39 replies to this topic

[Lima Zulu]

There is a topic containing some nice suggestions for drophips:
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[FinnMcKool]

the game begs for (at least I do) for Player controlled Dropships !

With rules of course,No landing on mechs, ect.

but if the weapons are automated wouldnt that make it more deadly? more liklely to be abused ,have some rules about how many times a pickup or drop is made where and when, wouldnt it be cool to have a dropship swoop down and give you a place to retreat to when you find your self, maybe team on the wrong end of a bad strategy? Or the commander gives orders to drop the scout off at 1 end of the map, with orders to be picked up at the other is so much time , a swift recon and extraction, ???
You gotta say YES!
dropship cant be indestructible and when lost that in itself open the possibilitys , Does the team lose cause they are stuck there ?

the skill tree should be just like the Mechs mods and all should be the same.
Why not?
I have seen hints that there will be some kind of dropships, Hopefully no respawning joke. well?


Please consider using McKools Cattle Raiders for your Dropship needs
McKools Cattle Raiders now offering by popular demand a "before Drop" Coffee Espresso and Latte Bar.
Remember Finn as your designated driver, always there for you, always sober.

and dont forget Free steak Dinner for those who make the ride home.

P.S. emptie coffee cans are available to take with on those extra long missions.

McKools will not be held responsible for burns acquired from spilled coffee during missions, Finn recommends you up grade your mech with anti-spill cupholders, Any accidents from bladder overfill or sudden release is the express responsibility of mech pilot.


Remember its a cruel universe out there.

[Chris Fetladral]

I believe the inclusion of dropships would surely enhance gameplay from a tactical perspective. First and foremore would be extractions. In previous MW games, it was a bit mundane to win a match and just disappear. Manually walking into a dropship, watching the bay doors shut, then the rumble as it takes off adds a bit more spice to your accomplishment.
Secondly, they provide quite the cover-fire under dire situations. Your lancemates are dead and you're piloting a damaged lightmech? You're going to need all the firesupport in the world with that lance or company of Heavy/Assaults coming after you.

On a more tactical level, the only thing I can really say is this- Gamma Galaxy of Clan Jade Falcon vs Archer Christifori and his taskforce during Operation Bludgeon. How the falcons marched through the Diabolis in the Great Gash, and the dropships provided a distraction for Archer and his comrades, before his rear elements go blasted to snot by the Falcon's Fury.

Another point of the dropships is extraction. If anything, maybe allow the commander to move it once after the initial drop. A good use of such is an overrun LZ. I don't know if an 'orderly withdrawal' would be coded into the game dynamics, but from a tactical standpoint, if you could withdrawal from a battlefield with minimum damage (rather than total destruction) that could save on repairs for players as well. Just an idea.

[Solis Obscuri]

I would love to see dropships included - I'm loving all these ideas for tactical deployments and withdrawals!

Chris_Fetladral, on 01 February 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

How do you feel about the opera?

[osito]

I like the idea of having teams deploy and extract from their dropship. At the end of the battle the winning side can have recovery vehicles come from their dropship and gain salvage. Also what if your team is losing bad and you know their is little chance to win, you could retreat to your dropship and evac. that way all your mechs aren't destroyed and your repair bill/time wont kill you either. The other reason i see to use it is to keep the spawn/respawn argument a good middle ground. If you are hurt get back to your dropship for some quick repairs. This will not be run in to ship then run out with a completely new mech. no it will be like get some armor and ammo and you are stuck in their for a couple of min while work being done.

[Dayuhan]

Currently we are looking at battle scenario's where the largest unit size is going to be a Company of three Lances (12 'mechs). Unless you are talking about the smallest of the military Dropships (Leopard Class) any Dropship would easily wipe a Company off the map all by itself without any support whatsoever from the 'mechs it was transporting - The Union and Overlord class dropships are both heavily armed and armoured.

[Strum Wealh]

Dayuhan, on 02 February 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Currently we are looking at battle scenario's where the largest unit size is going to be a Company of three Lances (12 'mechs). Unless you are talking about the smallest of the military Dropships (Leopard Class) any Dropship would easily wipe a Company off the map all by itself without any support whatsoever from the 'mechs it was transporting - The Union and Overlord class dropships are both heavily armed and armoured.

Not as much as one might think...

