72 replies to this topic

[Coralld]

Mastr, on 18 February 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

For me it really comes down to whether I fight for some little spoiled prince given his rank by birth, or a tried and true warrior who has actually earned it.

To be first Prince of the Federation you MUST have military training for several years.

[Mastr]

Coralld, on 18 February 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

To be first Prince of the Federation you MUST have military training for several years.

Yes only the best training available... Paid for by your family.

But yeah I know what you mean. I just think that there are clear advantages to the clan system, and to the I.S system, as well as drawbacks to both.

Edited by Mastr, 18 February 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[Coralld]

It may be paid for by your family, but if you don't cut it, your not First Prince material, and they go through the same training as every one else does, no exceptions, and no codling.

Edited by Coralld, 18 February 2012 - 03:03 PM.

[Tifalia]

Mastr, on 18 February 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

For me it really comes down to whether I fight for some little spoiled prince given his rank by birth, or a tried and true warrior who has actually earned it.

Oh, I think the almighty C-Bill would be a contributing factor in which to take up arms.

[Alaskan Viking]

SilentObserver, on 16 February 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Case in point

LOL!

Gaius Kerensky, on 16 February 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Through Gameplay (tabletop and Gencon Tournaments) I earned my Bloodname and Rank so I would think I have already embraced the way of my clan and the way of the warrior.....quiaff ?

So, you are a member of the master race because you played a few games? lol

I can't wait for the game to launch and for all of the trashborn to realize they are nothing special and that everyone else has the very same privileges in rank, prestige and everything.

LOL

Edited by Alaskan Viking, 19 February 2012 - 03:03 PM.

[Basch]

To answer the orignal question, i could not live in my clan as a freeborn. Steel vipers have a certin dislike for freeborns and have bared them from being in any warrior class.


*edit: dont know what the hell i was thinking..

Edited by Basch, 19 February 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

guardian wolf, on 17 February 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

How did I misinterpret Darwin's ideas, Darwinism, is the pursuit of furthering evolution, through scientific manipulation, and therefore creating a master race. The biggest example that I can come up with at the moment is Nazi Germany. They worked to create a master race, not for the survival of their population as a whole. We had to come up with the Eugenics program in order to survive, we did not try to create a master race, at least, my clan did not, I cannot speak for the Crusaders in the room. We only tried to survive, and we succeeded, but in order to continue our survival, we needed to continue the Eugenics program. If you cannot reproduce babies fast enough to recover from the amount of dead your taking on, you will die out. So we had to, or risk the loss of everything. You think that I would support this if it wasn't necessary, HELL NO!! I absolutely hate trying to develop a master race, as we need to make sure humanity survives as a whole, not a select portion of it. That is why Alexander left, so that way he could take the most powerful weapons out of the hands of the Inner Sphere before they could come up with reasons to use them. It's like children trying to use guns to kill each other, but the parent quickly grabs them and takes them away, so you have to resort to using sticks to beat each other to death.

and this is what makes RP dicey, I mean c'mon do I treat this seriously? the original topic was if you* could live in clan society. Now if I treat this seriously, how can he respond? he's RP-ing, I'm not D: only thing I can truly take out of this is about misinterpreting darwinism. I think some mod should put forth some RP eitquette rules to save on headaches, most other RP boards have them, so let's get some going here Am I guilty of slipping in and out of some sort of character (seeing as how there really isn't plot nor narrative to act in)? yes, however I think it would benefit all to get at least some basic etiquette going.

*you= a human being living in this moment, posting a game forum called MechWarrior: Online not a clan warrior.

as for misinterpreting Darwinism, it's like GuntherK states, also Darwin said over the course of immense periods of time. Not even forced eugenics falls under Darwinism because Nature is not providing evolutionary pressure to evolve. I'm just tired of seeing society abuse such an elegant explanation, by thinking it can be adapted to anything: from Social Darwinists of the early 20th century, to Nazi Germany, to people now; Social Darwinism != Darwinism, going so far as Social Darwinism is the complete misineterpretation of Darwinism! (if I say Darwinism one more time.... )

Mastr, on 18 February 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

For me it really comes down to whether I fight for some little spoiled prince given his rank by birth, or a tried and true warrior who has actually earned it.

it's funny to watch you clan players say this junk, when to IS it's not the point. How do I explain this; IS pilots understand they are fighting for power-corrupt houses, they hold no pretense - the issue is clan players' refusal to acknowledge that the clan system is as corrupt as the Great Houses. It's like Warhammer 40k almost, there are no good guys.

