Many members here don't know what are these Unseen and Reseen people talk about. Let's clear it out.
Unseen: are mech designs (drawings) from the very beginning of the Battletech. They look like mechs used in some anime shows and were removed from the Battletech after several legal problems.
Reseen: are new drawings for those mechs (from the Technical Readout: Project Phoenix), exclusive for Battletech. They don't have any legal issue but depart from the original designs. Some are cool, some are uninspired, some are just ugly (I'm looking at you, Shadow Hawk).
Say hello to our little friends:
Old Battletech players love the Unseen. They played a lot with them, they have their miniatures. For these players, the "face" of Battletech is the Unseen, so it's natural if they want these designs in MWO.
The problem is: PGI can't use the Unseen because of the concrete risk of a law suit that would jeopardize the entire MWO project (apparently, the use of a semi-Unseen Warhammer in the trailer was one of the reasons for MW5 being canceled).
So, what do you think? Are you OK with PGI adding the Reseen designs? Or you will accept nothing but the old & gold Unseen?
*** EDIT: The Battlemaster, Thunderbolt, Wolverine, Griffin, Shadow Hawk and Locust are Unseen, but never had legal problems. These are mechs from different shows (not Macross): Dougram and Crusher Joe. That's why they were included in MWO (Project Phoenix), even if with slightly changed visuals (OK, Locust changed a lot). The Macross Unseen would still need a major visual review to be in the game.
Well, and it looks like the Ost-mechs (Ostsol, Ostroc and Ostscout) are not unseen anymore (they feature with their original arts in the recent Record Sheets 3039 Unabridged book (the other Macross unseen show only the silhouette). ***
If you dig into legal details, here is some good reading:
Spoiler
empath, on 31 August 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:
FWIW, as a BattleDroids player, I will say most of the Original Fourteen are really sub-par designs with muddled loadouts (Shadow Hawk aka "Jack of all Ranges, Master of None" anyone?)
If I were involved with IGP/PGI, I would ONLY consider delving into such risky waters to include these designs in this F2P MMO would be with expressed written permission from Harmony Gold that the artwork we would use is not in infringement of their licensing of Studio Nue's artwork. Ironically, said permission could only be obtained by SUBMITTING FD's reworked art to HarmGold, and opening PGI/IGP up to a potential cease & desist from HG.
Also, the amount of misinformation regarding this whole legal mess makes me sad.
Okay:
1) Studio Nue creates artwork for some giant robots in preparation for use in some still-undefined animated show, 2) FASA, needing artwork of giant robots (and this being the '80s the ONLY source is Japan), licenses the artwork for "creation and advertising of model kits in the United States" through a now-defunct intermediary, Twentieth Century Imports, 3) Studio Nue creates Super Dimension Fortress Macross, using the artwork in #1 - in exchange for financial assistance during its creation, S.Nue signs over ALL international licensing of SDF Macross to Tatsunoko Production {this is where it gets interesting} 4) a. 1984-Harmony Gold licenses SDF Macross (as well as two other unrelated Studio Nue anime shows) from Tatsunoko for USA distribution, 4) b. 1984-FASA seeks to expand their license through TCI...and nothing seems to get done by the latter before they end up closing shop, 5) HG frankensteins the three shows together to create Robotech, 6) HG dominates - ****, CREATES - the fledgling US anime market with its flagship property, 7) FASA grows its BattleTech property beyond its licensed origins, and the Clan Invasion introduces a major change to the in-game milieu with in-house art and designs, 8) FASA begins to consider diversifying beyond the boardgame (and associated rulebooks and storyline novels), and enters talks with Playmates Toys about creating spin-off products based on BattleTech's Clan 'Mechs, 9) Playmates thinks things over, then turns FASA down, 10) 1993 - Playmates works with Universal Cartoon Studios to 'get an American share' of the Japanese anime market, and releases EXO Squad...including some artwork and toy designs that BLATANTLY infringe on FASA's Clan 'Mechs, 11) 1993 - FASA files suit against Playmates, 12) Playmates already has business dealings with Harmony Gold and latter notices similarities between old BT designs and designs from SDF MacrossRobotech 13) 1995 - Harmony Gold files suit against FASA regarding the dubious status of FASA's licensing Studio Nue's artwork, 14) Playmates moves for the suit lodged against them by FASA be reassigned and consolidated with HG's suit against FASA, 15) legal shennangians (motions to change venue for suit, appeals to higher courts, etc.) go on for many, many billable hours, before getting denied, 16) 1996 - Judge Castillo in original suit of FASA v. Playmates finds in FASA's favour, and orders Playmates to cease production and sale of the offending products...and attaches NO financial compensation to/from either party, 14) both Playmates and FASA are left financially weakened after this lawsuit, 16) FASA, gun-shy after getting shafted and placed in a crippling fiscal state from winning a three-year court battle, and looking down the barrels of ANOTHER lawsuit which does NOT look like a 'cut and dried' win for them, panics and purges ALL out-of-house artwork (including non-Studio Nue artwork like Crusher Joe and Dougram), 17) FASA takes Harmony Gold into closed meetings to settle matters out-of-court, 18) No one involved says JACK about this settlement.
That's essentially everything up to about 2003, with Operation Phoenix and the Reseen.
Also of note: that fun stuff regarding 'illegitimate' licenses going from Studio Nue -> ??? -> TCI -> FASA?