Overlord
Armor: Standard

• Fore: 22
  
• Sides: 21
  
• Aft: 15

Armaments:

• PPC x6
  
• AC-20 x2
  
• AC-5 x6
  
• Medium Laser x12
  
• LRM-20 x3
  
• Large Laser x6

Union
Armor: Standard

• Fore: 18
  
• Sides: 18
  
• Aft: 10

Armaments:

• PPC x3
  
• AC-5 x6
  
• LRM-20 x6
  
• Medium Laser x12
  
• Large Laser x5

DropShips are very heavily armed, in terms of number of weapons, in comparison to 'Mechs, but they carry the same grade of weapons as BattleMechs (as opposed to the naval-grade weapons carried by WarShips), and they are not actually as well armored as some BattleMechs - the armor on each of an Atlas' legs is nearly twice as thick as that protecting the flanks or nose of the average Overlord-class DropShip!

As such, it doesn't seem too far-fetched to think that a good number of 'Mechs - mainly the heavier assault 'Mechs - could put a hole in a Dropship... and maybe even bring one down?
After all, once one puts a hole in a DropShip, it's not too likely to be space-worthy for the immediate future...

[BubblePanda]

I might think that dropships would take some experimenting, considering if you put all participating pilots on one dropship and the dropship was destroyed, game over. Tactically, I think it's a thrilling concept.

[Shalmyan Moonsong]

I think dropships need some experimenting as well, maybe a "Destroy the Dropship" Mission, but if they were used all the time people would just bunker down near them and add the fire power of the lance to the firepower of the dropship, becuase no one would be willing to leave that long rage fire support.

Make the dropships off map, let it be lance VS lance to start.

[FACEman Peck]

I personally like dropships, and an awesome way to be used is they can be dropped on the OBJ, and blast the crap out of everything around it, having 4 Gauss and 4 PPC on each dividable side is awesome. Weapons boat for the WIN!!!

[LionOne]

I'd like to see a "Succession Wars" type implementation. Most DropShips controlled by the central command of the great houses, only the wealthiest/most successful mercenary units able to afford their own DropShips. This eliminates many of the game balance difficulties mentioned in this thread.

Due to the scarcity of DropShips in the 3025 era, and the fact that production of DropShips was only occuring at limited facilities, crews (as wells as commands) weren't willing to risk damage/destruction/capture of those assets - which is why the Leopard Class wasn't used as the ground attack vehicle of choice. Dropships also have a pretty low firepower to weight ratio compared to 'mechs or Aerospace fighters. In 3025, 4 Aerospace fighters, competently managed, will take down a Leopard without breaking a sweat. Union and Overlord dropships have heavier weapons and armor, but they are still vulnerable to swarms of aerospace fighters and ground defenses. It's only after the "Clan Invasion" that you start seeing Hamilcar-type DropShips with heavy armor and armament.

There were a lot of "Marquis de Queensbury" type rules during the Succession Wars because technology was limited - you did not use nukes, you did not attack JumpShips, you did not destroy facilities which could make fusion engines, etc.

On a complete side note: There was an old module - "Sorenson's Sabres" and there was a picture of the CO on the cover in a jumpsuit with a "Drop Recon" tab over the Seventh Sword of Light insignia that has always interested me. The idea of a recon insertion out of a DropShip in low orbit is pretty neat.

[trycksh0t]

Strum Wealh, on 02 February 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Not as much as one might think...

Overlord
Armor: Standard

• Fore: 22
  
• Sides: 21
  
• Aft: 15

Armaments:

• PPC x6
  
• AC-20 x2
  
• AC-5 x6
  
• Medium Laser x12
  
• LRM-20 x3
  
• Large Laser x6

Union

Armor: Standard

• Fore: 18
  
• Sides: 18
  
• Aft: 10

Armaments:

• PPC x3
  
• AC-5 x6
  
• LRM-20 x6
  
• Medium Laser x12
  
• Large Laser x5

DropShips are very heavily armed, in terms of number of weapons, in comparison to 'Mechs, but they carry the same grade of weapons as BattleMechs (as opposed to the naval-grade weapons carried by WarShips), and they are not actually as well armored as some BattleMechs - the armor on each of an Atlas' legs is nearly twice as thick as that protecting the flanks or nose of the average Overlord-class DropShip!


As such, it doesn't seem too far-fetched to think that a good number of 'Mechs - mainly the heavier assault 'Mechs - could put a hole in a Dropship... and maybe even bring one down?
After all, once one puts a hole in a DropShip, it's not too likely to be space-worthy for the immediate future...

For the record, the armor values listed on Sarna are deceiving, as dropship armor is =/= the equivalent BattleMech armor. Converting to what the equivalent value would be if it were armor on a 'Mech, a Union carries 180 points on the nose and sides, and 100 points aft. Overlords carry 220 points in the nose, 210 on the sides, and 150 aft, and those are the old 3025 production values.

Edited by trycksh0t, 05 February 2012 - 01:13 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Im thinking a specefic gamemode with a drop ship would be awesome. Maybe something where one team has to defend it with no respawns, and the attacking team gets limited respawns to take it down.

