59 replies to this topic

[BOTA 49]

Lord Trogus, on 04 February 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

MW4 provided endless fun for almost ten years. "M$" did something right to account for that game's much deserved attention.

MW4 would have been dead by 2005 if it wasn't for Mektek.

[Trogusaur]

[EDMW]CSN, on 04 February 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Check the rules again.
All electronics.

That includes C3 systems, BAP, NARC, C3i, iNarc, Targeting Computers, Streak, Artemis even other ECM.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM

That is a pretty general description, quoting it's original context, "An Electronic Countermeasure (or ECM) Suite covers the area around the unit on which it is employed, disrupting sensors and communications. ECM Suites exist for BattleMechs, Battle Armor, Combat Vehicles, and AeroSpace Fighters."

That can be translated a number of ways. Full blocking could easily result in brawler domination if ECM is implemented the way you describe it.

Edited by Lord Trogus, 04 February 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[Trogusaur]

BOTA-49, on 04 February 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

MW4 would have been dead by 2005 if it wasn't for Mektek.

uh, mektek promoted it. I thank them for that. But they also added many things that broke gameplay further in my opinion. If you wish to contest this, I will provide evidence.

[FACEman Peck]

ManDaisy, on 04 February 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

Or perhaps by shooting the missiles down with lasers ppcs, guass slugs, autocannons and lastly machine guns.

Or you could just PRAY that the locked missiles don't hit you and cause a reactor core detonation that vaporizes everything within a certain range.

[EDMW CSN]

Lord Trogus, on 04 February 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

That is a pretty general description, quoting it's original context, "An Electronic Countermeasure (or ECM) Suite covers the area around the unit on which it is employed, disrupting sensors and communications. ECM Suites exist for BattleMechs, Battle Armor, Combat Vehicles, and AeroSpace Fighters." That can be translated a number of ways. Full blocking could easily result in brawler domination if ECM is implemented the way you describe it.

This is countered by the fact that ECM carrier actually has to be within range to be effective.

So if you spot a potential ECM carrier, your best bet is to put him down fast, because once within range of his ECM bubble, things start shutting down. Otherwise you counter with your own ECM carrier mechs. Those can work as ECCM as well

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 04 February 2012 - 09:32 PM.

[Trogusaur]

[EDMW]CSN, on 04 February 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

This is countered by the fact that ECM carrier actually has to be within range to be effective.

So if you spot a potential ECM carrier, your best bet is to put him down fast, because once within range of his ECM bubble, things start shutting down. Otherwise you counter with your own ECM carrier mechs. Those can work as ECCM as well

Very true. But if the enemy missleboat is outside the ECM user's radius (as any good missleboater would do to any enemy), how does that counteract BAP? How does that work to even protect oneself from the missles???

Honestly, I think the ECM/BAP interaction in MW4 was one thing Microsoft and Mektek did quite well.

Edited by Lord Trogus, 04 February 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[EDMW CSN]

Lord Trogus, on 04 February 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

Very true. But if the enemy missleboat is outside the ECM user's radius, how does that counteract BAP? How does that work to even protect oneself from the missles???

BAP once again, does not aid missile locks. So it won't matter.

Anyhow BAP has a shorter range than ECM anyway so a BAP user is always going to get jammed first. As for missiles, to put it bluntly if they are capped at 5 damage points per location for LRMs just as they were for the rules, they will not be grossly annoying in the first place (hence not needing this discussion to begin with).

ECM will only serve to nullify the use of electronics that make missiles so effective like the NARC and TAG. Streaks and other artemis IV boosted missile launchers will behave just like regular launchers.

And a regular LRM20 tends to hit only 12 out of 20 missiles, that is how inaccurate BT missiles are.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 04 February 2012 - 09:42 PM.

[Trogusaur]

[EDMW]CSN, on 04 February 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

BAP once again, does not aid missile locks. So it won't matter.

