58 replies to this topic

[yngvef]

I just realised that I've been playing MW4 and reading about BT too much this weekend:
I was going to work and the outside temperature was about -29C (-20F)... And all I could think of was: This would be great Battlemech-weather. I could easily slap on an extra pulse laser here.

That made me think about MWO: I hope the maps will be diverse, with temperature spanning from "Pluto" to "Hell", because it will force completely different gameplay... provided that heat management still is a highly important issue in this game.

I actually hope that heat management is as deep and complex as it should be. Heatsinks, coolant flush, ambient temperatures, standing in water, exposed to wind, forest fires... All these things should have a tactical effect in the game.

A map should have different temperatures at different places, unlike in MW4 where the entire map is the same. Sun and shade should have different effect, as well as altitude. It will never be the same temperature on a 100 m (300ft) tall hill, as it is in the valley next to it.

And you should have a temperature gauge inside the cockpit that shows you both 'mech AND ambient temperature (or even "effective temperature" if it is windy).

I haven't found anything definite about how this will be handled in MWO, but if I missed it, please tell me

What do you think? How difficult/complex should heat management be in MWO?

[Mchawkeye]

I agree with everything except coolant flush.

Heat managemant is one of those core principles/gimmicks of the franchise that was always just a little to simplistic for my tastes; the terrain should create strategic points for better management (like lakes and what not). It should be complex and integral to the simulation as a whole.
heat should be generated from all sorts of activity, from walking to running to jumping to firing weapons, and it should have the same detrimental effects on your mech as the Kelvins increase.


Coolant flush, on the other hand, just a poorly implemented idea that opens the world up to badness. not for coolant flush at all; to much potential for laser boats to uber themselves.

[Mason Grimm]

I think atmosphere evironmental effects will come in to play. I can't remember where but one of the Devs mentioned he couldn't shoot at someone in a recent playtest because the glare from the sun was blinding him visually.

Heat management has always been such a major part of the battletech universe that I doubt anyone in todays day and age (and computer technology) would release a game without it. Ya know? I would image it wouldn't be too difficult for this group fo consumate professionals (and Canadians I might add) to implement something like this based upon map and other effects.

Edited by Mason Grimm, 06 February 2012 - 07:23 AM.

[Opus]

Mchawkeye, on 06 February 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

I agree with everything except coolant flush.

Heat managemant is one of those core principles/gimmicks of the franchise that was always just a little to simplistic for my tastes; the terrain should create strategic points for better management (like lakes and what not). It should be complex and integral to the simulation as a whole.
heat should be generated from all sorts of activity, from walking to running to jumping to firing weapons, and it should have the same detrimental effects on your mech as the Kelvins increase.


Coolant flush, on the other hand, just a poorly implemented idea that opens the world up to badness. not for coolant flush at all; to much potential for laser boats to uber themselves.

But you can only do it so many times, aka in a sustained battle, Uberlaser boaters, will end up dead...

[CoffiNail]

No to Coolant Flush as well. Been playing MWLL for almost two years now. At one point a player made a 'modded' server which removed coolant. IMO This made MWLL 10x better. You had to play the heat managaement game that you do not play with Coolant. With Coolant you hit the red line, Betty states shutdown is imminent, so you spam the coolant key. No, no, not how it should be done! You must have to think is it worth shooting off that alpha strike, bringing your cockpit to swealtering levels of heat and maybe get that final death blow, or do you chain fire those lasers and ppc, control your firing and not shut down, or over heat.

Coolant takes away a huge part of what made MW2 fun. It is damn stressful at times waiting for your heat levels to lower, while having to dodge incoming fire until your mech cools down enough you can toss out that PPC again.

No Coolant. Unless you take extra tons in a config to give you a coolant pod or something, with a couple shots in it. Sure. But Coolant like MW4 or MWLL no thanks.

[Mchawkeye]

Opus, on 06 February 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

But you can only do it so many times, aka in a sustained battle, Uberlaser boaters, will end up dead...

yes...but it still dramatically alters a core tenant of the game, and the potential for tactical depth is, I think, significantly improved with out it.