Around 2002, Japanese courts ruled that FASA was in the right...and to clearly illustrate the quagmire that the legal system is, this ruling has NO bearing on any legal proceedings in the U.S. or anywhere else outside Japan.
tl;dr? Anything involving lawyers is going to leave you broke, even if you win. Right, Gwyd?
PS: personally, I find the Reseen Marauder ultra sexy. Rifleman is also very good, Archer is OK, but the Warhammer is kind of weak.
Edited by Odanan, 10 February 2016 - 03:20 PM. updated the images
LocationIf there's a bright center to the universe, I'm on the planet that it's farthest from
Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:27 AM
I would support adding the reseen or unseen. I think some mechs look better in the reseen drawing, some in the unseen. But to me, the important thing is to have a Marauder, Warhammer, Rifleman, Archer, Wolverine, etc.
I just want to fight against Marauders. It's my deep-down secret hope for Mech 16 -- a reseen MAD to confuse our targeting computers when we make initial contact with the Mad Cat.
I prefer the reseen primarily because I don't wanna see this game fall into any legal trouble,simple as that.
NPComplete, on 28 August 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:
But to me, the important thing is to have a Marauder, Warhammer, Rifleman, Archer, Wolverine, etc.
I voted as preferring the Un-seen, but accepting the Re-seen. I do feel that it is a moot point, however. The only real difference is in appearance. Why is that moot? The redesigned mechs we've seen so far are simply brilliant! None look exactly like the old miniatures I spent so many hours painting while deployed around the Pacific Ocean. I feel that whatever this team would do with them would only be an improvement on either design.
Namesarestupid, yes, there was not only the marauder but most of the unseen where added later in mW4: mercenaries. thing is, they where added only when mektek stated modding the game.
Mektek does not officialy own mw4: mercenaries, but the company that owns the copyrights (don't remember if its microsoft or someone else) gave then a guarrantee that they would not sue then for modding the game as long as they encourage people who download the mods to acquire the original (though nowadays it's near impossible to find a retail copy of the original).
Community feel free to correct me if wrote down something wrong or stupid. am posting as i known it.
LocationRussian Death Legion, Golden Lion lance lieutenant
Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:55 AM
Czardread, on 28 August 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:
Namesarestupid, yes, there was not only the marauder but most of the unseen where added later in mW4: mercenaries. thing is, they where added only when mektek stated modding the game.
Mektek does not officialy own mw4: mercenaries, but the company that owns the copyrights (don't remember if its microsoft or someone else) gave then a guarrantee that they would not sue then for modding the game as long as they encourage people who download the mods to acquire the original (though nowadays it's near impossible to find a retail copy of the original).
Community feel free to correct me if wrote down something wrong or stupid. am posting as i known it.
What the **** am i reading?
MekPak was not a commercial product and therefore harmony gold couldn't sue them.
Else the **** would storm every TT player with an unseen miniature and sue sites hosting unseen pictures.
Such is the nature of envy.
Trickster Fox, on 28 August 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:
Neither. The dev's have done stated way back before the beta even came out that they will not be added. Plus they are ugly as shart anyway.
Unseen or reseens? Not adding any of aforementioned mechs is rather stupid as they are only IS direct-fire heavy boats.
Edited by Razor Kotovsky, 28 August 2012 - 05:59 AM.
Trickster Fox, on 28 August 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:
Neither. The dev's have done stated way back before the beta even came out that they will not be added. Plus they are ugly as shart anyway.
I dont believe there has been an officail statement made either way yet.
Until then I still believe this Q. Will the unseen Mechs make it into the game after all?
I agree with Bogsveigir. < sleight irony on >
But I would prefer the Unseen not to be added if there are massive problems with copyrights and such greedy malevolent things like companys beeing touchy about some conceps that are nearly 30 years old.
<irony of>
Edited by The Basilisk, 28 August 2012 - 06:10 AM.
My opinion is to get the mechs in, no matter what. What I ask is what would it take to get the legal rights to show the unseens in MWO? Those are perfect, and my faves. But I'll take the reseens if need be.
There is just too much history tied to those named mechs to just dump them from play. I dont care what they look like I just want to play them. When they put them in the game I would buy a legendary membership, if not I doubt I will even spend the money to upgrade my computer.
I will be pleased with adding Unseen, but if they wanna add Reseen, they can keep them where they are... They're ugly and Marauder is Marauder because it look like Marauder, not something looking totally different with same name. I can have mech with same payload vith PPC variant of catapult, and it looks much more similar to original design.
Btw, there are better reseen designs on forum from one of users than those posted above.
But I must admit that dev's sure can tighten us with their "future announcement". Looking forward too
I would support adding the reseen or unseen. I think some mechs look better in the reseen drawing, some in the unseen. But to me, the important thing is to have a Marauder, Warhammer, Rifleman, Archer, Wolverine, etc.
some people are under the impression that PGI just needs to 'pay a royalty' to get the Unseen in, and that such a fee is trivial.
It's not.
These are competing companies that are well within their right to simply say 'no, never, not for any amount of money'. They are not in the business of collecting tiny royalties, they are selling their own media/toys/mechandise.
Using so-called 'reseen' designs could still land them in lots of legal trouble, because the rights-holding companies can take them to court and make a judge decide- a judge who is not a gamer, game designer, or fan. Even winning the case is a cost PGI probably can't afford (both in terms of money and bad press!)
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