Sounds fun to me!

[verybad]

FinnMcKool, on 01 February 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Please consider using McKools Cattle Raiders for your Dropship needs
McKools Cattle Raiders now offering by popular demand a "before Drop" Coffee Espresso and Latte Bar.
Remember Finn as your designated driver, always there for you, always sober.

and dont forget Free steak Dinner for those who make the ride home.

P.S. emptie coffee cans are available to take with on those extra long missions

My Company was forced to purchase a merc's services during an exraction on Mallory's World. While I am not normally impressed with mercenary dogs, I must admit that seeing the Union along with fighter escort they sent for our extraction (naturally a few days later than the original planned one) almost brought a tear to my eye (one is a replacement).

They had busted in on a pirate point, came in through the last hour under increasing pressure from Fed fighters (they left their escort figther carrier in orbit to do the high guard while the Union did a hard fast direct drop where my company was holding off a Fed Militia Battalion (god I hate tanks).

So the "uncle" (my compay's nickname for Unions after this mission) lands under HEAVY AAA and the piloit SIDESLIPS the dropship over a bunch of tanks moving in , burns them to a crisp with the thrust, then sideslips back to the landing point, and we run it. I've never seen a dropper do that before or since.

Got the stuff we needed regarding the Mallory's World Diaper Concern http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mallory's_World (apparently it is NOT a hidden military factory, thanks "Intelligence"). Got out. 3 of my close friends are unfortunately still on that world, but that is not the fault of McKools Cattle Raiders

So we get onboard and bust towards the pirate point where the jumper is at. A very pretty young lady comes up to me and say's "Hi warrior, do you want room for cream?"

A good cup of coffee after fighting for your lives for the last week, with very little sleep, stinking like who know's what, and just a little bit of humanit goes a long way..

I am not ashamed to admit that I did cry a little bit at that time. I don't know what for. The duality in human nature, the loss of my fellow warriors. I took it black and contemplated on this before sleeping.

In any case, I would highly reccomend McKools Cattle Raiders for missions where you need extra dropship support. They are highly skilled, and their service, both combat and simple small things like good coffee, are EXCELLENT.

Edited by verybad, 05 February 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

trycksh0t, on 05 February 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

For the record, the armor values listed on Sarna are deceiving, as dropship armor is =/= the equivalent BattleMech armor. Converting to what the equivalent value would be if it were armor on a 'Mech, a Union carries 180 points on the nose and sides, and 100 points aft. Overlords carry 220 points in the nose, 210 on the sides, and 150 aft, and those are the old 3025 production values.

Your source?

According to TechManual (pg. 190-191):

Quote

The maximum amount of armor an aerospace unit may mount is based on the unit’s type and body shape (conventional fighter, aerospace fighter, aerodyne Small Craft/DropShip, or spheroid Small Craft/DropShip) as well as its weight and structural integrity. This value - applicable for Clan and Inner Sphere aerospace units - is shown in the Aerospace Unit Maximum Armor Levels Table below.

Regardless of what kind of armor the unit uses, aerospace units may not exceed their maximum point value (or armor tonnage for larger units). Note, however, that this value reflects the aerospace unit’s maximum total armor; the number of points assigned per location is left up to the designer’s discretion.

-----

Aerospace unit armor may be mounted in full- or half-ton lots. The amount of points each armor type provides per ton is shown in the Aerospace Armor Points Per Ton (Clan/Inner Sphere) Table (see p. 192). To determine the armor value provided by a given tonnage of armor, first find the armor’s proper Points per Ton value by cross-referencing the unit type and weight against the armor’s type on the Aerospace Armor Points per Ton Table.

-----

With the Points per Ton value determined, finding the amount of points provided for a given tonnage is a matter of multiplying that value by the desired tonnage of armor and then rounding the final result down to the nearest whole number. If the designer wants a specific number of armor points, he may simply divide that number of points by the armor type’s Points per Ton value and round the result up to the nearest half-ton.

For example, if an aerospace unit is to mount 5 tons of standard armor, the designer can multiply 5 by 16 to find the result (80 points). If, on the other hand, the designer wants 170 points of standard Inner Sphere ferro-aluminum armor, he should divide the armor value of 170 by 17.92 (Points per Ton value for standard Inner Sphere ferro-aluminum) to find the tonnage needed (9.5 tons; 170 ÷ 17.92 = 9.487, rounded up to 9.5).