Anyhow BAP has a shorter range than ECM anyway so a BAP user is always going to get jammed first. As for missiles, to put it bluntly if they are capped at 5 damage points per location for LRMs just as they were for the rules, they will not be grossly annoying in the first place (hence not needing this discussion to begin with).

ECM will only serve to nullify the use of electronics that make missiles so effective like the NARC and TAG. Streaks and other artemis IV boosted missile launchers will behave just like regular launchers.

And a regular LRM20 tends to hit only 12 out of 20 missiles, that is how inaccurate BT missiles are.

Oic. I didn't quite get your last post. You said ECM mechs are detectable outside the jamming bubble.

Still, that leads to brawler domination, unfortunately. Even if not in effective range, what happens when the fast clan mechs show up? All the sudden, you have a plethora of mechs that can close in rapidly, undetected and wreak havoc from the inside. Any seasoned infighter will find a variant of even the IS mechs that mixes speed with the ECM.

Edited by Lord Trogus, 04 February 2012 - 09:48 PM.

[EDMW CSN]

Lord Trogus, on 04 February 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

Oic. I didn't quite get your last post. Still, that leads to brawler domination, unfortunately. Even if not in effective range, what happens when the fast clan mechs show up? All the sudden, you have a plethora of mechs that can close in rapidly, undetected and wreak havoc from the inside. Any seasoned infighter will find a variant that mixes speed with the ECM.

Ah that is when you get Battle Value for balancing. In this era, it is pretty common for just 5 clan mechs to face off against an entire companies of IS mechs.

As for fears against infighters mounting ECM, the logical counter is a mech with ECM to work as ECCM. Also ECM does not really shut off everything per se, it just that you lose most of your smart capabilities. For example your mech has a Targeting Computer but that guy managed to get in range with his ECM.

You lose the targeting bonus with the TC but that does not impair with your ability to fight as per normal. Unless there are optional rules and perks that allow experience Scout pilots with ECM to generate ghost targets... Then that is a REAL problem.

Also with Piranha mixing skills and modules into MWO. Certain ECM functions might not be available unless you are in a certain chassis. Who knows ?

[Trogusaur]

[EDMW]CSN, on 04 February 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Ah that is when you get Battle Value for balancing. In this era, it is pretty common for just 5 clan mechs to face off against an entire companies of IS mechs.

As for fears against infighters mounting ECM, the logical counter is a mech with ECM to work as ECCM. Also ECM does not really shut off everything per se, it just that you lose most of your smart capabilities. For example your mech has a Targeting Computer but that guy managed to get in range with his ECM.

You lose the targeting bonus with the TC but that does not impair with your ability to fight as per normal. Unless there are optional rules and perks that allow experience Scout pilots with ECM to generate ghost targets... Then that is a REAL problem.

Also with Piranha mixing skills and modules into MWO. Certain ECM functions might not be available unless you are in a certain chassis. Who knows ?

The possibilities are endless! I just would like a reasonably balanced game, and if one thing is focused on too much (ie: poptarting, or jump-missle combo) then other things like infighting or knockback weapons may be overlooked, then consequentially abused.

Edited by Lord Trogus, 04 February 2012 - 10:07 PM.

[Halfinax]

JJ should have no more effect on missile lock than moving. I.E. get behind cover or dodge at the last possible moment to avoid as many of those angry missiles as possible.

[ManDaisy]

Quote

Or you could just PRAY that the locked missiles don't hit you and cause a reactor core detonation that vaporizes everything within a certain range.

Sounds like a plan. Next time missiles come your way sit on your hands and do nothing.

Honestly, depending on the missile arch jumping up may be a horrible idea, like jumping into a ceiling fan. I agree with halfinax, jumping shouldn't do anything but move ya out of the correction range for missiles if you do it right.

[Sug]

ManDaisy, on 04 February 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

jumping shouldn't do anything but move ya out of the correction range for missiles if you do it right.

Since they's stated that even locked missiles will have a chance to miss the target I assume we wont be seeing the MW4 missiles that bypass the laws of physics to loop around the mech until they find a path to connect.

