Style please.
Even if they are useless, they look nice.

[William White]

if this like the wargame picking up someone elses lost limb made very good weapons

[ArchLurker Chad]

I like variety. One does not exclude the other.
Generally though I think the smaller the mechs are more plausible to be human shaped, and the bigger it gets the more bulky and machinelike it should be.

[Polymorphyne]

You have to remember those hands are not there for show- they have actual viable reasons to have hands.
I once read in one battletech novel that alot of Inner Sphere mechwarrior's prefer mechs with hands- as a mech with no hands has alot of trouble getting back up after it is knocked down.
During a battle, a mechs hands can also pick up a friendly escape pod to evacuate it, clear rubble from a friendly downed mech, punch things, clear obstructions from roads to enable the convoy to procede, clear rubble from tunnel entrances, wield melee weapons, grapple with enemy mechs.
After the battle, a mech with hands becomes a great piece of heavy machinery to assist with salvage/repair operations- it can lift pretty heavy stuff after all.

[Mordhar]

CoffiNail, on 21 February 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

The ONLY reason no game to date has had uses for the hands and limbs of a mech is we had no technology to utalize it.

....

Not necessary a fact.
Some mechs (Gladiator, Kodiak and some others) in MW4 for example, were redesigned to make them look less anthropomorphic. Not just hands but also the shape of the cockpit and torso, which have nothing to do with technological limitations.
And I think it was the best thing Microsoft ever did to MW/BT universe.

[Leetskeet]

Because this looks silly http://www.sarna.net...e:Stormcrow.jpg

Take mah strong hand!

Certain mechs like the Atlas wouldn't look right without them, but a lot of mechs(Ryoken, Shadowcat, Uller, etc) just have a hand or hands slapped on for the hell of it, and it makes them look retarded. The MW games removed hands on most of the mechs not simply because of technology, they certainly could have added a punching animation on the Atlas in MW4, but because it just doesn't make sense. The idea people seem to have is that the Atlas is just going to walk up through a hail of bullets and punch the **** out of something and 1 hit K.O. it. It's silly. Oh can an Atlas grab an Osiris and rip its legs off? Probably. Will it ever catch that sum'*****? No. And let's even say the Osiris is disabled and can't run away. Why would you need to walk all the way up to melee it whilst getting shot at when you can just pop it a few times from a distance?

Aside from the fact that controlling a mech to move individual limbs and make complicated humanoid movements like punching doesn't seem very possible with two pedals to control the walking motion of the legs, a stick for aiming and a stick for torso twist, and a helmet that orients the mech's balance. It's not like Gundam were they're either semi-psychic or have a helmet/chamber that lets the machine mimic their thoughts/movements, so I'm not quite sure how they're running around like 40 foot tall humans kicking, punching, waving, swinging melee weapons, and even sticking one arm out to shoot like in ye old MW2 intro.

I can see it now, the posts about how it's an fictional universe and logic need not apply.

[Polymorphyne]

Quote

Aside from the fact that controlling a mech to move individual limbs and make complicated humanoid movements like punching doesn't.....

Actually the two pedals + 2 joysticks are so simple because most of the actions are taken care of by the mechs computer- the pilot doesn't have to control the hand smashing into the enemy mech, he just moves the joystick to put the crosshair over part of the enemy mech and hits a button, the rest of the process is automated.

[pursang]

Bring on the 'Mech punching and head crushing I say!

[Mordhar]

Maybe. But what about more complex tasks?
For example grabbing a leg/arm ripped from another mech, and using it as a club. Pointing crosshair to object and pushing button will not work, because it means every possible situation needs to be preprogrammed.
And in BT universe computers are big, heavy and slow. Even ability to accurately predict trajectory of missiles and cannon shells require installation of additional devices, which weights 1-2ton each. If simple task, that can be performed by modern devices with the size of mobile phone require such monstrosity in BT,than computer of what size and weight needed for automated human-like arm movement?

Edited by Mordhar, 22 February 2012 - 05:47 AM.

[Polymorphyne]

Quote

Physical combat and interaction mode switches - these activate the physical combat modes which switche the foot pedals and joysticks to control kicking, punching, and carrying, and other similar functions. Waldo gloves, located on either side of the command couch, are used on older 'Mechs for more intricate arm and hand controls; while newer 'Mechs have more capable computers, programming, and sensor controls that allow for some more complex movements such as grasping an improvised club, carefully carrying an unconscious pilot, or engaging in large scale battlefield engineering, all without much pilot input. Physical combat is otherwise a simple point at the target you want and pull the trigger to kick or punch affair. Engaging any of these modes activates a boosted neurohelmet priority mode for greater feedback to the pilot and greater control by the pilot.

Quote

he main joystick. This is the primary control for targeting the weapons systems and control of the 'Mechs arms. It has firing triggers for each of the target interlock circuits (TIC), with as many as six triggers. Weapons aiming is achieved by using this stick to "point" with the reticule on the primary view screen and "clicking" with the desired weapons triggers. The finger rests are sensitive and are used to help control the 'Mechs hands in physical modes. When in physical mode the joystick moves up and down as well as side to side.

