34 replies to this topic

[Lawrence Elsa]

Ashla Mason, on 19 October 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Also to clarify a point: sakahn Phelan Ward was ordered to take his forces into exile by Ulric.

ah, thank you

[Thorn Hallis]

Jaroth Winson, on 19 October 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

I would usually be more polite about this, but I am in work & it is too early for this ****. What nonsense are you talking about?

My bet is he's referring to the story of Ghost Bear Legacy.

[Jaroth Corbett]

If I remember correctly, it was Jade Wolves. That Clan lasted a whole afternoon.

Nearly got annihilated by the Bears! You keep that dream alive son. You keep dreaming.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 21 October 2012 - 04:25 AM.

[Bianca Flowers]

remember, you have to pronounce that clan in a Chicago accent as 'Da Bears'

[Sidney]

Lawrence Elsa, on 19 October 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

here's a summary of what I was told:

More or less. I'm going to nitpick a bit though

Lawrence Elsa, on 19 October 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

Jade Falcons said it was Clan Wolf's fault for accepting the terms of the Trial on Tukayyid and challenged the leadership qualities of IlKahn (leader of both clan wolf, and all clans at the time) Ulrich Kerensky.

The Jade Falcons took the role of persecutor on behalf of the Grand Council. The initial charges originated with Vlad of the Wards- which I suspect was Ulric's plan. It's not stated anywhere though that Ulric intended for Vlad to do this- but his locking down the Ward Bloodname, taunting Vlad over it, and later 'grooming' Vlad all point (in my opinion) that Ulric knew exactly what Vlad was going to do and set it up.

Lawrence Elsa, on 19 October 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

Ulric disagreed with their claims, but knew that if he had used his position of power to deny their Trial of Refusal, he wouldn't be seen as a leader who made decisions for the good of the clans, but rather the good of his own interests.

I think whoever told you this was a bit mixed up. Ulric knew he could trump the charges easily in the Wolf Council- which is where it originated. Instead, he took it to the Grand Council under the claim that it would eventually come up there as well.

Ulric, however, engineered the Refusal War to preserve the truce- Phelan (as I recall) states that Ulric knew the Falcons would volunteer to be the prosecutores for the trial,

Also, how he was seen by the others wasn't already pretty poor due to the Truce, he was a Warden, and jealousy over Wolf's achievements during the Invasion. He was, afterall, promoted to ilKhan in an attempt to slow down Clan Wolf.

Lawrence Elsa, on 19 October 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

Therefore, he bid all of clan wolf against all of Jade Falcon.

Ulric didn't bid anything. He was convicted of ********, and stripped of the ilKhanship as punishment.

He then challenged the decision through a "Trial of Refusal" which would have placed him against opponents at a ratio of the votes that found him guilty versus those that found him innocent. It would have likely been bid down from there.

Natasha, per Ulric's plan, pledged Clan Wolf as any allied party- which meant that Natasha would have to 'bid' what she was defending with. Ulric made the bid on her behalf (although Natasha was present). He then declared the bid- the entire Clan- turning a simple one on one trial into a war that had more than a dozen Galaxies (between the two) pledged to it.

It was unheard of in Clan history, and meant that one Clan was going to die.

As Ulric intended.

Lawrence Elsa, on 19 October 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

Clan Wolf was able to win on Planet Ironhold, and effectively won the trial, however, Ulric Kerensky's Keshik (command lance so-to-say) was ambushed by a group of Jade Falcon mechs, Killing Ilkahn Ulric Kerensky, and Violating Clan Laws of Combat.

It was Wotan, not Ironhold. At no point did Clan Wolf 'win'.

Some people on the Battletech forums disagree on this- in fact, I just had a long debate about it- but suffice it to say that Clan Wolf lost. The point of contention was whether Clan Wolf lost the moment Ulric died (I think one of the telling indications is that Phelan states the Falcons won when they killed Ulric on Wotan) or if it was 'legal'.

In any case, saKhan Chistu 'murdered' Ulric by ambushing him after challenging him to a one on one duel. With Ulric dead, the Falcons claimed victory- and claimed Clan Wolf as 'isorla', Absorbing the Clan.

