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Normal ACs "Bullet" , Ultra ACs "3 Bullets", Rotary AC "stream bullets"


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#21 Mautty the Bobcat

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:19 PM

View PostFelix Dante, on 22 February 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

I think its should be pretty simple... :)

ACs: Pull trigger to fire 1 shot (like a cannon one would say...)
UACs: Pull trigger to fire 1 shot, hold trigger to fire short bursts with a chance to jam.
LBXs: Shotgun Fire, 1 shot per trigger pull.
RACs: Pull trigger to fire 1 Shot, hold trigger till you run out of ammo or you jam the gun.

You're treating this like an FPS game though...when mechs have multiple weapons setup to a single 'trigger pull', having click and hold will become overly stressful mid battle. I'd rather have the option of being able to select a weapon and switch up the firing mode, which is something that should be done out of battle or during a reprieve in my opinion.

#22 Karl Streiger

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:22 PM

While you are right when using the AC in the same group as other weapon it isn't useable to fire the weapon and hold the trigger - in this cases the weapon has to be switched to Burst Fire Mode. But when using as single weapon semi and automatic fire should become available - has to be the same as with pulse weapons.

#23 MaddMaxx

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 10:34 AM

View PostMautty the Bobcat, on 22 February 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

You're treating this like an FPS game though...when mechs have multiple weapons setup to a single 'trigger pull', having click and hold will become overly stressful mid battle. I'd rather have the option of being able to select a weapon and switch up the firing mode, which is something that should be done out of battle or during a reprieve in my opinion.


It is an intricate part of the Piloting Skill. What should be available is Group Select, then a click/switch to allow Single weapon select, inside any Groups selected, then a click/switch that sets the individual weapons current rate of fire, all done with ease and indicates what mode via color coding as said modes change.

If anyone can't handle dealing with such a "complex mechanic" like that during real Battle conditions, perhaps their House has need for more Techs. As in, the warehouse cleaning type lad/gals. :)

Edited by MaddMaxx, 23 February 2012 - 10:34 AM.


#24 HATER 1

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:38 PM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 21 February 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Why have AC-canons to use burst mode only?

A idea i once had was that a AC should be able to use semi-automatic fire, burst or full automatic mode (a assault rifle in Mech size)
the clips of the enforcer or hatchetman are described similar to todays assault rifle clips.
I would explain it in this way - i hope i get the point: thats the part that makes me always confused when writing fan fic.
in battletech tt the damage of a ac is based on the damage it is able to deal within 10 secs - or it could be the damage that is dealt by a single "shot" - who played some solaris iv matches knew that the AC fires four times when a PPC fires only 3 times
So i think that the damage in TT is based on the idea that the damage dealt by a AC is based on the potential damage of a single shot - or clip
That means: a AC-5 with 5 rounds in each clip needs 2.5sec to switch between them - no matter how many rounds you used.
AC 20 need 5 or 7,5sec to switch between the clips because of the size / ammount of the shells or the weight of the ammunition fed to handle those clips.

The clip size could be one or two shots, too - because large caliber guns like a 120mm had for 1 ton of ammunition should about 44 rounds. While i still believe that the Tomodzuru of a Hunchback should be a single large caliber shell - with a assistant rocket propelled charge - to get more speed into the projectile.
The Pontiac 100 on the other hand, with 100 low damage rounds in each clip must become fun to use it in single mode.


this is a pretty good example of what AC's are explained as. Auto Cannon means that it is a fully automatic, auto-loading cannon. it throws a stream of hurt down range, as opposed to one single shot. bore sizes do range significantly within a given class, because the damage done after 10 second is what counts in standard TT rules. mind you, the TT rules are all abstracts of these variables from machine to machine.

the thing about UAC's and RACs is they are just spitting more fun downrange in the same alottment of time.... the UAC's just have a higher cyclic rate than a standard AC and the RAC's have multiple barrels. ;)

LBX AC's are smooth bore, and have the ability to use cluster shots. they still spit a stream of shots regardless of ammunition type used.

EDIT: and, for reference, both UAC's and RAC's can be unjammed mid-battle.

Edited by HATER-1, 23 February 2012 - 08:56 PM.


