5 replies to this topic

[br41nd34d]

I have spent some time reading forums, Q&A's and ask the devs but not found anything relating to this. Its nice the devs want to prolong fights but forcing ballistic/missile heavy mechs to blow their loads for 50% effectiveness is a tad harsh... If i am wrong and missed something please forgive me. As it stands the poor hunchback is going to not be able to get bang for his buck with low tonnage of ammo on Mr ac/20. Double armour for me means ammo should also be doubled to compensate... Discuss?

[Black Djinn]

If i am correct, the basic idea is that - since there are no dice-rolls involved in hitting and hitlocation- the ammount of shots fired that miss will be far lower (which indirectly means a ammo-buff). Additionaly non-rocket weapons will be easier to group.
For example:

A Hunchback HBK 4G fights a Whatever WHE 1X. Whatever has 20points of armor on each location.

In TT:
let's say you fire only short range which means hitting chances of about 58%.
So you will need 2 shots for one hit.
Additionaly these shots spread randomly around the mech.
Let's say you need to hit 3 times till you hit the same location again(this second hit will kill that location).
Since a loss of a section means massive reduction of fighting capilities we consider you have "won" then.
This means you need about 7 shots to kill the enemy mech.

in MWO:
Since you shot exactly where you aim, let's say you miss about 25% completly.
About every second shot will hit the same location.
Since armor is doubled (but structure is not) you need to hit a location 3 times to kill it.
3 hits to location means 6 general hits. Whit a hitting quote of 75% you need 7.5 shots to "kill" the enemy mech.

As you can see the total numbers of shots are rather close (7 to 7.5).
(you can reduce them even more by practising your aiming)

Conclusion: I don't see massive problems whit ballistic ammo-count. I am far more concerned about missle, as they will still spread randomly over the whole mech.

Edited by Black Djinn, 13 August 2012 - 12:38 AM.

[br41nd34d]

I agree somewhat with what you are saying but there are variables in play in a simulator what you cannot account for just like with rolling a dice. Unpredictable torso twists, damage knocking off your aim, change it terrain moving your crosshairs just before the shot. Arms crossing over the torso, enemy movements, travel time on shots etc

For me the problem with double armour is in TT no matter where that ac/20 lands the enemy is going to be squirming.. In mwo a well played assault/light enemy could spread/dodge the damage enough to out last a hunchies ammo. Leaving a mech firing blanks after 1 engagement.

You could say that this is a skill issue but for me you cannot double one without increasing the other..

As for missiles i 100% agree with you that as a weapons platform they are getting the shortest end of the stick.

[Redshift2k5]

double armor does not need a counter; Double armor is the counter-balance to extremely precise mouse-aim. Every shot being an aimed shot is not accounted for in the normal TT rules, and once you let someone aim for the head/ct/any specific location with each and every shot, sections(cockpits in particular!) would be extremely easy to destroy.

Mouse-aiming is not perfect, the simulator has lots of things that affect your aim (driving a mech is simply more difficult than running&gunning in a typical FPS)

Make your shots count and double armor won't be a problem.

[Birddog FAC]

Redshift2k5, on 13 August 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

double armor does not need a counter; Double armor is the counter-balance to extremely precise mouse-aim. Every shot being an aimed shot is not accounted for in the normal TT rules, and once you let someone aim for the head/ct/any specific location with each and every shot, sections(cockpits in particular!) would be extremely easy to destroy.

Mouse-aiming is not perfect, the simulator has lots of things that affect your aim (driving a mech is simply more difficult than running&gunning in a typical FPS)

Make your shots count and double armor won't be a problem.

this on many accounts is just plain wrong.

Buy not counter with Ammo and rate of fire adjustment (and i believe some changes still need to be made) It makes missiles and Ballistic weapons (which get more bang for their buck and less heat on top of that) less appealing or useful. if i need to get twice as much ammo for a weapon system to do equivalent damage why take the weapon unless im forced to. If you have noticed due to rate of fire issues, double armor, and low ammunition Medium laser systems have taken over the beta. The only other weapons I have seen used are missile boats (lots of LRMS / SRMS) as with the double armor you can carry more ammo with less armor gaining either a higher alpha with SRMs or a lot more damage with standoff LRMS. Note that SRMS are a lot lighter and therefore keep armor while increasing damage output at short range.

In my Opinion the real issue here is the Heat generation / compensation system and the amazingly quick rate of fire of almost all weapons. Slowing down rate of fire and also reducing mech armor to 150% instead of 200% seems like a much better way to balance this game then leaving lasers firing every one to 5 seconds and ACs firing ever 4-7 seconds. The ACs should fire every 6-12 seconds and the lasers should fire every 4-10 seconds. to allow for heat bleed off and to slow the pace of the game. The beam weapons have always been a trade that gives average damage for high heat (comparably per point of damage) for the lack of ammunition needed. as it currently sits even i have to go energy heavy as the armor allotments make for long games that i can not justify putting 4-6 tons of ammo on a AC/20 which weights in at a wopping 14 tons without ammo just to last through a game. the only mechs you see do that are Gunn/Gauss apults and the Atlas which has enough of a weapons payload to deal with it without crippling the mech.

Also note these fairly obvious counters to the precise aiming you are saying is there.

1. Fire Delay
2. Slow Ballistic speed we are firing at not over 1200 meters i do not know many weapons modern day that would take more than 2.5 seconds for it to get to its target at 1200 meters and most fights are under 500 due to the targeting and visual issues in game.
3. mech bounce effects target point.( this is just a visual effect but can sully shots)
4. double armor
5. minor weapons scatter built into game no shot hits the same place exactly twice even at close range except lasers try it out some time.

-Preatorian

Edited by Praetorians, 13 August 2012 - 04:27 AM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

before i say something here, i´ll have to play a ballistic only mech first... i normally won´t because i hate it when i am unable to shoot, because ammo went out,,,normally i have at least a medium laser or something with my setup...

and btw... this discussion would be more effective in beta forums, because in general forums we can´t speak freely about ingame mechanics...

OP, buy a pack NAO, i wanna keep this discussion on xD
jk

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 15 August 2012 - 04:50 AM.