78 replies to this topic

[Roughneck45]

Naduk, on 10 February 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

firing all your missiles simultaneously sounds like a bad idea to me, terrible terrible things would happen if something were to cause a missile to missile collision as they are exiting your launch tubes (strong winds perhaps?)

if they included cluster fire as a option i cant say i would ever use it
multi launching ....it just looks way to cool

grr stupid embeding , skip to 1:16 for the juicy bits

it should look exactly like this, mw2 style. it was scary getting hit by those things. one thud could be any weapon, but getting hit by multiple missiles was always distinctive and awesome.

[trycksh0t]

I have never gotten over my love affair with MW2 missile racks. Hitting the firing stud and watching 40 individual death bringers fly into your target was amazing. The missile cloud from MW3 just didn't have that same feel, and just looked silly. The groups in MW4 weren't bad, but still didn't capture the feeling of godliness, and also made AMS way too good, because it killed 5 LRMs at once. The individual launch also makes more sense for indirect fire, as individual missiles could take a slightly different trajectory as soon as the main boosters kicked in in order to really saturate an area, as opposed to them all launching together and then dispersing in mid-flight.

[DarkReaver]

Roughneck45, on 10 February 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

it should look exactly like this, mw2 style. it was scary getting hit by those things. one thud could be any weapon, but getting hit by multiple missiles was always distinctive and awesome.

Missile racks from Catapult i remember from MW2 & 3 is scaring enough. hope to see multiple clusters of missiles from LongBow or Spartan which 2 x 40 LRM could chew any Light mech to pieces / etc. pile of twisted metals .

[headonfire]

MaddMaxx, on 10 February 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

If ammo is to be a concern, then having the ability to ripple fire your missiles would be good as well. At close to min range, fire off 2 missiles, see what they enemy does, or reacts to them, then pump the bunger full with the other 8/13/18.

THIS is a really good idea. That may give their AMS a chance to shoot down more of your missiles, but it could also prevent a lot of misses, as well as keep your target constantly guessing when your gonna nail them next if you fire in bursts

[Ghost73]

Naduk, on 10 February 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

firing all your missiles simultaneously sounds like a bad idea to me, terrible terrible things would happen if something were to cause a missile to missile collision as they are exiting your launch tubes (strong winds perhaps?)

They somehow manage to keep 100 tons of steel on two legs from falling over while running over rocky terrain, but they can't keep a cluster of missiles from running into each other? Give me a break...

Naduk, on 10 February 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

if they included cluster fire as a option i cant say i would ever use it
multi launching ....it just looks way to cool

Have you actually seen the old trailer with the Atlas and Warhammer? Watch the part where the Atlas fires all of the missiles simultaneously from its chest. Pretty awesome if you ask me.

Edited by Ghost73, 11 February 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[Naduk]

believe it or not ghost there are forces at work that are out side of human control ... even in a sci-fi environment
a simple thing like high wind could cause a missile cluster all manner of issues
then you also need to think about other variables , non-earth gravitys, extreme temperatures, atmospheric density's
dirty launch tubes, particle storms(ice,sand), poor mech maintenance, mech damage, cheapest manufacturer syndrome... the list of minute things that could be the cause of a catastrophe is endless

the complexity of missiles only increase with size too

even still i wasn't trying to argue against cluster fire
i was only saying its something i would never do given the choice

Edited by Naduk, 11 February 2012 - 07:00 PM.

[Cyote13]

Now these are missile, well ok ok ok, rockets since they are unguided.
But even these 220 mm rockets are fired relatively quickly, in pairs every half second for a 30 rocket salvo in 7.5 seconds.
These would be closer to Arrow missiles, except for the warhead design.

enjoy
http://youtu.be/3wl0oe8by2c


http://www.military-...illery/tos1.htm

ps one of these days I will figure out how to get the video embedded

Edited by Cyote13, 11 February 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[Naduk]

wow that is some amazing footage
watched it about 5 times

[SilentObserver]

I actually figured it would look more like this:



The first few launches are hellfire missles.

The first Rocket launch in at about 17 seconds. Those are ripple fired rockets. Just very quick ripples. This is how i imagine a Mech missle launchers working.

[Ghost73]

Naduk, on 11 February 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

believe it or not ghost there are forces at work that are out side of human control ... even in a sci-fi environment
a simple thing like high wind could cause a missile cluster all manner of issues
then you also need to think about other variables , non-earth gravitys, extreme temperatures, atmospheric density's
dirty launch tubes, particle storms(ice,sand), poor mech maintenance, mech damage, cheapest manufacturer syndrome... the list of minute things that could be the cause of a catastrophe is endless

the complexity of missiles only increase with size too

even still i wasn't trying to argue against cluster fire
i was only saying its something i would never do given the choice

So... you are telling me the first half of your post does not consist entirely of arguments against cluster fire?
lol, ok
(not to mention they could all be applied to firing just a single missile)

[Sky Blue Boy]

Indirect fire, spotting and limitations on firing LRMs at short range PLEASE.

[Yeach]

Actually one question that I want to be resolved is LRM range.
At 21 hex / 630 m for Long range and (28 hex / 840 m for extreme range) that is pretty short duration for getting lock and firing/travel time to target (since some people establish that missiles have travel time http://mwomercs.com/...missile-speeds/ )

Now lets say the opposing mech is rushing towards you.
With mechs traveling from 15 m/s (Atlas) to 33m/s (Jenner), thats about 42 secs to 19 secs (avg 26 seconds) that you need to have a lock on target; i would think that would be insufficient time for a scout to easily have a solution for indirect fire via TAG.