#25 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:12 PM

Well, the description of all autocannons is that they fire bursts - variants like ultras and rotaries just fire at higher rates.

In [url="http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/2896-ammunition-loads-in-mwo/page__st__40__p__81005#entry81005"]an old thread[/url], someone had dug up an old BT reference which stated that each autocannon "round" was actually a "cassette" of several shells, intended to be fired as part of a single "burst". Presumably, the "modified feed system" of the ultra AC allows it to cycle these "cassettes' twice as fast as an ordinary autocannon, though the "redesigned ammunition" (which is not compatable with other AC models) suggests that the cyclical rate of fire is also double that of a standard AC.

It raises an interesting question, since we have single-shot tank cannons capable of delivering extremely accurate shots across long ranges, why are BT autocannons focused on firing bursts of fire at shorter effective ranges? I haven't seen an official answer in canon, but there's enough official "fluff" that I've been able to cobble something together that seems logically consistent, at least in my mind:
  • Modern tank guns, such as the M256 mounted on the M1A1/M1A2, are designed to fire fin-stabilized shells at extremely high velocities. (The earlier M1 had a smaller rifled cannon, which would suffer excessive bore erosion from firing such high velocity ammunition). This is because the current preferred choice for defeating modern armor plating is APFSDS (armor-piercing fin-stabilized discarding-sabot) rounds, which fire high-density tungsten steel or depleted uranium long rod penetrators, which are kinetic kill rounds with roughly a 20:1 Length:Dia ratio, and which are designed to penetrate armor and destroy the internal systems and crew of armored vehicles through a combination of overpressure and spall damage. Since these munitions need to travel at extreme velocity, they destroy rifled barrels quickly, hence the need for fin-stabilization. They are exclusively anti-armor weapons, with little usefulness against soft targets.
  • HEAT (high explosive anti-tank) shaped-charge munitions are also still in use, and while less effective against modern armor, they are more effective against a variety of targets. Shaped charge warheads use a directed explosion to push a soft metal core into a high-velocity jet of metal that behaves as a fluid and bores through armor, doing a combination of direct damage, spall, and overpressure to the contents of an armored vehicle. While HEAT rounds don't need to be fired at high velocity to be effective, they don't function as well when spun by rifling, so using fins for stabilization and firing them from a smooth bore is also desirable.
  • HESH (high explosive squash-head) rounds have mostly fallen out of favor for use against armored vehicles. They were designed at plastique munitions with a delayed fuse at the base, and were designed not to penetrate armor, but to shake loose chunks of spall from the inner surfaces of armor plates, destroying the systems and occupants of an armored vehicle. Modern armor has made them almost completely obsolete, but they still function well against soft targets.
  • Modern armor is made of of multiple layers of homogeneous steel, with spacing in between. These gaps are effective in defeating HESH rounds, as the spall from the outer armor layer simply stops at the next ayer down, and also help redirect the metal "jets" of HEAT rounds, and can also take APFSDS rounds off course. Sometimes these gaps are filled with other materials, like amorphous ceramics (effective at redirecting HEAT rounds due to their irregular molecular structure) and kevlar and heavy metal mesh (good for catching kinetic projectiles and spall). Additional "spall liners" inside the vehicle catch spall in the the case of an armor breach. This combination is extremely effective, and to continue with the M1 tank example, in the first Gulf War, there were recorded combat instances of tanks absorbing multiple HEAT rounds with negligable damage. Even the M256 cannon, firing high-velocity APFSDS munitions, has difficulty defeating the armor of the M1 Abrams tank, except by firing multiple shots at a low angle on incidence into the same area of flank armor.
  • Reactive armor is made up of plates of steel armor with explosives sandwiched in between. They are designed to detonate on impact, propelling a HEAT round away from the armored vehicle. Some variants have been developed to defeat SPFSDS munitions by seperating with a shearing motion, breaking off the penetrators, but are less useful against HEAT rounds. Both types are problematic when functioning with mechanized infantry support, since they tend to create lots of shrapnel around the armored vehicle, so they aren't used all the time. However, they have driven the design of HEAT warheads in missiles to change. Most warheads now are made up of staged warheads, a small initial warhead to set off the reactive armor, and a larger secondary to penetrate the main armor of the vehicle.
Skipping over to the BT universe, armor technology isn't conceptually different, but its a lot better.
[quote name=']Standard BattleMech armor is composed of several layers providing various degrees of protection and support. The first layer is extremely strong steel' date=' the result of crystal alignment and radiation treatment, which is also very brittle. The second layer is a ceramic, cubic boron nitride, which combined with a web of artificial diamond fibers acts as a backstop to the steel layer. These two layers rest atop a titanium alloy honeycomb structure which provides support, and a layer of self-sealing polymer sealant which allows for space and underwater operations.[/quote']
Now, if the gun on a modern M1A1 tank can't defeat the armor of the M1A1 tank in a single hit, it can be surmised that firing a single shot at a battlemech with any sort of conventional gun, however large, is going to be equally problematic, and probably moreso, especially considering that each "point" of armor is effectively another sandwiched layer of all these materials. 20 points of armor is a lot to take out!