Gaius Kerensky, on 16 February 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Through Gameplay (tabletop and Gencon Tournaments) I earned my Bloodname and Rank so I would think I have already embraced the way of my clan and the way of the warrior.....quiaff ?

hrm, illustrates a problem of mentality right there. There's no 'National Btech Clan Registry' to prove validity for any sort of conferred rankings! lol, and if MW:O != TT then your claim is even more invalidated. Also, every clanner and their sibko wants to be named Kerensky :\

TL; DR;
we need some RP etiquette rules pronto, Darwinism != Social Darwinism (look both up), just cause you played some Gencon games doesn't make you privileged to anything.

mmmmmm, wall of text

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 19 February 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[CoffiNail]

Basch, on 19 February 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

To answer the orignal question, i could not live in my clan as a freeborn. Steel Cobras have a certin dislike for freeborns and have bared them from being in any warrior class.

Steel Vipers you mean? Most Clans do not like freeborns in their Touman.

[Mastr]

Aaron DeChavilier, my point has been that while there are advantages for the common man in a clan system a lack of total warfare being one of them, there are also disadvantages such as those listed here. Just as there are advantages to being in the I.S.

I was just stating why MY loyalty is to the clan system. I saw that early on in this discussion most of the attention was paid to the negative aspect of clan life and completely ignoring any of its inherent benefits. So in reality I think we are on the same page with this, both sides of the coin have faults me and you just decided to see the value in one system more than the other.

Edited by Mastr, 19 February 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

I can actually agree with and appreciate the organization of Clan society in general, for it appears to be generally more effective and resource-efficient than that of the other factions presented in Battletech; I just don't want to live in it.
They'd have to make me a bondsman, then, for me to do so.

And I'd make a terrible bondsman.

I tend to talk too much and not work enough.

[Baphomech]

The responses to this topic have been thoughtful, varied and quite passionate at times - I thank you all for the current, and future, contributions to this discussion.

[Gremlich Johns]

Mastr, on 19 February 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

Aaron DeChavilier, my point has been that while there are advantages for the common man in a clan system a lack of total warfare being one of them, there are also disadvantages such as those listed here. Just as there are advantages to being in the I.S.

I was just stating why MY loyalty is to the clan system. I saw that early on in this discussion most of the attention was paid to the negative aspect of clan life and completely ignoring any of its inherent benefits. So in reality I think we are on the same page with this, both sides of the coin have faults me and you just decided to see the value in one system more than the other.

^ +1 this

I appreciate how you have differentiated between the game milieu and real life, something not observed by the majority of posters. You also kept your response reasonable, informed and rather polite.

[guardian wolf]

I wasn't RPing as a Clan Warrior, and by the way Aaron, Darwinism, is exactly defined the way I put it, not Social Darwinism, actual Darwinism. The problem with said Darwinism, is the fact that it is aimed at creating a master race, and that was not the original clans intentions. Now while some clans glorify the "Trueborn" warriors, the fact that my loyalty lies with Clan Wolf is in the reason that they do not treat Freeborns like a second class citizen. Ghost Bear has a similar philosophy and I respect them for it. If you must constantly demonize the Clans, for mistakes that we have made, please, direct them at the party that had committed those crimes, it's like me saying that the whole inner sphere was responsible for the Kentares Massacre, where you killed a whole planets population, (though seriously, our mini *wars* that we fought within ourselves, were a lot more destructive in the first exodus, but I digress). So, on the whole, I am apologizing, *yes apologizing*, for losing my head, BUT, you must also realize that I was extremely offended by a false accusation against the Clan I would most certainly like to join when the time comes. So, shall it be a truce for now, until we have a field of battle to settle it on, like true warriors?