Going with that, I could understand how jumping could throw off some of the missiles and allow you to avoid some damage.

[Strum Wealh]

Lorcan Lladd, on 04 February 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Hrm, I would like to make a quick question...
...Is there any distinction between radar, thermal and optical tracking systems for missiles in BattleTech?
I think this would determine whether or not jump jets would mess with your missile lock.

Admittedly, I didn't see a direct answer to this question...


"Dead-Fire Missiles were prototype weapons developed by House Kurita to offset the increasing cost of military hardware. To reduce cost, the guidance systems of standard long range and short range missiles were removed and replaced with larger warheads."

"Anti-Radiation Missiles are special-purpose missiles which can be fired from SRMs, MMLs and LRMs. Similar to Listen-Kill Missiles, ARAD Missiles are able to home in on active electronic systems, however unlike L-K missiles they do not sacrifice their range or damage potential, and are not easily confused by ECM."

"Heat Seeking warheads are available for LRM, SRM, and MML launchers; They are incompatible with Artemis, Narc, and Streak guidance systems."

"Listen-Kill (aka L-K or LK) missile technology is an upgrade to missiles (both LRM and SRM) to improve their accuracy. This is achieved through a small computer and homing device in the missile's head that allows it to home in on the electronic noise of a BattleMech or tank."

All of the above seem to indicate that both SRMs and LRMs have a guidance system (probably RADAR based) in their standard rounds, and both SRMs and LRMs have alternative munitions that either exchange the standard guidance system for something more specialized, or remove it entirely (in the unique case of dead-fire missiles).

Also:
"Originally developed in 2647, the Streak SRM Launcher is relatively similar to the standard SRM launcher but linked to a unique Targa-7 fire control system. This system is designed to guarantee a hit against any target onto which the pilot can get a lock, a special feature of this system preventing the weapon from firing at a target when there is no lock-on, saving ammunition by preventing shots that would miss anyway."

The Streak system is not so much a guidance system as an ammo conservation system, forcing the launcher not to fire unless and until a missile lock is acquired and the missiles are certain (or, at least, nearly-certain) to hit.

Moreover, the Streak system isn't limited to SRMs - Streak LRM-5, LRM-10, LRM-15, and LRM-20 systems were developed by Clan Coyote in 3057.

[Youdu]

Waiting in hope.

[Sug]

Can't remember if I read this in a sourcebook or a short story in that 25th Anniversary book...

There were these missiles called Headhunters that would home in on the cockpit of the targeted mech. I believe the story stated that all factories and stockpiles were destroyed much like how the Exterminator mechs were hunted to extinction.

[BOTA 49]

Lord Trogus, on 04 February 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

uh, mektek promoted it. I thank them for that. But they also added many things that broke gameplay further in my opinion. If you wish to contest this, I will provide evidence.

Your opinion is just that - your opinion. Although I do agree that they broke a few things in a few ways, they did add a LOT to the game, and their additions are what kept it running. Without the MP packs MW4 would have been dead long, long ago instead of stringing about for the last decade.

[Solis Obscuri]

Sidewinder619, on 04 February 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

I apologise if this has been brought up before but I am curious if a mech with jump can disrupt a missile lock? I am not sure if Streak missiles are available in 3049 but could a pilot possibly break line of sight by jumping and evade incoming salvos?

Sure, if you jump over a ridge or behind a building.

In the open, fast movement like jumping or a fast running speed should make you a little more difficult to track, but not impossible.

[renegade mitchell]

Sidewinder619, on 04 February 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

I apologise if this has been brought up before but I am curious if a mech with jump can disrupt a missile lock? I am not sure if Streak missiles are available in 3049 but could a pilot possibly break line of sight by jumping and evade incoming salvos?

Yeah it will with weapons convergence.

[Yeach]

This reminds me of MW3 where you needed a minimum speed of 81 kph (or so) so that by moving that fast LRMs COULD miss you entirely.