[CoffiNail]

LEt me also toss in my experiences. I am someone, when given coolant runs the redline so much, I have in official unit vs unit scrimms died because I over heated my mech. I am just so use to being able to tap C for coolant and not having to worry. This really does suck, and takes away from gameplay. Coolant just does not work for MW.

[Kenyon Burguess]

another idea is that players can perform a flush but it will cost them a stiff fine for the destruction done to the civilian population and enviroment. combine that wil a limit s to how many times in a match it could be done would make players think twice before using it.

Edited by Geist Null, 06 February 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[Opus]

CoffiNail, on 06 February 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

LEt me also toss in my experiences. I am someone, when given coolant runs the redline so much, I have in official unit vs unit scrimms died because I over heated my mech. I am just so use to being able to tap C for coolant and not having to worry. This really does suck, and takes away from gameplay. Coolant just does not work for MW.

I've been playing MW for damn near 20 years now from TT to MW4 ( somebody message me how to get MW:LL going and I'll join you there too),

I digress: Coolant was an odd ball in MW4, fun, but even on online play it never saved you, or made you Uber ( f'ing WOW references need to stop - next ting some clown on here will say "Leet", I'll crawl through the web to choke his azz out )

But again I digress: coolant or not - the environment plays everything into your choices for combat. In TT play, the variables on heat will kiil you faster than the enemy.

I am indifferent to coolant flush, because it is not the deciding fact in One on One combat

Edited by Opus, 06 February 2012 - 08:16 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

I suppose some sort of coolant management could be implemented, it just needs to be done carefully.
A "coolant flush" obviously refers to the coolant being drained and replaced by a reserve. Where does that reserve come from? What happens to the drained coolant?

For example, I could imagine a variant of coolant flush where you receive an immediate heat drop - with the tradeoff of a permanent (well, for the duration of the match) reduction in maximum heat tolerance, simply because you have fewer coolant than before. So essentially you'd have to choose between an emergency vent to gain a short boost whilst keeping in mind that this will hamper your weapon efficiency for the remainder of the battle.

Just an idea off the top of my head.

As for weather conditions, I don't think this will play any part in the game. It would be realistic and certainly a nice detail, but it's the kind of stuff that game developers tend to forego due to a focus on more important assets.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 06 February 2012 - 08:22 AM.

[WMC Gomez]

I am not a fan of coolent flush. I agree with Mchawkeye that coolant flush does take away from the heat management aspect of the game.

If however the Devs feel they have to implement it, then I would like to see a one flush system. You get to flush coolant once per match, but when you do you damage your entire mech coolant system and heat sinks. So when you have to repair your mech it would cost more to repair it (say an additional 25% more) and if you didn't have the c-bills to repair then your heatsinks run at only 75% until you can get it fixed.

I know that would make me think hard about flushing coolant.

[Felicitatem Parco]

2 points:

1.) Coolant Flush = MechWarrior Coolant Flush is dumping a portion of your hot coolant and replacing it with cold coolant that you have squirreled away in a canister. This is different from BattleTech Coolant Flush where you park your Mech next to a Coolant Truck and they flush it wil liquid nitrogen to chill it rapidly in the heat of conflict.

2.) Mason Grimm mentioned a playtest with glaring sunlight, and this is non-canon because BattleMechs have self-tinting cockpit glass. I heard of this because I got flamed hard in a thread where I mentioned that Bright, Blinding Flares could be an interesting in-game weapon.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 06 February 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[Mchawkeye]

Prosperity Park, on 06 February 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

2.) Mason Grimm mentioned a playtest with glaring sunlight, and this is non-canon because BattleMechs have self-tinting cockpit glass. I heard of this because I got flamed hard in a thread where I mentioned that Bright, Blinding Flares could be an interesting in-game weapon.

Hmmmm....module to enable screen tint/make tint faster?

[BarHaid]

Yeah, you did beat up a bit on that, but it made me rethink it too. If the cockpit can protect your eyes from a laser, it should be able to compensate for sun glare.

Or...

If the cockpit is dimming for sun (or laser, or flares ), it makes everything else that much darker. Now you're fighting in the dead of night (from your perspective). That could make the magscan module effective for more than just peeking through buildings; it allows you to still fight when blinded.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Well, it's now an Open Topic for public discussion in the Suggestions section; I put up a poll.