Edited by guardian wolf, 20 February 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Mastr, on 19 February 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

Aaron DeChavilier, my point has been that while there are advantages for the common man in a clan system a lack of total warfare being one of them, there are also disadvantages such as those listed here. Just as there are advantages to being in the I.S.

I was just stating why MY loyalty is to the clan system. I saw that early on in this discussion most of the attention was paid to the negative aspect of clan life and completely ignoring any of its inherent benefits. So in reality I think we are on the same page with this, both sides of the coin have faults me and you just decided to see the value in one system more than the other.

agreed, my personal preference is neither. As a fan of this universe, I think all angles are cool, but the pompousness of clan *players* (not characters) warrants a reality check, however impersonal the response may be worded.

guardian wolf, on 20 February 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

I wasn't RPing as a Clan Warrior,

You were using ‘we,’ ‘We clan wolf,’ etc, if you speak for yourself as a person, then say ‘I’. But if you use ‘we’ and go off about clan wolf well to me that sounds like RP. As I said earlier, without RP demarcation how the hell would I know?

guardian wolf, on 20 February 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

and by the way Aaron, Darwinism, is exactly defined the way I put it, not Social Darwinism, actual Darwinism.

I sit corrected, I did not realized that ‘Darwinism’ without prefix was just as off base as ‘Social Darwinism’ (Aaron history knowledge +1 )

guardian wolf, on 20 February 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

The problem with said Darwinism, is the fact that it is aimed at creating a master race, and that was not the original clans intentions.

At this point in the plot, ‘original intentions’ are just that ‘original’ regardless of what they may have become now.

guardian wolf, on 20 February 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

Now while some clans glorify the "Trueborn" warriors, the fact that my loyalty lies with Clan Wolf is in the reason that they do not treat Freeborns like a second class citizen. Ghost Bear has a similar philosophy and I respect them for it.

This sounds much clearer, you enjoy clan x for reason y.

guardian wolf, on 20 February 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

If you must constantly demonize the Clans, for mistakes that we have made, please, direct them at the party that had committed those crimes,

I have not demonized the clans in this thread, I simply pointed out that I felt the clans were a little weak on the writing front (see my first post). As for party that committed crimes? There isn’t any, the clans are a fictitious group from a future that is as fictitious – no one here committed any crimes O.o

guardian wolf, on 20 February 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

it's like me saying that the whole inner sphere was responsible for the Kentares Massacre, where you killed a whole planets population, (though seriously, our mini *wars* that we fought within ourselves, were a lot more destructive in the first exodus, but I digress).

You could argue that atmosphere of constant warfare, bitter inter-nation hatred and lack of negotiation process actually did provide an environment for the massacre to happen. Also I don’t understand the usage of ‘you’ – who this guy? I am a guy posting on a forum about a mechwarrior game, I didn’t order any massacre, neither did anyone else here.

guardian wolf, on 20 February 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

So, on the whole, I am apologizing, *yes apologizing*, for losing my head, BUT, you must also realize that I was extremely offended by a false accusation against the Clan I would most certainly like to join when the time comes. So, shall it be a truce for now, until we have a field of battle to settle it on, like true warriors?

it’s ok, my fandom has gotten the best of me around here as well (looks over some regrettable threads and posts) but I’m trying to move away from RP-ing any sort of character to minimize headaches. I guess I just want to impart the power of terminology with ‘I,’ ‘we,’ and ‘you’ in the context of “is this person RP-ing or not”

I say bring on the RP but lets have some structure to it so it doesn’t look like what a lot of these threads look like now: a hodge-podge of RP and non-RP people going at it

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 20 February 2012 - 01:45 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

One thing that continuously bothers me is when posters who prefer the clans identify themselves, as Aaron de Chevalier has, as "in Wolf Clan".

@Mastr, while I agree with your POV, you could write your responses in the fashion Aaron has suggested.

Guys, in BT/CBT/MW we are not in any real Clan, we are players who have chosen to portray a character in a ficticious society. If you are talking/posting about a specific Clan, post it as "In canon, Wolf Clan would/is/did not do etc" instead of presenting yourselves as actual Clan.

Another easy way to do this is to identify what you are posting as RP (which is what most of you are not doing) as "RP on" and close your post with RP off//.