Lawrence Elsa, on 19 October 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

from what I remember, the Jade Falcon attackers where killed for their crimes, however, it was considered that Clan Wolf had no choice but to forfeit their position in the trial, and join the cause of the Jade Falcons. Vladimir ward was promoted to Kahn of Clan Wolf, while Phalen Kell fled to the Inner Sphere with any who beleived that the Warden way was more important than following orders, while Vladimir Ward bit his tongue and accepted the motion

Chistu subsequently gathered the Jade Falcon Council together and Abjured Phelan and his forces- technically now Jade Flacons- from the Clan.

When Vlad was receovered a few days after the battle, he had evidence that Chistu played dirty. He used this as leverage, playing the two Jade Falcon Khans against eachother, as they were both planning on becoming the new ilKhan. Vlad initially received permission from Crichell to challenge Chistu to a Trial of Grievance (standard Trial) to avenge Ulric. Vlad instead challenged Chistu over claiming Wolf as isorla... which Crichell revoked. Chistu, now knowing there was evidence against him- and Crichell was gunning for him- issues permission instead in the hope of killing Vlad and making the evidence 'disappear'.

With Chistu's death, Vlad Refuted the Absorption through isorla. Therefor, Crichell had Clan Wolf (as isorla) but couldn't Absorb it. He instead broke it off into a 'new' Clan called 'Jade Wolf' which was no longer tainted with Ulric's treason. Vlad, enraged, 'bit his tongue' for all of two weeks while things got sorted out. At the first chacne he got, killed Crichell in a standard Trial of Grievance and subsequently broke the entire Clan Wolf forces off of Jade Wolf into a 'new' Clan Wolf- recreating it.

Clan Wolf, now reborn, was free of Ulric's treason.

Phelan and his forces, meanwhile, were still Abjured and technically no longer Jade Falcon (or Clan Wolf). They operate out of the Inner Sphere, trying to protect it- as Ulric intended.

The Falcons, no longer in any shape to re-invade the Inner Sphere, no longer were looking to revoke the Truce...as Ulric intended.

So...who won?

It depends, really, how you view it.

Jade Falcons: They won the Trial, killed both Ulric and Natasha, and exiled Phelan. They removed a significant obstacle in the way of invading the Inner Sphere, and effectively destroyed what (little) Warden support remained in Clan Wolf.

Clan Wolf: It died. That's a loss, no matter how you want to split it. Still- Vlad and the rest of the 'Wolf Supremacists' (Clan Wolf warriors that have diehard loyalties to the Clan before politics- though most are Crusader) managed to take control of a 'new' Clan Wolf- reborn and no longer suffering under Ulric and the Warden's shadow. They were, essentially, finally given a chance at life.

Ulric/Phelan: Ulric's plan went off without a hitch- so you could arguably consider it a victory for Ulric. He never intended to 'win'- he sent Phelan on a one way ticket to the Inner Sphere, erasing the data on his Warships to prevent them from ever coming back. He crippled the Falcons and prevented a resumption of the Invasion- as he wanted. The only thing that didn't go according to plan was Vlad's defiance after Ulric's death: Ulric presented two options for Vlad- "Join the Falcons when we lose, or remain a Wolf and join Phelan in the Inner Sphere after I die".

Vlad found a third option.

[Jaroth Corbett]

You were going great until this:

Quote

It was Wotan, not Ironhold. At no point did Clan Wolf 'win'.

That is incorrect. Wolf won a LOT of the early engagements. This can be confirmed in the scenario pack The Falcon & The Wolf as well as the novel, Bred for War.

Also Ulric prompted Vlad to come up with said third option.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 27 October 2012 - 04:23 AM.

[Bianca Flowers]

the other major long term effect was the end of Zellbringen for the Jade Falcons except as part of ritual combats (like Trials or Bloodright or Refusal). It took about 5 years to change, but look at what they did on Coventry just a year later, and how quickly they smashed the Steel Vipers in their Occupation Zone in 3062, doing to the Vipers what Wolf had done to them in 3057: a single mech would issue a challenge, and be fried by an entire star.


