58 replies to this topic

[armitage]

I think its still a bit early to call something grindy when we don't even know how much xp will be gained for each action or how much is required to unlock each ability? Nor do we know anything about how matches are setup, that's a whole lot of grey area to base an assumption on. Regardless, I've played countless matches in previous mechwarrior games with no tangible gain so I really don't see a problem with having a grind out every last point of xp.

[Razed]

Yeah I'm with Armitage, it's a bit early to start using qualifiers like "horrible" considering they just released the first scraps of information about skill trees.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Free to Play and Grind Away -> Pay the Fee for Quick XP

[ManDaisy]

don't say I didn't warn ya when you get tired of only using one mech and end getting stuck in the "beginner" roles forever due to the modules you can access and the time it takes to unlock everything. Some of you make take this the wrong way even so I'll point this out. Its bad to be blindly devoted.

Edited by ManDaisy, 03 February 2012 - 06:44 PM.

[Glastyn]

First of all i want to say this: I think the Skill-System as of the recent DevBlog is, though only an Example, not suited for this Kind of Game(Simulation/Tactical Shooter, rather than emphasized on Action). Also i dislike the thought of an BT themed WoT clone.
I would propose the following Skill System that would allow both, a Learning Curve which doesnt predefine the better Player by accumulating the Skill-Points, and also a Role Specialization and Customization of a higher Degree:

First - The XP Distribution:
The XP you gain in a Battle is distributed as follows:
Role - You gain this by accomplishing Deeds of the specific Role (Spotting, Commanding, Assisting, etc.)
Mech - You gain this as a general Measure of Battle Performance. It is the Sum of the 4 Role XP Values.

After the Battle the Role XPs are awarded to their respective Tree.
The MechXP is awarded to the respective Mech while a small Portion (1%?) of it is awarded to all Mechs of the same Weightclass
The Pilot XP is made up of all RoleXP.

Second - Learning and Training Skills:
The Skills are compromised of two Parts each.
The Theoretical Knowledge
You just Unlock a certain Skill and by that access to any Module Mech or Technique tied to it. You now have full access to the funtionality of those Modules. Of Course Basic Modules like an AC10 should be available from the Start. Ill talk later about that.
Unlocking these Skills doesnt cost anything. Instead you only have a set Number of Unlockable Skills based on the total XP in the Tree.

The Practical Expertise
Here you spent your hard-earned XP to improve the Performance of whatever the Skill governs.
You dont need to spent anything in order to gain Access to Modules, though there is no Reason not to improve your Expertise.

Third - XP Degradation:
In Order to enforce Specialization and Decisionmaking XP will degrade. Not over Time but by specializing on other Aspects.
For every 10 XP gained in one Role you would lose 1 XP in the other 3.
For every 10 XP gained in one Weightclass you would lose 1 XP in the other 3.

While this Sounds awful at first i dont really mean that you LOSE the XP.
Rather you will accumulate a XP-Debt that you have to 'pay up to' before you gain any new XP.
If this Debt however raises too Large, a Penalty should be given to the Specific Skill Trees Skills.

The last important Matter that i want to talk about is the Availability of Support Fire.
Usually you acces a Skill that allows you to rain down Hell every so much Seconds with Certain Strength depending on your Skill-Level.
In every damn single Game.
Id rather make these Support Weapons scaled Map-Wise as the Number and Strength of the BigGuns doesnt magically change depending on who asks for help. Also the Cooldown should be Map-Wise so having multiple Commanders on the Team doesnt end up with an endless Artillary Barrage.
The Skills should, aside from giving initial Access to them, only increase the Accuracy and decrease the Time between asking for Help and finally getting it. If the Guns are ...reloading, you can ask as much as you want, you still have to w8 till they are ready.

I would also like not having Basic Modules like an AC10 or a Medium Pulse Laser being unlockable, but rather being accessible from the Start.
Plus id like to have a Skill for Performance Increase for every Module. Though Modules like ac5, ac10, ac20 etc should be grouped together.

i have even made a more thorough line-out of how id like the skilltrees, though for lack of technical background on what is actually going on in the game i wasnt able to complete that.

[MaddMaxx]

Draco Argentum, on 03 February 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

I'll take that as a given too. Its always like that because its the game's hook. For psychological reasons there have to be a bunch of rewards early.

The big problem with this is having to grind all variants before you can elite the variant you care about. Thats pretty silly.

Unless you get to select the variant you most care for as Mech variant 1.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 03 February 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[statler]

Rabbit Blacksun, on 03 February 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Grinding people ...

Its a cook book! its a cook book!

IF you think about it ... people have been "specializing" in mechs since it became a game, every one has that one favorite that they love ... Omigir has the cougar that he loves and almost always plays, I have the Owens that I love to play along with the kit fox (uller) and we know their speed their armor, their weaknesses strengths and how to play them, the big difference i can see is that now we get bonuses for playing those mechs that we love playing and play all the time. I dont really see what the complaint is about, and you know its going to change anyway, since it changed during the course of BT/MW history anyway.

i thought the bonus was knowing the mech well; that's were advantages come from. these xp based ones seem free to me, aside from a small pointless grind.

and when the grind is done, we wind up with the same game we should have started with. i dont understand the need to delay it with a leveling system, and limit peoples want to branch out to different mechs for fear of starting over somewhat. oh, and why would the devs want to try and balance a leveling system when they have more than enough to worry about balancing the "end game" or post leveling normal mech game.