Anywho, I did like the coolant flush idea for MechWarrior, but they provided too much coolant for use. I think any kind of coolant-flush performed in the field by a Mech should be just enough to avoid completely shutting down when you overheat.. once.

The "rules" give players a small boost to HeatSink efficiency when standing in water, but that boost is lower than the boost that would be provided in reality. Air is a poor thermal transfer medium, whereas water is very good in comparison. The difference in cold air and warm air would be little - think about it - the temperature of freezing water is 273K, room temperature is 295K, boiling water is 373K, and overheating Mechs go into the thousands of K. The difference between a Hot Mech and a cold planet at freezing temperature is almost the same as the difference between a Hot Mech and a hot planet with boiling water vapor as the primary gas, it's just 100K difference out of thousands.

The 3 biggest Heatsink efficiency modifiers should be wind (because that whisks away hot air from your heatsink surfaces), water (because it transfers heat many, many times faster than air), and atmospheric pressure (because that determines how much air is present to perform heat exchange).

Edited by Prosperity Park, 06 February 2012 - 09:32 AM.

[CoffiNail]

BarHaid, on 06 February 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Yeah, you did beat up a bit on that, but it made me rethink it too. If the cockpit can protect your eyes from a laser, it should be able to compensate for sun glare.

Or...

If the cockpit is dimming for sun (or laser, or flares ), it makes everything else that much darker. Now you're fighting in the dead of night (from your perspective). That could make the magscan module effective for more than just peeking through buildings; it allows you to still fight when blinded.

IIRC Star Commander Joanna, from the Jade Pheonix trilogy, I am Jade Falcon novels, During book 2 of the JP trilogy Joanna comments on how she prefers to have her cockpit more opaque and tends to rely on her sensor readings, etc to pilot and combat mechs.

[Outlaw2]

Coolant flush does take away from the heat management game....and turns into flush bar managment which is not as interesting. In MW4 it trivialized heat managment.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 06 February 2012 - 09:32 AM.

[Marvin Martian]

Prosperity Park, on 06 February 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

1.) Coolant Flush = MechWarrior Coolant Flush is dumping a portion of your hot coolant and replacing it with cold coolant that you have squirreled away in a canister. This is different from BattleTech Coolant Flush where you park your Mech next to a Coolant Truck and they flush it wil liquid nitrogen to chill it rapidly in the heat of conflict.

WMC Gomez, on 06 February 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

I am not a fan of coolent flush. I agree with Mchawkeye that coolant flush does take away from the heat management aspect of the game.

If however the Devs feel they have to implement it, then I would like to see a one flush system. You get to flush coolant once per match, but when you do you damage your entire mech coolant system and heat sinks.

CoffiNail, on 06 February 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

No Coolant. Unless you take extra tons in a config to give you a coolant pod or something, with a couple shots in it. Sure. But Coolant like MW4 or MWLL no thanks.

In Classic Battletech, coolant flushing systems were in the advanced rules. I don't remember exactly how it worked - its been over 10 years - but the gist was it was a system that cost you tonnage and critical space. It could only be used a limited number of times (once as I recall), and I believe you could critically hit it, causing damage to the mech. It balanced it so you only used it in an emergency, but also at the risk of being damaged by it.

Here are coolant pods on sarna. I think they work similarly to what I remember.

[Philipe von Rohrs]

I see no issues with Coolant Pods as a method to get a quick heat reduction, they are expensive and take up valuable Heatsink/Weapon space so the choice is yours. But IIRC, the Clans invented them, and in the "future"...

I am also perfectly happy to have to adapt my gighting style to match the environment. Adds to the fun!

[Naughtyboy]

Correct me if im wrong..but coolant flushes is made by techs in either a field mechbay or by driving up a coolant truck and connect it to the mechs coolant vents(time consuming and risky(sitting duck)).

Not sure if this belongs here..but the option too shut off heatsinks should be a part of the game, i know pilots with MASC systems like that to keep a high heat level for their MASC to work witout the need to blast off weapons all over.