That chnage in style is what lead the Vipers, in their bitterness, to launch the 'Inner Sphere Clans are tainted' campaign that lead, inevitably, to the destruction of the Clans in the Wars of Reaving

Edited by Bianca Flowers, 23 October 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[Shedu]

Sidney, on 22 October 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

More or less. I'm going to nitpick a bit though



The Jade Falcons took the role of persecutor on behalf of the Grand Council. The initial charges originated with Vlad of the Wards- which I suspect was Ulric's plan. It's not stated anywhere though that Ulric intended for Vlad to do this- but his locking down the Ward Bloodname, taunting Vlad over it, and later 'grooming' Vlad all point (in my opinion) that Ulric knew exactly what Vlad was going to do and set it up.



I think whoever told you this was a bit mixed up. Ulric knew he could trump the charges easily in the Wolf Council- which is where it originated. Instead, he took it to the Grand Council under the claim that it would eventually come up there as well.

Ulric, however, engineered the Refusal War to preserve the truce- Phelan (as I recall) states that Ulric knew the Falcons would volunteer to be the prosecutores for the trial,

Also, how he was seen by the others wasn't already pretty poor due to the Truce, he was a Warden, and jealousy over Wolf's achievements during the Invasion. He was, afterall, promoted to ilKhan in an attempt to slow down Clan Wolf.



Ulric didn't bid anything. He was convicted of ********, and stripped of the ilKhanship as punishment.

He then challenged the decision through a "Trial of Refusal" which would have placed him against opponents at a ratio of the votes that found him guilty versus those that found him innocent. It would have likely been bid down from there.

Natasha, per Ulric's plan, pledged Clan Wolf as any allied party- which meant that Natasha would have to 'bid' what she was defending with. Ulric made the bid on her behalf (although Natasha was present). He then declared the bid- the entire Clan- turning a simple one on one trial into a war that had more than a dozen Galaxies (between the two) pledged to it.

It was unheard of in Clan history, and meant that one Clan was going to die.

As Ulric intended.



It was Wotan, not Ironhold. At no point did Clan Wolf 'win'.

Some people on the Battletech forums disagree on this- in fact, I just had a long debate about it- but suffice it to say that Clan Wolf lost. The point of contention was whether Clan Wolf lost the moment Ulric died (I think one of the telling indications is that Phelan states the Falcons won when they killed Ulric on Wotan) or if it was 'legal'.

In any case, saKhan Chistu 'murdered' Ulric by ambushing him after challenging him to a one on one duel. With Ulric dead, the Falcons claimed victory- and claimed Clan Wolf as 'isorla', Absorbing the Clan.



Chistu subsequently gathered the Jade Falcon Council together and Abjured Phelan and his forces- technically now Jade Flacons- from the Clan.

When Vlad was receovered a few days after the battle, he had evidence that Chistu played dirty. He used this as leverage, playing the two Jade Falcon Khans against eachother, as they were both planning on becoming the new ilKhan. Vlad initially received permission from Crichell to challenge Chistu to a Trial of Grievance (standard Trial) to avenge Ulric. Vlad instead challenged Chistu over claiming Wolf as isorla... which Crichell revoked. Chistu, now knowing there was evidence against him- and Crichell was gunning for him- issues permission instead in the hope of killing Vlad and making the evidence 'disappear'.

With Chistu's death, Vlad Refuted the Absorption through isorla. Therefor, Crichell had Clan Wolf (as isorla) but couldn't Absorb it. He instead broke it off into a 'new' Clan called 'Jade Wolf' which was no longer tainted with Ulric's treason. Vlad, enraged, 'bit his tongue' for all of two weeks while things got sorted out. At the first chacne he got, killed Crichell in a standard Trial of Grievance and subsequently broke the entire Clan Wolf forces off of Jade Wolf into a 'new' Clan Wolf- recreating it.

Clan Wolf, now reborn, was free of Ulric's treason.

Phelan and his forces, meanwhile, were still Abjured and technically no longer Jade Falcon (or Clan Wolf). They operate out of the Inner Sphere, trying to protect it- as Ulric intended.

The Falcons, no longer in any shape to re-invade the Inner Sphere, no longer were looking to revoke the Truce...as Ulric intended.

So...who won?

It depends, really, how you view it.