But maybe firing a burst is the answer to this problem, because as each successive since each shell should be able to punch out at least a layer of armor, and the subsequent shot would then be able to defeat the next layer, and so on. The HEAP rounds make sense in this context, as they could penetrate the outer steel, then detonate to shred the underlying ceramic and diamond fibers, making way for the next shell to punch through - and they'd also be effective against other types of targets. I'd also conjecture that missiles are launched as groups for the same reasons - a single large warhead might not penetrate as multiple hits, each tearing off successive layers of ablative armor. (Presumably Gauss Rifles can just produce such ungodly velocities that they can penetrate through brute force - though notably, the Gauss weighs as much as an AC/20 and penetrates less armor.)

Also, only Ultra ACs are noted as having smooth bores, which assumes the others are rifled and therefore fire at a lower velocity. That makes sense in a way, since lower-velocity shells would produce less recoil for a given size shell, and therefore wouldn't tend to disrupt point-of-aim as much, leading to tighter groupings. And tight groupings would be essential, since spreading shots wouldn't lead to deep penetration of armor. This could very well explain the reduced range of BT autocannons compared to real-world tank guns, since the maximum effective range is the max range where shells fall in a tight group. Larger cannons would produce more recoil, and ergo they only throw tight groupings at closer ranges (maybe the AC/10 and AC/20 could be beefed up to counteract this effect, but it would probably become too massive to be useful in a vehicle or 'mech.)

Then the question of why can't an AC just fire single shots out to longer range, and why aren't they continuous feed instead of firing from these "cassettes" that have to reload? My thought is that perhaps the autocannons are designed without an interrupter - after all, they already have some jamming issues, and that additional complexity might increase the propensity for jams! In that case, having a continuous feed would prevent the gun from stopping until all ammo in the 'mech was consumed, and there would be a good chance of an internal explosion from the cannon chamber overheating and "cooking off" shells - no bueno! In the case of the RAC, this is avoided by using multiple barrels, so no individual barrel heats up as much, and in the ultra AC, the smooth bore likely cuts down on heating the barrel from friction and perhaps part of the unique ammunition design helps dissipate some waste heat - though as someone noted above, ultras do build up heat twice as fast when in rapid-fire modes. Also, both RACs and ultras have feed systems redesigned to cycle ammo "cassettes" more quickly than a standard AC.

So, coming off this lengthy segue, in terms of performance, I think all ACs should fire bursts, as they are described in canon. Ultra ACs should fire the same number of "shots" per burst, but the burst should take less time, and the next "burst" should load faster, giving them double the rate of fire of a standard AC. RACs aren't really a concern yet, but I'd figure on the same idea, just working at 6x instead of 2x. LBX autocannons would function as standard autocannons, but have better range and be able to use "cluster" munitions.

#26 neodym

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:34 PM

I think Mech Warrior 3 had done it best,I hate the ballistic weapons in mw4 its boring,I want to see big shells and bullets not instantly flying to target,each bullet/shell separately

also I loved how LBX was basicly shotgun,and it really fired alot projectiles at once.

whatever will it be,I hope it will be like mw3,they perfected it 14 years ago,then took step back with mw4 I hope for great return of wicked ballistics in MW:O

#27 Valdor Constantine

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:20 PM

when reading the novels or playing TT this is kinda what i picture in my head for AC burst

http://youtu.be/La9pkCKk7Zw

Edited by Valdor Constantine, 24 February 2012 - 07:21 PM.