So, as you see- if you are in an old mech, you slip your hands into a pair of gloves and use those gloves to control the mechs hands, its fingers do what your fingers do.
If you are in a modern mech, you flick a toggle, then start moving your joystick to move the hand around. Hitting fire or a similar button would make it punch, you could probably use other buttons on the joystick to make it grab instead. The computer doesnt need thousandds of pre-programmed commands- if your mech can walk around without falling over, im pretty sure it can grab things, which is actually alot easier to do.
(Tons of engineers have made robots with graspers and even full hands in the past decade or two, none have succesfully made working bipedal legs.)

http://www.sarna.net...Mech_Technology

[Exilyth]

Mordhar, on 22 February 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

Maybe. But what about more complex tasks?
For example grabbing a leg/arm ripped from another mech, and using it as a club. Pointing crosshair to object and pushing button will not work, because it means every possible situation needs to be preprogrammed.
And in BT universe computers are big, heavy and slow. Even ability to accurately predict trajectory of missiles and cannon shells require installation of additional devices, which weights 1-2ton each. If simple task, that can be performed by modern devices with the size of mobile phone require such monstrosity in BT,than computer of what size and weight needed for automated human-like arm movement?

Solving a kinematic chain in an inverse manner (aka: inverse kinematics) for 3 joints (shoulder, arm, hand) is not trivial, but doable.
I'm not counting the fingers here: since they're mostly restricted to opening/closing, it's enough to align the palm above/aside the object to grab. Still, having manual control available for the few rare cases where you need it doesn't hurt.

Since all mechs with arms can punch, I'd guess the needed circuitry is included in the cockpit.

And for targeting computers, well... http://www.sarna.net...geting_Computer


On topic:
I prefer mechs looking more like a machine.
Some designs, like the commando and firestarter, are good examples.
They're humanoid, yet they look like they could have come rolling from a manufacturing line of today.

What I've learned over the years is that taste changes over the years, some designs I once hated I wouldn't want to miss now, especially some of the quirkier designs. But some, like the protomechs, I'll never like.

[Grithis]

NameTheftVictim, on 21 February 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

I for one prefer the more machine-like depiction of BattleMechs, not just because they're more nostalgic for me, but also because they're slightly more believable- or at least as believable as 100 ton tanks with legs can be.

Months later, and people are still saying this?! What is so unrealistic or unbelievable about doing whatever is necessary in a combat situation?

You compare them to tanks. Well, if a tank crew on the lines in Afganistan or Iraq or wherever the hell we americans are poking our noses now, runs out of ammo or gets it's main gun shot off and finds it's way out blocked by the enemy, are you telling me ramming is out of the question, or unbelievable?

The need to survive makes any and all tactics, regardless of sanity, viable at some point. Melee combat is by no means a stretch of the imagination. 50+ tons of steel-buckling force is a pretty effective weapon, in my book.

[Kephas]

I would like to have a 3rd person cam and a the possibility to kick and punch. Why not? To kick a Zeus with a Battlemaster could be fun.

[NameTheftVictim]

Grithis, on 22 February 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Months later, and people are still saying this?! What is so unrealistic or unbelievable about doing whatever is necessary in a combat situation?

You compare them to tanks. Well, if a tank crew on the lines in Afganistan or Iraq or wherever the hell we americans are poking our noses now, runs out of ammo or gets it's main gun shot off and finds it's way out blocked by the enemy, are you telling me ramming is out of the question, or unbelievable?

The need to survive makes any and all tactics, regardless of sanity, viable at some point. Melee combat is by no means a stretch of the imagination. 50+ tons of steel-buckling force is a pretty effective weapon, in my book.

It's not the melee applications that I find unrealistic. It's the fact that the 'Mechs have dextrous individual fingers, which takes up space that could be used for more guns. I don't have any opposition to ramming. I just don't personally prefer more humanlike 'Mechs. I prefer 'Mechs that are depicted as walking tanks. Real life tanks can ram, but they don't put fists on them specifically for punching.

Edited by NameTheftVictim, 22 February 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[Datum]

NameTheftVictim, on 21 February 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

I grew up with MechWarrior 2

AH!
Mechwarrior 2 featured Clan mechs (with 2 exceptions), which tend to be more machine-like. The vast majority of the Inner Sphere mechs we're dealing with right now were actually far more humanoid. Also, technology has significantly improved since then, so we're able to properly model and animate the more human-like mechs, as opposed to gluing the arms straight forwards without elbows, etc.

NameTheftVictim, on 22 February 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

It's not the melee applications that I find unrealistic. It's the fact that the 'Mechs have dextrous individual fingers, which takes up space that could be used for more guns. I don't have any opposition to ramming. I just don't personally prefer more humanlike 'Mechs. I prefer 'Mechs that are depicted as walking tanks. Real life tanks can ram, but they don't put fists on them specifically for punching.

Fingers provide useful logistical purposes. When not in combat, a 40 ton mech is very handy (lol) when it can pick stuff up and help out with loading etc.

Edited by Datum, 22 February 2012 - 08:12 PM.

[Polymorphyne]

Also, fingers don't weigh alot- stripping the hands of a mech would perhaps give you room for a machine gun array, tops, and then leave the mech unable to assist in salvage or right itself after a fall.

[pursang]

Longsword, on 22 February 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

Also, fingers don't weigh alot- stripping the hands of a mech would perhaps give you room for a machine gun array, tops, and then leave the mech unable to assist in salvage or right itself after a fall.

Or to help right a downed 'Mech in trouble. Or moving debris out of the way. Or covering your 'Mech with foilage to camoflauge it. Or...

You get the idea.