Jade Falcons: They won the Trial, killed both Ulric and Natasha, and exiled Phelan. They removed a significant obstacle in the way of invading the Inner Sphere, and effectively destroyed what (little) Warden support remained in Clan Wolf.

Clan Wolf: It died. That's a loss, no matter how you want to split it. Still- Vlad and the rest of the 'Wolf Supremacists' (Clan Wolf warriors that have diehard loyalties to the Clan before politics- though most are Crusader) managed to take control of a 'new' Clan Wolf- reborn and no longer suffering under Ulric and the Warden's shadow. They were, essentially, finally given a chance at life.

Ulric/Phelan: Ulric's plan went off without a hitch- so you could arguably consider it a victory for Ulric. He never intended to 'win'- he sent Phelan on a one way ticket to the Inner Sphere, erasing the data on his Warships to prevent them from ever coming back. He crippled the Falcons and prevented a resumption of the Invasion- as he wanted. The only thing that didn't go according to plan was Vlad's defiance after Ulric's death: Ulric presented two options for Vlad- "Join the Falcons when we lose, or remain a Wolf and join Phelan in the Inner Sphere after I die".

Vlad found a third option.

I would also point out that IIRC that since Vlad's new Clan Wolf didn't take part in Tukaryd and won their trial in the SL's challenge to the invasion that he claimed that meant that Clan Wolf alone could still invade the Inner Sphere.
Course it has been a decade since I last read the novels so I could be slightly off.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Sort of. Vlad did not mention Tukkayid. He simply stated that Clan Wolf abstained from the vote about the Great Refusal & that his forces did not lose in their fight with IS (they fought to a draw) therefore the matter did not bind them. He did mention that he would adhere to the Truce of Tukkayid which still had seven years to go, but after that time, he would most definitely be invading. (of course things did not turn out that way......)

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 27 October 2012 - 04:22 AM.

[Fiachdubh]

Wolves lost. They may of reversed that Jade Wolf nonsense later but they still lost the refusal war itself.

Stormwolf, on 18 October 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

There might be some spoilers in Wars of Reaving concerning Clan Burrock...

Wars of Reaving has some interesting hints and spoilers to say about more than one supposedly extinct clan...

Edited by Fiachdubh, 28 October 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Fiachdubh, on 28 October 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Wolves lost. They may of reversed that Jade Wolf nonsense later but they still lost the refusal war itself.

That was a loss on paper. There were still Wolves alive & fighting. The Falcons decided to bypass engaging them in combat by calling the Trial of Refusal a Trial of Absorption, then Abjurring the Wolves they CHOSE not to fight. Remember as per the rules, the accused (Ulric) had the right to declare the forces he would use in the Refusal. Since he bid ALL of Clan Wolf, that meant that ALL of Clan Wolf would have had to be defeated to

1. declare the Refusal won by the Falcons &

2. declare the Absorption

which is why they used that Abjured nonsense.

Also had the Falcons actually won the Refusal-turned-Absorption that would mean that the Bloodheritages of the Wolves would become Falcon property, including those of the Kerenskys. Had they truly won, they would NEVER have given that up. If you call that a victory, it is one on paper alone, especially since the actual charge that started the Refusal War was fake.

Adding to that, according to the Wolf Sourcebook:



An absorption is a variation of a refusal that MUST be voted on by the Grand Council & pass with a UNANIMOUS vote. None of which occurred because they would have had to fight EVERY other clan who would have wanted the Kerensky Bloodheritage.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 28 October 2012 - 03:18 PM.

[Mishkin]

Quote

[color=#959595]There might be some spoilers in Wars of Reaving concerning Clan Burrock...[/color]

Burrock is on the road to independence and banditry once again! Sorry Star Adders, it was fun while it lasted...

[Pagan Chilton]

Surly the point of this is that the Wolves were Wardens, and Jade were Crusaders. Jade Falcon may have won the battle on
[color="#000000"]Tukayyid, but the wolves survived as a mercenary group. So the Wolves stopped the invasion of the innersphere by a year, and helped the Terren's prepare for the new invasion. [/color]

[Jaroth Corbett]

Dude check the date on threads before you post. Last action here was in 2012.

[CyclonerM]

Closing ..