A lot of the heated discussions have been brought about by posters comments being perceived as arrogant/pompous Clan statements by non-Clan liking posters - and you are not even trying to come off as such,

Aaron's last statement in his post above is what I totally agree with - make sure there is no ambiguity about how or why you are posting. This advice is offered to both Clan and IS oriented players

Do NOT state, for example, "We in Clan Wolf" (there are no Clans yet in the game, BTW, or game for that matter.) unless you are obviously placing your comments in the fantasy milieu of BT as Roleplay.

I prefer the ideals of the Clans for the time in which the action takes place, but it has no place in our current society, so if you see me touting it from here on out, there is going to be "RP on//" tacked on the front of it or I will have tried to couch what I am saying to reflect my scholarly POV on the subject.

Take the time to pay attention to how something was written instead of what has been written - Despite your best intentions to be contributing to the discussion you may inadvertently cause a misperception (as we often see). Words are important.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 22 February 2012 - 06:58 PM.

[Gaius Kerensky]

I get the point here I will just sit back and take a wait and see attitude.... if I like what I see when there IS a game then I will look forward to many hours of getting blasted to bits while I learn how to play.... if I also get to play as a member of clan wolf that would be awesome but I have no problems playing IS or Merc or what ever happens to be out there at the time.....while I might like to embrace the way of the clans IN CHARACTER as I have done in the many incarnations of this game, I also understand that there are other avanues to explore before I make a final decision... who knows in the context of this game I might be perfectly happy to pilot an ON1-K and work with what ever unit I can find a place in.... but again I will know nothing til the game is actually out there to be played

Edited by Gaius Kerensky, 23 February 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[Petroff Northrup]

Probably not, I think I would prefer to live past 30 and not in complete servitude.

[Joanna Conners]

No. Not that I'd want to live in Battletech's vision of the future whatsoever, but if I did I may as well go the merc route; try to stay alive until cashing out, then retire to a tropical island and be waited on by attractive naked people.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Fury1, on 16 February 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

It is the closed minded line of thought and treatment of the lesser that will cause a Clan to fail.

That depends on the Clan you are in. I have no problem with the Clan way of life even if I were to be part of the lower caste. I believe in a system where the best person for a job gets the job & constantly has to prove why he/she is the best or move on.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 04 March 2012 - 06:18 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

Quote

Fury1, on 16 February 2012 - 08:48 PM, said: It is the closed minded line of thought and treatment of the lesser that will cause a Clan to fail.

Do not stick to the fiction, here. We all know (or rather I would HOPE that posters have read as much of the fiction as possible) what the outcomes were up to Jihad and DA (a part of the milieu I choose to ignore).

And one must remember that Clan-oriented players are not really Clansmen - "we" play them only in spirit - as a Role, knowing better than most what the possible outcome is of intractability and resistance to change. Your comment, it seems, assumes that RP will wholly govern "our" gameplay. The fiction is what it is and "we" do not necessarily have to subscribe to everything in canon because evolution will occur and "we" will "write" the new fiction irrespective of canon after a certain point. The IS is likewise not totally bound by canon.

"We" will play MWO to the best of our ability. Should the Clans be a player populated faction, "we", who are portraying the Clans, will NOT fail, unlike in the fiction. "We" will prosper at "your" expense, building coallitions and changing as needs to achieve success. Others have pointed out that there will likely not be something like a planetary league for this version of the game - all the better to just be "Clansmen" and play the way we think they might if things were just a little different.

Previous posters have stated that it is not about the tech for the vast majority of hardcore clan-oriented players - it will be, however, for the rookies to BT/CBT/MW. If they join a clan-oriented faction - one based on love of the milieu, three things are likely: 1) they are clan-oriented; 2) they like the tech and grow to become more clan-oriented; or, 3) they will leave to find a clan-tech oriented faction. Since the game is going to be played by small groups not necessarily under a senior leadership (as would be the case in a Planetary League, which will not be found, as previously indicated by the devs, under MWO), sufficient leeway in the number of possible units will allow both types of player factions to exist as a, say, CSJ, CW, or even a House component. Even if it is going to be a "merc" style game, there will be a minor RP flavor.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 04 March 2012 - 08:28 AM.