#28 EDMW CSN

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 12:16 AM

ACs = Single burst of shell.
Alternate mode = switch ammo.
Caseless AC = no switch ammo.

ACs have it going for them that they can use a wider range of specialty ammo.

Caseless ammo let's you cramp a few more shots per ton, downside that you can't switch ammo types.
AP or Precision, though heavy, are for those trump card or ACe in the hole moments

Nobody likes an AC shot that ignores through your armor and go straight to the engine or a big AC-20 shell guiding itself to your cockpit.
Flip side they are cheap AC-5 = 125,000 C-bills. The Ultra variant is nearly twice the price.

Ultra AC = Single burst of shells,
Alternate mode = double tap or longer burst.
Chance of jam.

Rotary = single burst of shells.
Alternate mode = automatic.
Chance of jam.

LB autocannon = single shot.
Alternate mode = switch ammo
Slug ammo for direct hits and scatter ammo for shotgun ability.


Anyhow if using the Marauder AC-5 as a standard, the AC-5 fires a 120mm cannon in a 3 round burst.

So an AC-10 would be 6 120mm shells and the AC-20 would be 12 120mm HEAT shells.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 25 February 2012 - 12:24 AM.


#29 guardian wolf

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 08:25 PM

@ Solis

You forgot that current modern armor, especially the Abrams main battle tank, uses DU as an armor, which was why when a lot of people went to salvage tanks during the Gulf War, came back messed up, because of that DU. That is why you can fire an RPG at the rear of an Abrams, and it won't even dent the armor, as the damn things are nearly indestructible, which is why they stopped mass producing them.

#30 Solis Obscuri

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 09:59 PM

View Postguardian wolf, on 25 February 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

@ Solis

You forgot that current modern armor, especially the Abrams main battle tank, uses DU as an armor, which was why when a lot of people went to salvage tanks during the Gulf War, came back messed up, because of that DU. That is why you can fire an RPG at the rear of an Abrams, and it won't even dent the armor, as the damn things are nearly indestructible, which is why they stopped mass producing them.

The DU is a mesh, isn't it? I didn't list DU explicitly, but I've heard it's in the Abrams. Not sure about other tank designs. Didn't want to be too specific to one vehicle...

#31 guardian wolf

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 10:58 AM

No I believe it is like the standard plate armor, but what makes it so strong is that when a high velocity shell hits it, the metal completely becomes more dense, and therefore stops the shell, but it is extremely soft when not under the high pressures of a say a shell impacting the metal, that's why when you move the plating around, you'd better not drop it, as you'll damage it and expose yourself to that DU, which messes you up. Kinda ironic huh?

#32 Karl Streiger

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:50 AM

The description of the effects of recoil towards the precision and the ability to deal damage is similar to my explanation on board when somebody ask me: "So i'm not able to hit that enemy mech with my machine gun at 90m? - They have ranges of 400m and more"
My answer is always: "So you are able to hit a target at 400m with a machine gun - but are you able to hurt it? The to-hit modfier of Tabletop indicates that you are able to hit AND damage a enemy."

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The example with the clip-size of the different types plus the need of minimal dispersion to hurt enemy armor sounds logical.The AC 5 has a lower RoF between the shots maybe 0.3 sec - and need 1sec to reload a new clip - The AC 10 has a higher RoF but it last longer to reload the clips.
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The LBX however should be a gun firing only a single shell. Because Large-Bore - Extended Range. The standard projectlie has a larger caliber and more velocity as a normal AC projectile - while the Cluster spread after the muzzle creating a really deadly weapon at short range and a less effective weapon at larger ranges.

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Still have one question - what about different fluff of ACs? Will they have impact on the game?
* The Chem-Set of the Demolisher are fluffed as 185mm cannon - TRO 3039
* The Hunchback gun is named as Big Bore





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