[MaddMaxx]

statler, on 03 February 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

i thought the bonus was knowing the mech well; that's were advantages come from. these xp based ones seem free to me, aside from a small pointless grind.

and when the grind is done, we wind up with the same game we should have started with. i dont understand the need to delay it with a leveling system, and limit peoples want to branch out to different mechs for fear of starting over somewhat. oh, and why would the devs want to try and balance a leveling system when they have more than enough to worry about balancing the "end game" or post leveling normal mech game.

So a fight you would conduct anyways, now offers an XP bonus and a possible perk, it is suddenly not FUN?

How about I will kill everyone for FREE and the XP generated goes to the Mech as BONUS.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 03 February 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[ManDaisy]

I'm most concerned with XP getting in the way of role diversity and modules. If I have to cut thru a maze of bush, all the while getting stuff I dont want until I finally get to where I want to be for ever singly mech and much worse ever variant of that mech, I'll be pissed. Granted I am confident I'll be able to kick anyone's *** fresh without bonuses anyway its the potential for artificial barriers that ****** me off. And **** humanities, waste of tuition.

Edited by ManDaisy, 03 February 2012 - 07:15 PM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

But you don't have to grind at all, that's only if you insist on getting to those Elite tiers...
...And all those 5% plusses.

[MaddMaxx]

Lorcan Lladd, on 03 February 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

But you don't have to grind at all, that's only if you insist on getting to those Elite tiers...
...And all those 5% plusses.

and a Cosmetic reward.

[Nick Makiaveli]

ManDaisy, on 03 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

don't say I didn't warn ya when you get tired of only using one mech and end getting stuck in the "beginner" roles forever due to the modules you can access and the time it takes to unlock everything. Some of you make take this the wrong way even so I'll point this out. Its bad to be blindly devoted.

You are assuming you are right. It may not feel grindy when it comes down to it. What if it is so damn fun to play, that most of us don't even notice we are effectively grinding?

Have you never played just for the fun of playing? Or are you one of those must max out ASAP types?

[MaddMaxx]

You assume he is not. Who is right? lol

[Chuckie]

Razed, on 03 February 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Yeah I'm with Armitage, it's a bit early to start using qualifiers like "horrible" considering they just released the first scraps of information about skill trees.

Couldnt agree more.

A little soon to judge something you have only scraps of info and rumor to go on..

Edited by Chuckie, 03 February 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[ManDaisy]

Our goals should be to bicker and fight about everything we don't and do like. If everyone says great good idea without fleshing anything out then were gonna end up with a bag of fertilizer. So I'll judge all I want to prevent a stool from being so far hardened it becomes an immovable rock.

Edited by ManDaisy, 03 February 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[Halfinax]

I think you are slightly misinterpreting the system that the Devs have laid out ManDaisy. In order to be "Elite" with a chassis you have to master all the variants. You really have to know how each variant works in order to progress to the next level of knowledge with that chassis, and it really makes a lot of sense.

I can see where you are coming from though. If each variant has a different role for that chassis it does not make sense to have to learn every variant type, but I think the general 'Mech XP plays in.

[Draco Argentum]

MaddMaxx, on 03 February 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

Unless you get to select the variant you most care for as Mech variant 1.

No, reread the blog. You have to level all varients before you can get those elite levels.

[Insidious Johnson]

Other my self indulgent opinion on what I like about pvp, I am tending to side more with ManDaisy's take on it:

ManDaisy, on 03 February 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Well at leaset this is bringing up an important issue, if any aspect of the game makes it feel like work and not leisure then its a failed product.

Edited by Insidious Johnson, 03 February 2012 - 09:14 PM.

[Dlardrageth]

I'm honestly more concerned about the "skill tree" being too easy to "grind up". I wonder if it might be a workable solution to have a delay factor worked in. Meaning you have a real-time factor involved so people with no life that play MWO 23/7 have it all maxed out after a month. Which in the end would just lead to some sort of stagnation and thus possibly frustration.

I am not talking about skill training that would take years (EVE-O anyone?) to complete for one vehicle, but if a delay factor is implemented that allows only so many levels/XP to be acquired per wekk, that would make it a bit more interesting to set priorities for the players as well IMHO. And has been experienced before in other games that reaching the "top level" too fast is not necessarily a good thing. Psychological factors like "sense of achievement" etc. come into play there as well.

And with such auspices, I'd actually beokay with a certain degree of "grind". If it is implemented in a way that you cannot just "powerlevel" like a madman in a short period of time everything out.

[Blackfire1]

Even after reading all of that. I want to know what hidden psychic powers grand you the ability to know its going to be a "grind". Personally if its like LoL, grind is not what it means. This isn't wow. Dont mistake grind for learning curve.

Edited by Blackfire1, 03 February 2012 - 09:46 PM.