-----

To reflect the added resiliency of their structural integrity, Small Craft and DropShips receive a bonus to their armor levels beyond the tonnage assigned to armor. This bonus adds the unit’s SI value to its armor levels per facing, so a DropShip with an SI of 10 would gain 10 armor points—beyond the amount purchased as armor—for each facing. This “bonus armor” is considered the same type of armor as installed on the unit, but takes up no armor tonnage, and so does not exceed the armor limits given for Small Craft and DropShip units.

Moreover (and perhaps most tellingly):
The above-referenced Armor Points per Ton Table (TechManual, pg. 192) states that spheroid IS Dropships in the 200-12,499 ton range (like the 9,700-ton Overlord and the 3,600-ton Union) receive 16 armor points per ton when using standard armor, which is identical to what is provided for BattleMechs ("Armor may be mounted in full- or half-ton lots, and provides a base amount of 16 points per ton of standard armor (8 points per half-ton)." - TechManual, pg. 54).

As such, I maintain that the Sarna values are probably correct and that the Overlord and Union are really that lightly-armored (though, they do make up for it, in part, by being rather heavily-armed)...

Your thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 05 February 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[verybad]

Heavy units like Dropships (and warships)are often described with the armor value divided by ten. This is a gameplay expedient, as some units can have THOUSANDS of armor points per facing. (The Leviathan has 10,000 battletech level points)
An Overlord carries 46 tons of armor, and it's armor points for facing is 220 nose, 210 sides, and 170 aft.

I'm more than familiar with Aerospace (the fighters and dropships and warships side to battletech.)

Capital damage is in tens of points, for instance a Heavy Naval PPC does 15 capital points, thats 150 battletech level points. It also weighs 3000 tons, nearly as much as a Union class dropship capable of carrying 12 mechs.

Edited by verybad, 05 February 2012 - 12:33 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

verybad, on 05 February 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

Heavy units like Dropships (and warships)are often described with the armor value divided by ten. This is a gameplay expedient, as some units can have THOUSANDS of armor points per facing. (The Leviathan has 10,000 battletech level points)
An Overlord carries 46 tons of armor, and it's armor points for facing is 220 nose, 210 sides, and 170 aft.

I'm more than familiar with Aerospace (the fighters and dropships and warships side to battletech.)

Capital damage is in tens of points, for instance a Heavy Naval PPC does 15 capital points, thats 150 battletech level points. It also weighs 3000 tons, nearly as much as a Union class dropship capable of carrying 12 mechs.

Okay, so I decided to cross-reference with Solaris7's entries for the Overlord and Union.

While Solaris7 cites one of the same sources as Sarna (specifically AeroTech 2), the former displays the larger values and the tonnage that verybad describes.

So, while I will state that while I disagree with this "gameplay expedient" (as it leads to issues like this - the actual values should always be listed in a standardized manner in references like Sarna and Solaris7 (and the sources they draw from), even if it requires scientific notation! >_<) and maintain that one armor point for a DropShip is equal to one armor point for a BattleMech (both, per TechManual, are 1/16 of one ton of standard armor, or the amount of other material needed for equivalent protection), I will now concede that trycksh0t and verybad are, in fact, correct on the matter of how many armor points the Overlord and Union DropShips mount.

[verybad]

It makes sense if you ever play the board game. Try and put several thousand damage points in checking off damage on a warships sheet and those checks have to be VERY, VERY small... Now there are 6 damage locations on a warship...You need more than one sheet.

I agree that it could be a bit confusing if your'e not familiar with the board game however.

[trycksh0t]

verybad, on 05 February 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

It makes sense if you ever play the board game. Try and put several thousand damage points in checking off damage on a warships sheet and those checks have to be VERY, VERY small... Now there are 6 damage locations on a warship...You need more than one sheet.

I agree that it could be a bit confusing if your'e not familiar with the board game however.

That about sums it up. The only reason I know those values off the top of my head is I've been into TT for the better part of 15 years. Confusion in regards to BT rules and regs, and how often they get swithced up, is to be expected. Heck, I still don't know what's actually going on half the time.

[Kraktzor]

trycksh0t, on 05 February 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

For the record, the armor values listed on Sarna are deceiving, as dropship armor is =/= the equivalent BattleMech armor. Converting to what the equivalent value would be if it were armor on a 'Mech, a Union carries 180 points on the nose and sides, and 100 points aft. Overlords carry 220 points in the nose, 210 on the sides, and 150 aft, and those are the old 3025 production values.

I recognize these values, they are the same listed in the 3057 Technical Readout for Dropships, Jumpships and Warships. All the armour values are given in Naval Scale (x10 to normal Batltemech scale) same with the weapon damages, which is why in the readout the smaller weapons are grouped in batteries.

Edited by Kraktzor, 22 February 2012 - 01:29 PM.