[UncleKulikov]

Firebrand, on 10 February 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

Personally, I think that missiles shouldn't leave their holding rack or tubes at full speed, because it means that they have to generate inertia within the missile bay, which is a waste of missile fuel, and also increases internal explosions.

Compare missile launch:
()

with 'cannon' fire:
()

I'm afraid that will complicate networking. Instead of simply having a missile with a constant speed value, it would need an acceleration and constantly check that new value every time rays were drawn to that missile.

[MaddMaxx]

Yeach, on 12 February 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Actually one question that I want to be resolved is LRM range.
At 21 hex / 630 m for Long range and (28 hex / 840 m for extreme range) that is pretty short duration for getting lock and firing/travel time to target (since some people establish that missiles have travel time http://mwomercs.com/...missile-speeds/ )

Now lets say the opposing mech is rushing towards you.
With mechs traveling from 15 m/s (Atlas) to 33m/s (Jenner), that's about 42 secs to 19 secs (avg 26 seconds) that you need to have a lock on target; i would think that would be insufficient time for a scout to easily have a solution for indirect fire via TAG.

For the first part, those figure for Missile speed is RL, not MWO in game. No word on that yet. But yes, assuming a 2-3s lock on time, flight time out to max range would be 1-1.75s. Not gonna happen. No need for a warning system if you fire, the alarm sounds and 1s later you take a face full. I would expect flight times to be .5 or .35 slower than listed for RL.

As for the second part, given TAG has a max. range of 450m, an Atlas TAGGED at max range would take 16s to get to the Tagger. Even with .5 flight times of noted RL, a volley of LRM's would only take less than 2-3 seconds to impact the Atlas (in this case). Given a Cat is the Firee, said Atlas would eat 2 Full flights before reaching the Tagger, who would obviously be running away after the second flight lands.

P.S. This assumes I read your post correctly of course.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 13 February 2012 - 10:19 AM.

[Yeach]

MaddMaxx, on 13 February 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

For the first part, those figure for Missile speed is RL, not MWO in game. No word on that yet. But yes, assuming a 2-3s lock on time, flight time out to max range would be 1-1.75s. Not gonna happen. No need for a warning system if you fire, the alarm sounds and 1s later you take a face full. I would expect flight times to be .5 or .35 slower than listed for RL.

As for the second part, given TAG has a max. range of 450m, an Atlas TAGGED at max range would take 16s to get to the Tagger. Even with .5 flight times of noted RL, a volley of LRM's would only take less than 2-3 seconds to impact the Atlas (in this case). Given a Cat is the Firee, said Atlas would eat 2 Full flights before reaching the Tagger, who would obviously be running away after the second flight lands.

P.S. This assumes I read your post correctly of course.

I'm not sure. You also have to keep in mind that as a scout mech you want to be outside the 270 m range of AC20 of the Atlas which leaves you with 180 m (450 m TAG range - 270 m AC20 range) which leaves you about 12 seconds or so for locking on.

I think 12 seconds abit short. 2 seconds locking and 10 seconds to escape?

[Naduk]

im not sure having TAG would matter
if you can see the Atlas to TAG him, you can just lock him instead with your own missiles

however if you are Tagging this Atlas with the intent of Allies hitting it with missiles
surely you would want to be doing so undetected
if that atlas spots you, hanging around and hoping friendly missiles are on their way already sounds like a bad idea

either way , we wont really know how this situation plays out until we get our hands on the game

[trycksh0t]

Yeach, on 13 February 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

I'm not sure. You also have to keep in mind that as a scout mech you want to be outside the 270 m range of AC20 of the Atlas which leaves you with 180 m (450 m TAG range - 270 m AC20 range) which leaves you about 12 seconds or so for locking on.

I think 12 seconds abit short. 2 seconds locking and 10 seconds to escape?

A TAG equipped scout 'Mech would have no problem whatsoever keeping outside AC/20 range. A TAGer is going to keep moving while keeping his target painted, not stand around like and beg for an AC/20 in the face. Scouts will always be priority target number 1 for me, because they are the single most destructive unit in an engagement.

[MaddMaxx]

Yeach, on 13 February 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

I'm not sure. You also have to keep in mind that as a scout mech you want to be outside the 270 m range of AC20 of the Atlas which leaves you with 180 m (450 m TAG range - 270 m AC20 range) which leaves you about 12 seconds or so for locking on.

I think 12 seconds abit short. 2 seconds locking and 10 seconds to escape?

I was kinda hoping to sneak up behind said Atlas while he is seeking AC20 targets in the other direction.

[MaddMaxx]

Naduk, on 13 February 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

im not sure having TAG would matter
if you can see the Atlas to TAG him, you can just lock him instead with your own missiles

however if you are Tagging this Atlas with the intent of Allies hitting it with missiles
surely you would want to be doing so undetected
if that atlas spots you, hanging around and hoping friendly missiles are on their way already sounds like a bad idea

either way , we wont really know how this situation plays out until we get our hands on the game

A Scout would not like be carrying LRM's of any large caliber though. An LRM5/10, perhaps, but then why would you want to **** off an Atlas for little gain. Whereas your Catapult buddy(s) could really send in the hurt.

The keeping a TAG on while moving brings up an interesting thought though. If you TAG a Mech, and Missiles are in the air, what happens if the TAG moves off the target, and could you move it to another target before the Missiles arrive?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 14 February 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[Razed]

Depending on where the new target is I'd say logically you could redirect the LRMs to it within a certain arc.